temperature cabinet solution?


SonGoku

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Been looking into to an active controlled (both temperature and himidity wise) cabinet humidor on and off for quite some years now. Was very keen on either an Avallo or Aristocrat temperature controlled cabinet but I remember writing them +5 years ago, asking if they ship to europe (I live in Denmark). But never got an asnwer back. They probably didn't answer as the shipping costs would be more than the cabinet itself. Then I came a cross a german and a italian manufacturer (just can't remember their names right now) but the cabinet were too small to hold my collection which only grows bigger each year. Then I thought I would just buy an old cabinet and rebuild it for humidor use myself but I gotta be realistic about my carpenting skills which are zero to none. And besides I don't have the tools for it either. Then thought of using a cooled wine cabinet adding some kind of active humidity control. But after reading several post by "PigFish" on the subject I can understand it's not as simple as to just adding a humidity system to it??

So was wondering if there is any commercial build solution beign sold here in europe?? I can't seem to find anything online. I'm looking for a set and forget style temperature controlled cabinet that holds at least 60-70 boxes (100 would probably be better due to the well known expansion of ones collection). Looking for a steady temperature of around 17-18 degrees C and a steady RH of about 67%. Should have a kind of build in fan system for air cirkulation. As for the inside of the cabinet I don't know weather to look for mahogany or spanish ceder tree. Also thaought that spansih ceder (cedrela ordorata) was the way to go because of it's natural humidity attributes and the oder would scare away tobacco beetles. But then today I read somewhere that the oder is to strong a will affect the tobacco too much taste wise and that mahogany is the way to go. What do you guys think? What kind of wood would you choose and why?

It rarely gets extremely hot here in Denmark so maybe a not temperature controlled cabinet is the solution. But again I don't really see many options being sold here in europe. Adorini from discount humidors.com probably being the only one. But I've read mixed review of their products and I would rather spend more and get quality and temperature control instead and get a quality product that cares for my collection the right way including in the summer months.

Getting tired of all these cooladors building up. It bothers me aesthetically and it's constant work playing the cigar box and cooler tetris checking for humidity levels of each cooler. Also a more constant environtment for the cigars is better I believe.

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I would love to spend a lot of time on this but just don't have it today…

Why don't you convert a wine cooler?

I understand the need for a completed project, but when budget or other factors get between you and your dream, why let them hold you back?

Wine coolers are not really simple to convert, but I work with people all over the place to assist them converting them to successful humidors.

Now on the other hand, if you don't need temperature control, then don't mess with it. Temperature control is both the best and worst aspect of humidor control. It is best for people like me and my customers that require a solution to control high heat situations. I have also mastered the "high" humidity problems that are prevalent in some parts of the world during their wet seasons. But if you don't have those problems, then why create others by attempting to control moderate temperature?

The fact is, some people don't need this type of system. If you don't, don't waste your money! That is the best advice I can give you.

If you are interested in converting a cooler and have more specific questions you can find my email in my profile or carry on the conversation here so others can follow…

Cheers, Piggy

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The PDF really should be updated. The basics are there but that was a primitive solution (based on the technology that I currently use). The real precision that I get today, if that is what you are after, comes with better controls and better design. The controls in that solution are lousy, but it was all that I had. The design, while it is sound and I continue to use it for those on a rather tight budget, has flaws that are only solved when one takes specific measures to isolate the cooling coil better.

While I have been able to get better results by having better controllers built for me, it is only part of the design. The real complexity, and cost of converting a cooler is based on a precision isolation solution. I often custom design these in CAD and am forced to make them on a CNC.

Wine coolers are usually extremely primitive and poorly designed. We have to work around all those flaws to turn them into something that they were never supposed to be. Sometimes, based on the cooler, it is not too hard. I try to stick with those specific coolers if they are available within the country that the customer resides.

Once I have designed a cooler, recreating it makes for a lesser expensive project for all. I keep all my CAD designs and machine programming and simply produce the same parts. If a past customer has specific problems or ideas I may update the design with the new ideas.

Look forward to your email. -Ray

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Figured I would rather write here, so that other members might get benefit from it too. Mostly during a year temperature where I live is not a problem. But during 1-2 months a year it is not uncommon for temperature getting to high for cigar storage. For instance yesterday the temperature in my humidors was 26°C (78.8°F) and it can get higher than that. So I figure for optimal storage year round a temperature controlled solution desirable.

