Thickness of spanish cedar lining in a cabinet humidor

[Deodato]

Its time I upgrade to a cabinet humidor and since I'm in Australia, an Aristocrat is out of the question. Happily I have a friend who is a cabinet maker and is going to help me get exactly what I want.

In terms of materials, we're looking at water-resistant and formaldehyde-free MDF with my exterior-veneer vacuum-pressed to one side and spanish cedar on the other.

I can get the spanish cedar in 25mm (1 inch) thickness and I'm wondering whether I should get it cut down to 5mm or 10mm thickness (1/5" or 3/8").

It is a real cost saving if I get 3x5mm rather than 2x10mm but I don't want to compromise on RH stability.

Any opinions on whether I'd notice a difference between the two thicknesses over the long term? I'm planning on getting Bob Staebell's set & forget hardware to manage temp and RH.

[shlomo]

What is the price difference between your two options? 3/8ths seems unnecessarily thick, but for peace of mind, may be worth it. Especially if you have humidty fluctuations like I think you do down there.

[shlomo]

Also, if you are putting in drawers or shelves, make those out of the cedar as well and you should be golden.

[oliverdst]

I don't know the density of ceddar but maybe you should think about the final humidor weight.

This shouldn't be a concern when you want a piece of art but maybe it's good not to forget it.

[PapaDisco]

Go with the thinner Spanish cedar but replace the mdf with your least expensive mahogany available. Spanish cedar and mahogany are practically identical, and I'd bet that if anything gives you an unwelcome surprise it will be the outgassing, seemingly infinitesimal, of the mdf glue. I wouldn't get that stuff near any LT storage.

[Carpenter69]

MDF is a difficult product to build cabinets with. It doesn't hold a screw well and if not completely sealed will swell like a bastid. Myself, I'd use 9 ply birch plywood and veneer however you like on the exterior and spanish cedar on the interior. Good luck with the build. Would love to see progress pictures.

[PigFish]

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about wood, as I a wine cooler humidor maker and not a wood humidor maker, but there are a few things to remember.

While am no real fan of MDF, it is dimensionally very stable. Why is this important? Because your humidor will have two sides! It has an inside that will be 60 to 70rH (at a given temperature) and an out side at a different temperature and humidity. How this translates to wood is warpage. While MDF (as mentioned) does not hold a fastener well, it can be glued and fastened to solid wood ribs that will be reliable for strength.

I personally have planed a lot of Spanish cedar. Even when well tempered it will warp in thinner dimensions. I would suggest that you stay to .25in or about 6mm as a minimum. 5/4 hardwood, if you resaw and plane carefully will net you 3 planks of finished product at .25 inch.

Don't let it sit around or it will twist.

… if you want to know, your Aristocrat is made of MDF!

[Deodato]

Thanks guys. I know the MDF thing is contentious but I think I can be cool with it if it's moisture resistant and formaldehyde-free. Based on your feedback I'm getting comfortable with three thinner planks of spanish cedar rather than two thicker planks. It'll save me some hundreds of dollars.

Meantime, I realise there could be a different flaw in my plan - no insulation! Ray or others, if I do insulate should I be looking at closed cell spray foam, polyurethane foam sheets or something else between the 'outer box' and the 'inner box'?

Really excited about this project!

[PigFish]

There are arguments for and against insulation. Insulation in a rapidly transitioning state will keep your cigars more stable. This works both ways. You could find you are keeping the heat in when you finally get some cool nights!

Insulation is required for cooling… any cooling! If you don't insulate the energy transfer will be so great that your cooler will run constantly. This is a disaster unless you have a massive cooler and you have mastered the art of precision floating point cooler control above the dew point. Since I am not seeing that happen in the cigar market anywhere, I am going to assume you are not going that direction!

What are your plans and what is the ambient in your home? I find myself asking these questions over and over again! They are finally being asked by others today. I think I have pushed the question on the community from this board as a matter of fact. No one was really addressing designing to the ambient until I starting hammering on it here.

First you have to ask yourself the question. Why am I going to insulate?

If that is the case, I would not be bothering with an expensive laminate on the inside of my MDF. While I did not delve into your plans too far, I did ask myself why are you talking laminating and planking in the same post? While the planks can be used for other purposes, the title mentions cedar lining… so I am confused.

If insulation is the plan, then you can span the inner space with monolithic member 'studs' the thickness of the insulation, such as a formaldehyde free foam (even styrofoam), use a contact adhesive and Tyvek the spanned, insulated space and then brad or screw-off the planks perpendicular to the monolithic studs.

