Bordeaux....Heck All things French wine

[CoCigarSmoker]

Ok guys, lets talk French wine. I surely cannot be the only one who enjoys a great Bordeaux...hell, even a shitty Bordeaux is better to me the most other reds from the "prestigious" Napa valley. Call me crazy, and I have had great wine from the states, but seriously, French wine or bust for me. Cote Du Rhone, Bordeaux, anything French.

Tell me when the last time was that you had a better red than a 2005 Bordeaux.

Then, tell me what you have had since this vintage that has been close.....

As I type this I'm sitting here on my last glass of a bottle of 2010 Bordeaux. By no means is this a 2005 or a 2009, but still for the price I paid for this bottle, I'd take this over any US red blend on the market.

Cheers,

Seth

[Dispence]

The problem with the 2000, 2005 and the 2009 vintages for me is that they are great out of the shoot, but don't have longevity. What l like to call "restaurant wines"...

All great producers will make a great wine, but those warmer years are wines that won't stand the test of time. I'm actually digging my 04 Bordeaux more than my 05 because I'm starting to see it come around.

Coming back to the states for a second, the perfect example is the 1997 Napa Cabs vs the 98s. 97 was a heralded vintage, but those wines are dead. The 98s are drinking superb.

Back to France. I love French wine, my 1st true (wine) love. Especially Burgundy. The coolest thing about Burgs are they will fix themselves over time in those "poorer" vintages. My favorite wine in the past 12 months was a 1974 Corton-Charlemagne - my birth year. For those not familiar this is a white wine and a poor vintage. Totally blew me and some of my Sommelier friends AWAY!!!

Definitely not disparaging your 05s, but drink em now and put down some 04s and 06s.

Great post BTW!

[Ken Gargett]

Ok guys, lets talk French wine. I surely cannot be the only one who enjoys a great Bordeaux...hell, even a shitty Bordeaux is better to me the most other reds from the "prestigious" Napa valley. Call me crazy, and I have had great wine from the states, but seriously, French wine or bust for me. Cote Du Rhone, Bordeaux, anything French.

Tell me when the last time was that you had a better red than a 2005 Bordeaux.

Then, tell me what you have had since this vintage that has been close.....

As I type this I'm sitting here on my last glass of a bottle of 2010 Bordeaux. By no means is this a 2005 or a 2009, but still for the price I paid for this bottle, I'd take this over any US red blend on the market.

Cheers,

Seth

some wonderful wines from bordeaux but i am of the school who remain convinced that the only reason anyone would pick bordeaux over burgundy is because they are yet to try a good one.

[JohnS]

Hi Seth,

I'm glad that Ken chipped in on this thread as I admit that my knowledge of wine is minimal. The only thing I can say that relates to your love of French wine is my love of French Cognac. I wouldn't settle for any other regional brandy, despite how good it is. When you have the best why settle for less, eh?

cheers,

John.

[Jeremy Festa]

I am more from the school that ... French is for the bubbles. And I am a champagne frother, to say the least. I lean more towards Barolo and Chianti, maybe even the odd Barbera when it comes to red. But in saying that, so many good Aussie and NZ reds that I would put toe to toe with what I have had from France and Italy.

And come to think of that, I have had some epic Malbec in the last month, and I am developing a sharp love affair with Albariño. But white is for another thread!!

Either way, let's start a new specific wine thread with a shot of the bottle label and a personal rating or short review.

Salute

Sent from my iPhone

[Colt45]

I used to buy and drink quite a bit of Bordeaux, and still buy an inexpensive bottle every now and then for a change. But when prices went crazy, I pretty much stopped. And I think I really just grew away from cabernet, and even more so merlot.

That said, I still buy and drink plenty of French wine, but look to the Rhone, Languedoc Roussillon, Provence, Burgundy (primarily Cru Beaujolais), etc. I really buy and drink more wines from Italy than anywhere else.

As for the last time I had a better red than a 2005 Bordeaux - my personal, subjective list would be too long

[DCigar]

As an ex Bordeaux (and Burgundy) collector I'd say the issue now is cost - its a lot of money these days for a good growth in a good year. En primeur is crazy now too.

I shifted my focus to Italy, specifically Tuscany and Piedmont and bang for your buck is just so much more.

I write this from London so I'm quite lucky geographically - not sure how it works price wise in US or Aus.