Ok, so I looked at an ageing wine cabinet which sound as a better solution to a wine cooler as it meets the following criterias which works well for wines as well as cigars.

  1. Constant temperature
  2. Vibrationless (uses a compressor for cooling)
  3. No light
  4. No smell
  5. The right humidity (should emulate a wine celler which has a humidity level between 50 - 75%, lower levels off course is way too low for cigar storage)

Been looking a a Climadiff DVA305PA+ (http://climadiff.com/en/ageing-wine-cellar-preservation-of-wine-model-climadiff-DVA305PA+.php). A company that only make wine storage products and they seem to have a very detailed approach to it. Which makes me think it must be a quality product?? Gotta see if I can find some online reviews. Anyway seems like very few adjustments are needed to make it optimal for cigar storage. The follwing are some of the benefits it has, as I see it, when it comes to cigar storage:

  • Temperature adjustment between 8-18°C (46.4 - 64.4°F). 18°C seems perfect for cigars storage
  • oderless environment as it uses a charcoal filter to filter out any oders from the outside environment
  • solid front door to prevent damage from the sun (it comes with UV protected glass front as well)
  • condensation issues is handled pretty well and looks a lot like the solution that you use PigFish. Can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkAw916rDHk
  • it can be fitted with slide out shelves
  • the sealment must be good I would guess as the energy consumption seems low and wines too need a constant temperature environtment

Here are some of the concerns I have:

  • say humidity will be between 50-75%, is it adjustable and how? Will I need to make additional add ons to make me able to adjust the humidity? Maybe a humidifyer and some beads? Kind of want a set and forget type of solution.
  • how is air circulation handled? That must be an issues for wine cabinets as well I would guess (I have no knowledge at all about wine, nor the interest as I never consume alcohol)
  • durability, how long does the unit last? Say they insure any damaged wine as a result of a broken unit, wonder if they will insure damaged cigars for the same reason?
  • the wooden shelves are made of sapelli (sapele? spelling?) can it be used for cigar storage?? It must be able to handle the high humidity but how is it oderwise? If not then maybe I could have the producer fit it with spanish ceder or honduran mahogany and if they are reluctant to do so I can have a carpenter fit it afterwards)

There is several online stores in my country that sells them including one not too far away from where I live. I will give them a call tomorrow and ask if they have the specific product on display or any other climadiff product so that I can go see it with my own eyes and get a feel for it and the quality of it.

What do you think PigFish?? Any thoughts or additional concerns I should have in mind??

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First some caveats… I don’t know of these products. A direct critique of them would therefore be somewhat disingenuous. I do know quite a bit about wine coolers and their conversion. I know a lot about what might be considered their weaknesses and their benefits. I know a lot about converting them to humidors…

I also know a bit about refrigeration controls used by the humidor makers and others. By talking with folks from around the globe, I have also come to see some of the very same or similar units from different countries that have amazing similarities.

As far as wine coolers are concerned, I have come to believe that there are only a handful of companies that are making them, mostly in Asia. Each distributor dolls them up with some bells and whistles that they believe will appeal to their clientele and basically sells the same, or a similar unit. One day I hope to have a pretty extensive catalogue of what is available around the world, and therefore have the ability to whip up a kit for just about any of them… Call that a bit of a dream!

I come to find out about different ‘brands’ of wine coolers through potential clients that that have tried on their own to make working humidors out of the coolers that they have bought. In my country, I recommend a specific cooler that I find easiest to convert. If you have something different, it may be easier or harder to convert and I don’t know until I take on the project and start to engineer a solution to it. This is tangent, but it explains how I become familiar with coolers from different suppliers, through what I call the “Guinea pig” system! Someone buys one and typically fails at producing the type of performance that they want and I get involved with helping engineer a solution. The principal works because most want to try and use what they have already acquired and they accept the responsibility to pay for my engineering for a solution.

What I know about these coolers is that they are mass-produced, which makes them cheap for us to convert, and for people to store wine in. Wine is far less sensitive to a balance of rH to temperature than cigars, and part of the process of cutting corners is to produce them with the cheapest controls to perform the job. While I would depend on a wine expert to chime in here and tell me if I am wrong, it would appear to me that wine does not care much one way or another if the air temperature in their space varies from 10 to 20% of their norm as long as the average is somewhere near what is generally acceptable for keeping wine.