If you are going to this route, then the planks can be of varying widths but you really should shiplap them or t&g them. If were doing it, I would likely painstakingly use a nice square drive SS fastener and really drive myself nuts… but I think it might have a nice look!

Otherwise you can get some SS brads or crown staples for your nail gun and go at it! I used SS scows for the cement board siding on my barn… so I build everything to last!

Don't forget to note the stud location if you cannot find them with the screws or the brads! You might like shelves in your project and if you want to add sliders you will want them to land on the studs to be fastened.

You should draw your project and get some of the hardware first so that you can plan around it. While I often used to build on a whim, that really is a mistake! Get pencil and paper out or if you are a CAD guy like I am start drawing and find the problems before you waste expensive materials! Prototyping is still necessary, but tossing materials away by the result of poor planning is something that I no longer do. With the cost of hardwood these days, you may thank me later!

I don't drill a hole that I don't draw first now!

If you are looking for some groovy controls for this project… let me know! -LOL What I am really good at, are controls….! -LOL

-Ray

[PapaDisco]

The stability of MDF is only useful in a constantly changing environment. If you have a stabile gradient (humidity inside, dry outside) then solid wood (mahogany) is better. If, heavens forbid, sometime over the next decade or longer, you ever get the gradient going from out to in, then all of that vapor is filtering through your glued up MDF and into your cigar stock; a science experiment into the unknown!

As an amateur woodworker, I would never use MDF for any significant piece of furniture, or for any piece meant to last more than 10 years. If I was worried about expansion/contraction then I would cross layer the wood accordingly, but ideally your humidor design should help you avoid such big swings in temperature or humidity.

[CanuckSARTech]

As others have said, MDF isn't the greatest, but if you've made that decision then so be it.....

IMO, it all depends on the size of the area being covered by the cedar. If the pieces are relatively large (say 8" wide by 20" long or so), then I'd definitely recommend to stay with 1/2" thick finished.

[Goble]

I used 1/2" in my China Hutch Humidor Conversion. The thicker you can afford to go the better!

[LivetoCook]

MDF, HDF, I frown at these initials... First and foremost with these materials is the origin; manufacturer, country, year made. As mentioned above, the glue technology is very important here. I know that there has been major improvements over the years. But, it is still glue and for looks, natural wood is number 1. I have seen the beginning of this industry and the question that remains in my mind is the ''glue''. How does it do with some of the wood fibers chemistry over time? Especially here into an enclosed environment with Rh of +/- 70% over a long period. A good friend of mine mentioned to me, and even being stubborn, I listened to him. ''Understand that you have a little fortune in cigars and you want to go cheap on your humidor...'' So, it is... message received. 10mm cedar and decent woods in the construction. Just like a cigar, a beautiful cabinet or piece of furniture well built with natural materials is a piece of art.

[BBS]

As an owner of a Staebell cabinet, I found Bob's comments very interesting on the subject. Not looking to start or finish any disagreement, only to provide what I believe is a very well thought out opinion, from a guy that makes beautiful cabinets:

I always enjoy when the topic of solid wood vs veneers in humidors comes up because it allows me to shed a little light on one of the more misunderstood areas of wood working. Which is better solid wood or a veneer?? The correct answer is both-- it depends on the specie of wood & application.

Not all woods are structurally sound enough to use as solid wood & there are applications where the expansion/contraction that occurs in any wood is undesirable.

There is no reputable humidor maker anywhere that would not use veneers in certain applications. To limit oneself to using only solid wood or only veneers, would mean that one could only build a very limited style of furniture & eliminate about 1/2 of the available woods for any given project.

Many of our most treasured antiques are made from a mix of veneers & solid woods.

Here are a couple of examples that came up in the first page of google for antique furniture. The crotch mahogany & walnut burl are used as veneers, because they are too unstable to use as a solid thick wood, as are many other highly figured woods.

< Broken links deleted - BBS >

The craftsmen who built these great pieces with veneer didn't do so because they wanted to spend a year making a thin veneer with only the hand tools available 2-300 years ago--they did it because a thick solid wood burl would never survive more than a couple of years, much less the couple of centuries as these did by using veneers.

We simply continue the same tradition of fine woodworking by using the correct material--veneer or solid wood--using the same criteria they did 200 years ago. The physics of wood movement does not change. What has changed is we have better adhesives & a wider range of substrate materials to choose from.

This is why you will also see humidors by venerable makers Davidoff, Elie Bleu, Dunhill, Ashton, all using veneers, when high density tropical hardwoods &amp; highly figured woods are involved. They like I, want our creations to last.