[Ken Gargett]

Ok guys, lets talk French wine. I surely cannot be the only one who enjoys a great Bordeaux...hell, even a shitty Bordeaux is better to me the most other reds from the "prestigious" Napa valley. Call me crazy, and I have had great wine from the states, but seriously, French wine or bust for me. Cote Du Rhone, Bordeaux, anything French.

Tell me when the last time was that you had a better red than a 2005 Bordeaux.

Then, tell me what you have had since this vintage that has been close.....

As I type this I'm sitting here on my last glass of a bottle of 2010 Bordeaux. By no means is this a 2005 or a 2009, but still for the price I paid for this bottle, I'd take this over any US red blend on the market.

Cheers,

Seth

interesting you mention those three vintages and a few days later, up comes this.

http://www.decanter.com/wine-events/pictures/34693/slideshow/0/decanter-bordeaux-encounter-guests-name-their-favourite-vintage#slideshow

[CoCigarSmoker]

Could you guys recommend some wines for me to try that won't break the bank? I'd love to explore other areas of France that you have mentioned.

Thanks,

Seth

[ayepatz]

I've recently been enjoying Pichon-Baron 2000. It getting up there with the 05.

But my best purchase as a case of 2004 Montrose, which just seems to get better and better every year.

I did the en primeur thing for a while before the prices shot up, and I'm sitting on a few cases that I'll be interested to start exploring once they hit the 10-year mark.

[Colt45]

Could you guys recommend some wines for me to try that won't break the bank? I'd love to explore other areas of France that you have mentioned.

I created my own little wine note sheet which I intended to use and keep in a binder. Unfortunately, I never implemented it, and what notes I do have are strewn about on bits of paper. So, what comes to mind for me would be Guigal Cotes du Rhone, which I find consistently solid at a very reasonable price.

Staying with Rhones, I really enjoy the Piaugier Sablet - a CdR Villages, which costs a little more than the Guigal. Their Gigondas is also very nice, but a bit more expensive. These are just a couple that I can think of off the top of my head. Don't be afraid to talk with the wine person at your local shop.

If I find anything interesting on my bits of paper, I'll add them

[GavLew79]

I love the under-estimated vintages for value. A lowly Ormes de Pez 2001 is drinking perfectly now and I had several delicious glasses of Phelan Segur 04 on an Emirates not long ago. I have a few 09s tucked away that I will start to drink this year.

My other love is white burgundy.

[sastrooper]

I had a bdx theme for my last bday and was particular impressed with the 81 leoville and 03 montrose, both really really good, esp the leoville as i had an 81 latour for my bday last yr and it was really mehhh, if only i was born i yr later ...

[LateApex]

I've recently been enjoying Pichon-Baron 2000. It getting up there with the 05.

But my best purchase as a case of 2004 Montrose, which just seems to get better and better every year.

I did the en primeur thing for a while before the prices shot up, and I'm sitting on a few cases that I'll be interested to start exploring once they hit the 10-year mark.

I have one bottle of the '04 Montrose.... looks like I'll be savoring the moment for a couple more years if it just keeps getting better and better. Thanks for the insight.

[CoCigarSmoker]

Hey guys, I figured I'd give this thread a bump. Any good recommendations lately that people have come across?

@Ken, I have been taking your advice and trying to work my way through more Burgundy's. I have been trying my hardest to do more research to define and understand my palate as it relates to wine. I think in general I enjoy old world wines much more than most any new world (California) options.

I will say that I have been dabbling in some more expensive wine (expensive to me....>35/bottle) and have found even some California Cabs that I did enjoy. Still, at the end of the day I find myself yearning for the old world, tannic, dry, dirt, etc... that I often find in Bordeaux's.

With all that said, I'd love to hear some recommendations from you guys on any recent wines (Specifically from Bordeaux/Burgundy) that would be less than 100USD per bottle. If you think some other wines from around the world or the states might tickle my fancy feel free to through those out there as well.

Lastly, has anyone had any experience with buying aged wine already from places such as Hart Davis Hart of Chicago? (hdhwine.com)?

Any advice, insight, or smart remarks are always welcome.