Wine and the glass that keep it contained have certain ability “sink” heat. This means that a continuous variable fluctuation of heat does not really affect them, as long as the average is close to the number that is desired. The idea of a wine cooler is just that; to cool wine!

A humidor is far and away a different animal. Tobacco does not have the thermal capacitance or conductivity of glass or water.

I am not really suggesting that cigars are that sensitive to temperature. If one were to view tobacco and temperature as a single variable, I cannot imagine that a regular swing in temperature that produces an average is going to be far and away more drastic to their demise than it would be to wine.

The major difference here is in the fact that cigars (tobacco) and the wine bottle are completely different. Tobacco is porous and hygroscopic. Tobacco is dependent on the symbiotic environment for its taste as well as its structural integrity. The relationship between the environment and tobacco is dependent not only on temperature but on the amount of water in the environment as well.

While the layman’s mindset about tobacco storage is focused only on water or rH, it is ignorance of the behavior of hygroscopic materials that leads him/her to believe that temperature has little or no part in the equation. I have done some extensive writing on this subject and don’t think that it is due again here…

This brings us back to this wine cooler. Wine cooler, wine ‘aging’ cabinet… what is the difference? I don’t know!

Attached you will find a lower section of a wine cooler provided courtesy of one of my clients… I ask you… why would one want to store condensate in a pool at the bottom of a wine cooler without draining it off? I think I know the answer. This is part of a system that the wine cooler maker suggests represents a “devise” for keeping up humidity in the wine cooler. By keeping a certain amount of “free” liquid water in the interior of the wine cooler, the wine cooler maker represents that his wine cooler is not going to dehydrate your wine corks. This is a primitive passive system that allows the wine cooler maker to look at a set of parameters and say that his cooler will keep between 50 and 70rH in the cooler.

Is this how you (rhetorically) intend on keeping your cigars? Is 50 to 70rH just what the doctor ordered? If the answer is yes, well a wine cooler with a puddle of water is just what you need!!!!

It is my experience that the wine cooler world and the humidor maker world suffer from a general lack of what I would deem precision monitoring and control. You should expect that from me as I compete in this field and I have chosen controls to specifically out perform that of what I have found by purchasing controls from some of these makers.

To me, accuracy (while I like the idea of it) is a pit. I really don’t concern myself with it much. I am more concerned with resolution, response and precision. I am interested more in consistency and repeatability than I am with anything else. I am concerned with these factors, because these factors reduce the environmental swings and the duration of swings based on air exchanges, as well as the daily instability of conditions that vary with the ambient conditions of your home or office.

My model is based on two prevailing thoughts and beliefs. Cigars are best kept in smoking condition and the closer you keep your cigars to smoking condition at all times (consistency) the better it is for them.

So now that I have taken the time to read the English portion of the manual for this cooler and it is pretty apparent that these folks have for the most part indicated exactly what I have been writing above. Of course they point out that this (their) system and the associated cyclical performance, resolution and performance is perfect for wine… A few moments with the manual and you will realize that this cooler will have devastating effects on climate consistency for cigars.

This system (at least by my standard) is a disaster for consistent cigar storage. While the platform (a insulated box and refrigerator) may make for the basis of an adequate conversion to a suitable solution, as it sits it is represents a larger problem than a solution. I would surely deal with a few months of 70 to 80 degree ambient heat before I would subject my cigars to the cycles of both temperature and humidity as indicated by their own literature many times daily.

The conversion of a wine cooler is mostly science and some art. I would love to say that it is all as easy as applying a handful of theories. It is not! I have suffered disastrous results after disastrous results and still came back to the lab with new ideas in hopes of finding different results. Frankly folks, I have almost tossed in the towel many, many times!!!

If you go back to the freezer humidor thread and watch the little video about how my system responds to an air exchange, you should note that it is the result of hundreds if not thousands of hours of work! Extreme condition ambient, precision cigar microclimates are not easy to create. My suggestion is that you emulate a successful project if you want to find success. If you cannot see a data log of the success of a system, it means that the system either does not work, or the creator is more interested in some other aspect of the system than the actual performance of it.