Re cost - Many of my veneers are layed up in a custom shop that specializes in working with nothing but veneers. They have millions of $ tied up in specialized veneer stitchers, 10 ft guillotines, & a veneer press that fills a large room. Quite often my costs for the finished veneer on a high end mdf or medex substrate are substantially higher than purchasing a solid slab of the same wood.

Cheers,

Bob Staebell

Aristocrat Humidors

[BMWBen]

Another great thread full of info, without lining the interior of the humi with cedar would solid mahogany or mahogany plywood (i'd prefer the later) stand up to the interior humidity on its own? I'm trying to come up with the right building material now

[morganti]

On 5/31/2017 at 6:50 PM, BMWBen said:

Another great thread full of info, without lining the interior of the humi with cedar would solid mahogany or mahogany plywood (i'd prefer the later) stand up to the interior humidity on its own? I'm trying to come up with the right building material now

I always suggest lining the interior for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, it covers up or seals any small gaps around the joints. As for the material being able to stand up to the RH. For unlined plywood construction, the answer is yes and no... 

There are certain types of plywood designed for exposure to high humidity, a lot of them are designed for exterior usage - pressure treated, or marine grade. About two years ago I did find an interior grade ply at Home Depot that was maple veneered on both sides with a water-based adhesive that was suitable for moderate moisture exposure (kitchen or bathroom cabinets). I used this in my humidor builds with a thin lining 1/8" and they haven't buckled or swelled at all. I also used it as the wall material for my built-in humidor with 1/4" Spanish Cedar lining and so far so good. I guess what I am ultimately saying is look at the properties of the plywood, is it rated for use in wet environments, what kind of adhesives are being used, is it mold resistant, and so on. 

As for solid mahogany, I can't say from experience building humidors, but from my experience building guitars a dense mahogany is fairly stable at various conditions. I have not had a straight grained mahogany neck twist after carving, I have experienced flamed maple necks twisting on me after carving and fitted with a truss rod. With that being said, I don't know what will happen after prolonged exposure to a high RH. Your supplier may be able to provide some better insight if this scenario is beyond the collective wisdom of the forum.

[BMWBen]

On 6/5/2017 at 10:12 AM, morganti said:

I always suggest lining the interior for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, it covers up or seals any small gaps around the joints. As for the material being able to stand up to the RH. For unlined plywood construction, the answer is yes and no... 

 

When lining with spanish cedar do you usually just do a friction fit?

[morganti]

On 6/8/2017 at 9:13 PM, BMWBen said:

When lining with spanish cedar do you usually just do a friction fit?

I cut all pieces to loosely fit into the humidor, then glue the lining to the body using food safe glue. The reason I do this is to allow for any wood expansion, especially when you start to condition the humidor and get into 60-70% humidity. For most humidors I just butt joint the interior. The first humidor I built had 45 degree mitre fit lining and looked great but one wall started to bow off the wall due to the expansion.

[Booyaa]

I used solid mahogany when I made mine and not had a problem with it, no cedar lining.

[LordAnubis]

Question. I totally understand a wood drying and shrinking and then gaining moisture and swelling. In a humidor however. Once one gets it to the desired moisture content, and maintains it (not taking into consideration when the interior humidity drops 5% when cooling turns on for 5 minutes say). Does wood movement need to be taken into consideration then?


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[Profmd]

I made a large humidor years ago.

Red Oak exterior, and glued 1/4" spanish cedar panels that came mostly 6" wide by 10-12" in length. Just butt joint them together. I have never had an issue with the pieces shifting in different temps, or humidity.

Anything thicker than that, is just wasting money. 

Never had an issue. I use a Set-and-Forget system inside, and have been super happy with it.

[morganti]

On 6/27/2017 at 2:04 PM, LordAnubis said:

Question. I totally understand a wood drying and shrinking and then gaining moisture and swelling. In a humidor however. Once one gets it to the desired moisture content, and maintains it (not taking into consideration when the interior humidity drops 5% when cooling turns on for 5 minutes say). Does wood movement need to be taken into consideration then?


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If the interior remains at a consistent rH, then it should be very stable and any movement would likely come from the exterior materials settling, or shifting. Your rH drops and spikes will not cause any issues. You want to avoid prolonged changes - rH falling to 40% for 8 months would probably cause some issue.

After decommissioning 3 humidors over the last 6 months and letting them sit in a very dry environment, the 1/4" interior lining has held it's shape for the most part. One humidor has some small joint gaps, and the seal on one humidor isn't as tight as it once was.