Cheers,

Seth

[Fugu]

Hi Seth,

As you are US-based, have you yet tried Jim Clendenen's Pinots (Au Bon Climat)? If you have a soft spot for Old World Burgundy - well, I wouldn't say he is particularly that, some wines are very Californian in fact (in a good way) - but for the quality you'd have to pay a multiple of that for Côte D'Or. For the most "Burgundian" stile, I'd recommend trying his cold climate Pinots, the famous Sanford & Benedict vinyard, from Santa Ynez Valley (Santa Rita Hills), or his less expensive Russian River Pinot from upper Sonoma. There is much more to explore from him. He's even doing some excellent Italian varietals, so I have heard, such as Teroldego (but not yet tried, as I have better access to the 'original'...), also some fleshier Pinots, if you like that. I'd just say check them out if not done yet. Another producer for you to consider may be Ojai (ex partner of Clendenen).

As regards 2005 Bdx, there is still some good bang for the buck to be had if you look out. Excellent performing smaller Chateaux from Haut Medoc, Moulis, St. Estèphe. Not for investment, but for drinking. Now far more to pay than en primeur of course, but still some good value I'd say (e.g. Chasse-Spleen, Poujeaux, de Pez, Ormes de Pez, Le Boscq, Belgrave, to mention a few you might still be able to find at retail for a decent price). Ready to drink and you know what you get. But it all depends on what's available in your neck of the woods.

As for Californian Bdx-blends, perhaps check out Laurel Glen, as well as Rick Forman (Howell Mountain) - and, while not cheap, I love Ridge's Monte Bello, a regular buy (almost) of mine since the early 90s.

I for one, just for the record, don't buy any Burgundy anymore. Far overprized and too many disappointments for my liking. If you want good quality you have to pay. If someone could name some bargains, some 'hidden gems' - yes, please let me know, too!! But I doubt there are many. If I long for Pinot Noir, it's mainly German Spaetburgunder or Californian today, or perhaps Pinot from Jura, and with that I have covered a fair range of stiles.

Cheers,

Paul

[Colt45]

Still, at the end of the day I find myself yearning for the old world, tannic, dry, dirt, etc...

If you think some other wines from around the world or the states might tickle my fancy feel free to through those out there as well.

Italy, Spain, Portugal - if you are willing to venture away from cabernet and merlot, you might find yourself pleasantly surprised. If you are able to spend up to a c-note, the (old) world is your oyster

[Fugu]

I used to buy and drink quite a bit of Bordeaux, and still buy an inexpensive bottle every now and then for a change. But when prices went crazy, I pretty much stopped. And I think I really just grew away from cabernet, and even more so merlot.

That said, I still buy and drink plenty of French wine, but look to the Rhone, Languedoc Roussillon, Provence, Burgundy (primarily Cru Beaujolais), etc. I really buy and drink more wines from Italy than anywhere else.

As for the last time I had a better red than a 2005 Bordeaux - my personal, subjective list would be too long

Very similar to me. Problem with Bordeaux is that the prices never came down to a sensible level again after the 2010 vintage. The big/famous ones are still hyped and the small producers are suffering and producing for the bulk market. The last good qual/value was 2008 and I am sorry for not having stocked more of that solid vintage en primeur.

That said, still stocking up on 2009s here and there, when available at a decent price, in particular small Chateaux, that kept rather stable in pricing after release. Agree with Languedoc, some interesting newcomers there.

[Fugu]

Italy, Spain, Portugal - if you are willing to venture away from cabernet and merlot, you might find yourself pleasantly surprised. If you are able to spend up to a c-note, the (old) world is your oyster

Again agreed, but unfortunately, Portugal, which once was a bargain, recently pushes the limit pricewise. The upsurge began with the intro of the Euro. Still some very good value to be found in Italy.

[Mattygukas]

Got to say Bordeaux is my personal favorite with many Burgundy and real 100% Cab Francs closely behind Bordeaux.

I had my last 2009 Borde on New Year's Eve, before I became drunk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Colt45]

Very similar to me. Problem with Bordeaux ......

I don't mean to sound the reverse snob, but I don't miss Bordeaux. At all. Spendy French - I'll go Bandol, or even less spendy, Gigondas. Northern Rhones (which yes, can be very expensive). Too many great ACs and great varietals.

I love old school Rioja - bloody, meaty. Sipping now on a Rosso di Montepulciano - but it can be a little hard to recommend new wines to / for people who might be focused on a certain direction for now.

[Colt45]

Still some very good value to be found in Italy.