How you keep your cigars and what conditions you deem is proper for their storage is a personal choice based on your budget and beliefs. I say keep it simple and inexpensive if you can. If you cannot then there are options. If those options are not available to you as a prebuilt system then you can try to tackle them yourself. When I started there was little help and no resource for information or parts. I have tried to fill that niche by posting here with my ideas and if one chooses, I can assist in the engineering and construction of their individual systems.

I am afraid that is all the time I can afford for this one today. If I have missed some of the more pertinent points and questions, query them and I will give them some thought as time permits… -Ray

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Valid points Ray. Missed the part in the manual about cyclical performance. Allthough it leaves me kind of sad :D what to do now?? Got 2 boxes in the mail today and another one in transit and I'll have to be pretty creative to make the last one fit. Not really keen on going out and buy another plastic monster :)

Can you guide me in a direction for a working solution?? What model of easy convertable cooler that holds approx. 100 boxes should I go for? Do you have a kit I can buy of you that is somewhat easy to install? What's the price of your services (hope I don't break any forum rules asking this, please let me know if I am and I can email you instead)? I'm interested in a solution that:

  • is fully actively controlled both humidity and temperature wise, the environment inside the cooler should be close to stable without too big swings
  • not too noisy a compressor (I live in an apartment, so I have not garage or basement where I can put the unit)
  • reasonable energy consumption (that's relative I know)
  • probably should have some air cirkulation

That's what I can think of out the top of my heada t the moment. An RAy thank you very much for the time you have out in into asnwering me so far, I really appreciate it :)

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Just saw your video in this thread http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=119046&hl=%2Bhumidor+%2Bfreezer Ray, very impressive I must say. That's exactly the kind of solution I'm looking for.

Some items I don't mind posting about because they are of interest and may be conversation provoking reading to other members (educational posts). A strict discussion of a commercial nature, while it will likely be very informative (just ask one of my customers) is probably not appropriate to conduct on the forum.

I am happy to describe what I consider what I generalize as a "unified" or "consummate" solution but I will have to put the conversation off a few days probably.

I have a complete backlog of personal emails to respond to. I have another gentleman who is also thinking of a larger solution, that I have just left hanging, some clients that I thought were still dealing with development want to start building… I am really back logged…! New friends and old friends who just want to BS and my reply times are hinging on being rude…!

I think that when one chooses this route, a thorough understanding of what can and cannot be done is important. A big part of my job is to share as much information about that as possible so that people really understand the forces behind the control issues, the controls, appliances and then the ultimate solution. It takes a lot of time to run a business like that…!

I try to do a lot of my educational work here online. It is fun and informational posting that I think adds value to the forum. It also gets the theory out there, or if you prefer, a projection of my mindset, for those to ponder about, opine and even criticize.

I can be reached at [email protected]

Please be patient however, I run a one man shop and I am really backed up with emails and project development. Building them is the easy part… Designing a new one, and helping the customer understand how it works is the real time consuming aspect of the job.

The help has been my pleasure. -Ray

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No problem Ray, take all the time you need. That fact that you take the time to reply all these humidor related post with in depth explanations ect. ect. is much appreciated by me as I'm sure as many of the other forum members. Also patience is a virtue as they say, so I don't mind waiting smile.png I'll drop you an email within the next few days.

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I thought a reply here would be more appropiate than a new thread, considering my question is similar.

I have read a lot of Ray's very detailed answers, so hopefully this question will need only a short answer!

I have 3 desktop humidors (2 x 50 count and 1 x 150 count). Trouble is the exterior temperature swings are affecting the interior temperature of the humidors! (in the year or so that i've had the humidors, i have seen interior temps from 9 degrees -> 28 degrees (Celsius)). Plus intra-day temp swings are a factor as well.

Question is: what are the downsides, or mistakes in using a wine cooler as a means of temperature management?

I want to buy a wine cooler, set it to 18 degrees, and stick the humidors inside. I am NOT (at this point in time) looking to make a wine-idor, or a fully controlled humidor. I just want to find a solution for maintaining a consistent temperature.

The first issue i could think of would be air supply, or air circulation around the humidors. I figure if i open the wine cooler every 2 weeks or so, to change the air, that should help.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

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Hi Hitman,

I don't have scientific evidence/data but I can give you my opinion. I have done exactly what you suggested for about 6 months. I have abandoned it because I suspect the following has occured:

1. My two Daniel Marshall Humidors are slightly warped. When you place them on a flat surface and you place a hand on each side of the lid and push down, they slightly rock. I think the high moisture environment I placed them into has penetrated into and swelled the wood slightly. My wine fridge claims to keep an RH of 50-80 in order to keep the corks of the wine bottles from shrinking.

2. The RH inside the humidor was tough to keep at the 65-68 mark I'd hoped for. It would be 70-72. I'd say that in the long run the high humidity within the unit eventually penetrates the wooden humidor.

3. I got a reasonable sized wine fridge (54 bottle) It doesnt really fit much more than my 100 and 150 count humidors. A lot of the real estate is wasted inside the unit. These desktop humidors, although reasonably sized, are inadequate to hold my growing collection.

I'm currently in the process of converting the wine fridge.

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Man… there is a lot of stuff to reply to here! I don't really know that I can get to all of it.

First there is a member who has some real time experience with dealing with (what I consider) an out of control cooler. His experience is worth noting.

I want to stick on this topic of a humidor in a cooler for a moment because the idea does have merit. A proper humidor inside a controlled environment is a valid solution. Lets expand on that a minute.

You have a room! You keep it at 70dF and 60rH. You don't need a humidor! These are just my numbers by the way!!! So your humidor is kept in a controlled space and therefore needs not be controlled. Pretty simple.

Whether we are talking humidors or open space we are talking control of climate. The climate in some ways 'drives' any humidor. While my humidors are NOT dependent on a "driving space" (that is what makes them singularly unique) all humidors are driven by their ambient conditions, including mine. A driving space, or ambient conditions are therefore important to most forms of cigar storage and humidor theory and design. You need or don't need a proper isolated humidor, solely due to your ambient conditions or "driving space."

Not all people need consummate designs such as I provide. Some don't really need it and just want it! For some it provides piece of mind and more control than they really actually need. I cannot define need or want. That is not up to me… That is up to you as the system administrator of your cigar storage solution.

There are guys like David and Dennis that have worked extensively on this humidor within a controlled space theory. They call them humidors, but in fact they are more "cool rooms" for humidors. Let me explain… You see, the goal is to design a space to be a formal humidor, or as a controlled space for a humidor. There is a difference.

If one takes a freezer (or refrigerator for example) and controls the temperature inside the space it is no different from cooling an entire room… is it? No it isn't. You see you don't need to cool your whole house for a cool room, nor do you need to cool a whole room to cool a box of cigars.

A humidor by definition is different to all people. What one calls a humidor, may be a cigar box to another. A complex, consummate storage solution may be what I call a humidor, and another may consider it a cluster f….k! We all define things according to our own biases, wants and needs.

The two piece combination humidor does not work for me! I like a consummate solution but that does not mean that it is not a valid approach to a problem. You see if you can control temperature and rH to drive the formal humidor (the place where you keep your cigars) and you can manage to keep your cigars the way you want them, then you have succeeded. You see, you must define success for yourself because I will certainly define it differently.

Perhaps you may not want to keep expensive wooden humidors in a semi controlled space like a cooler, but it might work with sealed containers if you have the patience to monitor each separate space with beads or other solutions. Me…. I have not the time nor patience for that stuff! I have dealt with separate humidors before and before I discovered digital controlled solutions I was going nuts with maintenance and worry over conditions and variations.

Skyfall (David) is very happy with his solutions using a mini-climate (a freezer) to drive a microclimate (his sealed formal individual humidors) kept inside. Wilkey, Nino, Keith, many of my friends have different solutions that all work for them; their solutions being different from mine! Being experienced (seasoned) smokers, they know what they want and like and have obviously found solutions that they deem appropriate for their cigars.

As always I say that in order to find success faster, it may be worthwhile to emulate the successes of others as a first step. Each of you needs to decide for yourself what your solution will be, and it does not have to be mine, either emulated nor purchased form me to be perfect for you.

Now back to what I specialize in… I prefer consummate solutions. I prefer a humidor that can withstand a range of ambients and can baby my cigars with little or no input from me. I think that I have mastered that solution better and beyond those that offer the same concept. Where we differ from some of them is in the approach.

Ultimately we all have to deal with money! What it costs! It is the deciding factor for many necessities and certainly for all the luxuries that we have in life. There are those that approach it (the crafting of humidors) more aesthetically and others (like myself) from a more scientific (proven) approach. In either case you are left with deciding if you can afford it if you want it.

Cost therefore is a driving factor for my designs. They are not exactly cheap! But in the world of controlled cigar climates they are highly competitive. If one were to read my blogs/posts about cigars generally, one would conclude that I am highly critical of bloated, expensive, unproven cigars dolled up in shiny boxes. What would I be if I offered similar solutions for storage? You see it is a part of my moral and ethical character to be consistent, objective and critical of all things, including my own work and behavior. As I see it, the bloated, expensive, unproven cigar, the exclusive nature of all things overpriced (especially as it pertains to cigars), may well lead to the downfall of the ostensibly luxurious, but still affordable devotion to what we call the cigar…

One therefore can look to obtain a finished solution or a homemade solution. Being a bit of a DIY guy, crackpot and general McGiver of all things mechanical I have taken it upon myself to mentor those wishing to keep better care of their cigars. I enjoy it so much I have made a boutique business out of it.

There are several ways to emulate my approach. One is to purchase a cooler that I suggest and buy a kit… Another is to get your cooler and experiment for yourself. And lastly, one would be to engage my help to fix one that you have already screwed up!!! -LOL

As you can see from my lengthy posts the help is always free as long as someone is buying something so I don't need to get a real job and can afford the time. If you want me to engineer something that will cost me time and money then we have to settle on how I will be compensated and that is done off the forum.

Hell, it might be fun to engineer something live on the forum but I cannot really afford to do that pro-bono today and it might break a bunch of forum rules as it would ultimately be a commercial venture for me.

Engineering a cooler is a sort of methodical madness where one guts what they have and documents all the parts that I need to see and measure. It is time consuming but can be certainly rewarding… I can tell you I get a kick out of building a new project 2, 3 or 10K miles away!

I have probably gone off on tangents galore and missed a lot of points so for those who want more specific answers, if you post 1 or 2 questions at a time, it is much easier to keep me focused and on track.

Now, I have a ton of paperwork to do!

Cheers all… -Piggy

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  • 4 weeks later...

Cheers Piggy (Ray, isn't it?) for the exceptionally detailed response here, and on just about every thread covering humidors, temperature, RH%, cooling systems, active systems, and every other topic surrounding cigar storage! you are a wealth of knowledge and i for one appreciate all the help you have provided this board.

Thanks again!

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Cheers Piggy (Ray, isn't it?) for the exceptionally detailed response here, and on just about every thread covering humidors, temperature, RH%, cooling systems, active systems, and every other topic surrounding cigar storage! you are a wealth of knowledge and i for one appreciate all the help you have provided this board.

Thanks again!

Cheers, mate and thanks for the kind words.

I'd say buy my book, but I don't sell books…! -LOL The pleasure is all mine! -Ray

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Not really a solution, but an observation:

You reduce the need for rH and temperature accuracy a certain amount (maybe enough to use a nearly stock system) in one of these systems if you store your cigars in cabs, or even better, zip locks and shrink wraps (if you believe in that sort of thing). Only the bare naked cigar is going to be exposed to constant environmental cycles, whereas a +/- 2F (?) or maybe more temperature change over 15 minutes is unlikely to be felt by the stogies stored in a SLB?

I don't know what the exact numbers are, and haven't seen any experimental data on this notion, but it seems plausible.

Piggy, have you ever logged one of your system performance graphs by putting the sensor in a cigar box or, better yet, in a cigar in a cigar box?

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Not really a solution, but an observation:

You reduce the need for rH and temperature accuracy a certain amount (maybe enough to use a nearly stock system) in one of these systems if you store your cigars in cabs, or even better, zip locks and shrink wraps (if you believe in that sort of thing). Only the bare naked cigar is going to be exposed to constant environmental cycles, whereas a +/- 2F (?) or maybe more temperature change over 15 minutes is unlikely to be felt by the stogies stored in a SLB?

I don't know what the exact numbers are, and haven't seen any experimental data on this notion, but it seems plausible.

Piggy, have you ever logged one of your system performance graphs by putting the sensor in a cigar box or, better yet, in a cigar in a cigar box?

Yes, absolutely, it is why I recommend that one store in cigars in boxes even in any system where there can be rapid changes, in other words, controlled systems. Even if the system itself does not change rapidly, the air exchanges represent rapid changes and cannot be avoided. It is another reason why I cool cigars to keep them stable, but not to intentionally refrigerate them below (room temperature) 70-74dF.

I am against bagging cigars. Why?

Take a cigar that is not climate controlled. Zip it up in a bag… The bag gradually heats to a higher temp and water migrates out of the cigar. Cool the bagged cigars and the water condenses inside, not having time at a lower energy state to move back into the cigars themselves. You get wet outside, moldy cigars and never added a drop of water to the cigar in the first place.

While bagging a cigar may mean that the water (absolute) is constant, it does not in any means control the migration of water, which has everything to do with temperature.

The point being, that everything we do with our cigars, if we are going to take steps to condition them a certain way, should be well thought out… There are unintended consequences to almost every action. The further you take them away from historically proven, established conditions, the greater likelihood you "f"'m up!

Cheers! -Ray

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Not really a solution, but an observation:

You reduce the need for rH and temperature accuracy a certain amount (maybe enough to use a nearly stock system) in one of these systems if you store your cigars in cabs, or even better, zip locks and shrink wraps (if you believe in that sort of thing). Only the bare naked cigar is going to be exposed to constant environmental cycles, whereas a +/- 2F (?) or maybe more temperature change over 15 minutes is unlikely to be felt by the stogies stored in a SLB?

I don't know what the exact numbers are, and haven't seen any experimental data on this notion, but it seems plausible.

Piggy, have you ever logged one of your system performance graphs by putting the sensor in a cigar box or, better yet, in a cigar in a cigar box?

Yes, absolutely, it is why I recommend that one store in cigars in boxes even in any system where there can be rapid changes, in other words, controlled systems. Even if the system itself does not change rapidly, the air exchanges represent rapid changes and cannot be avoided. It is another reason why I cool cigars to keep them stable, but not to intentionally refrigerate them below (room temperature) 70-74dF.

I am against bagging cigars. Why?

Take a cigar that is not climate controlled. Zip it up in a bag… The bag gradually heats to a higher temp and water migrates out of the cigar. Cool the bagged cigars and the water condenses inside, not having time at a lower energy state to move back into the cigars themselves. You get wet outside, moldy cigars and never added a drop of water to the cigar in the first place.

While bagging a cigar may mean that the water (absolute) is constant, it does not in any means control the migration of water, which has everything to do with temperature.

The point being, that everything we do with our cigars, if we are going to take steps to condition them a certain way, should be well thought out… There are unintended consequences to almost every action. The further you take them away from historically proven, established conditions, the greater likelihood you "f"'m up!

Cheers! -Ray

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Take a cigar that is not climate controlled. Zip it up in a bag… The bag gradually heats to a higher temp and water migrates out of the cigar. Cool the bagged cigars and the water condenses inside, not having time at a lower energy state to move back into the cigars themselves. You get wet outside, moldy cigars and never added a drop of water to the cigar in the first place.

...So Ray, what would your take on storing in tubes be? Assuming there is no water vapor transfer through aluminum or glass (or extremely little in a well-sealed tube), would you/do you keep the "tubos" as such in your humidors?

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I don't typically buy tubed cigars, I don't need the protection and there are a waste of cigar money! With that said, I do own some tubed cigars, ones that I have picked up over time.

Lets just say that I don't trust the air and water of others! This means that for me, I must let the cigar breathe in my humidor, in my conditions before I will close up a tube. I mean, I will open the tubes and give them a year to acclimate to my conditions before closing them up, if I ever do.

A sealed vessel is not really the problem. Trapping water on certain leaves is the problem. What many don't understand is that water will migrate with temperature. The warmer it gets, the more water will migrate, and the faster it will migrate. On the other hand, the thermal mass for metal is different than tobacco. You take a tubed cigar and heat it, and then cool it, the water will move from the tobacco and then condense in the tube. Often this free water will likely just move back into the tobacco, but if it settles on the cap or the foot, or the wrapper, you can actually get it wet.

On top of that, you never know the conditions that the previous person who had the cigars stored them. You might find that the cigar was delivered too wet or too dry and never had a chance at the temp/rH level that you prefer.

That is my take. Cheers! -Piggy

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