A ton - if you enjoy Italian wines

( there are still quite a few smaller, quality producers - but again, one has to enjoy the wines )

[Ken Gargett]

Hi Seth,

As you are US-based, have you yet tried Jim Clendenen's Pinots (Au Bon Climat)? If you have a soft spot for Old World Burgundy - well, I wouldn't say he is particularly that, some wines are very Californian in fact (in a good way) - but for the quality you'd have to pay a multiple of that for Côte D'Or. For the most "Burgundian" stile, I'd recommend trying his cold climate Pinots, the famous Sanford & Benedict vinyard, from Santa Ynez Valley (Santa Rita Hills), or his less expensive Russian River Pinot from upper Sonoma. There is much more to explore from him. He's even doing some excellent Italian varietals, so I have heard, such as Teroldego (but not yet tried, as I have better access to the 'original'...), also some fleshier Pinots, if you like that. I'd just say check them out if not done yet. Another producer for you to consider may be Ojai (ex partner of Clendenen).

As regards 2005 Bdx, there is still some good bang for the buck to be had if you look out. Excellent performing smaller Chateaux from Haut Medoc, Moulis, St. Estèphe. Not for investment, but for drinking. Now far more to pay than en primeur of course, but still some good value I'd say (e.g. Chasse-Spleen, Poujeaux, de Pez, Ormes de Pez, Le Boscq, Belgrave, to mention a few you might still be able to find at retail for a decent price). Ready to drink and you know what you get. But it all depends on what's available in your neck of the woods.

As for Californian Bdx-blends, perhaps check out Laurel Glen, as well as Rick Forman (Howell Mountain) - and, while not cheap, I love Ridge's Monte Bello, a regular buy (almost) of mine since the early 90s.

I for one, just for the record, don't buy any Burgundy anymore. Far overprized and too many disappointments for my liking. If you want good quality you have to pay. If someone could name some bargains, some 'hidden gems' - yes, please let me know, too!! But I doubt there are many. If I long for Pinot Noir, it's mainly German Spaetburgunder or Californian today, or perhaps Pinot from Jura, and with that I have covered a fair range of stiles.

Cheers,

Paul

by chance, had a chasse spleen 2005 last week. good but had its arse kicked on the day by some of the burgs, most notably a freddie mugnier clos de marachale 2011 and a spectacular rousseau chambertin 1989 - mind you, what you'd pay for the latter wine today, you'd be very disappointed if it didn't.

definitely agree re jim clendenen's wines (always love the story about when he came out here as a youngster to work at tyrrells - murray tyrrell, a legend in aussie wine circles, walked up and told him if he wanted to come back a second day, he needed a hair cut. jim did not comply and so murray sacked him on day 2). the other one i'd suggest is littorai. ted lemon makes superb wines and they really do give a strong nod to burgundy.

no doubt burgs have exploded in cost, tragically. you watch top barolo and tuscans follow - they are already on the way. but that said, i would argue that the days of the inconsistencies that plagued burgundy for decades are largely behind us. sure, like every area, some overpriced wines and some duds, but in general, very exciting time for burgs. part of the problem has been a series of very small vintages just as demand started to increase. but as for quality, better than ever. and there are many small and new guys emerging. not sure if it works the same way where you are, but here, i am on as many mailing lists as i can find. a great way to see what is coming in - sadly i can only very rarely afford to buy (got a few bottles of a really rare chablis from 2014 - top year - and also a couple of bottles of henri bonneau recently - as he has fallen off the perch, now or never, but otherwise, very little). i think you'll be amazed at how good many of the wines are and there are still value wines to find.

[Fugu]

by chance, had a chasse spleen 2005 last week. good but had its arse kicked on the day by some of the burgs, most notably a freddie mugnier clos de marachale 2011 and a spectacular rousseau chambertin 1989

Absoluely believe that, Ken!

And while the C.-S. is a solid wine (a +/- regular staple of mine, occasionally bought by the case), I agree, it is not at all a spectacular or perhaps an 'exciting' Bdx. But I believe always a very good and reliable value (together with others if you carefully look out). I've even occasionally "imported" my own Bdx directly ex chateau of small producers of the lesser appellations (e.g. Lalande de Pomerol) which don't use the negociant system. Good value to be found there!

I just don't see similar in Côte D'Or (you are welcome to PM me... )

- mind you, what you'd pay for the latter wine today, you'd be very disappointed if it didn't.

That's exactly my "problem".

Don't get me wrong, I truly love good Burgundy, and agree with you, one of the best and most elegant wines we have on this planet. Still, I always get the feeling I am taken to the cleaners, as I can get as much enjoyment - perhaps not the "ethereal" experience, but still... - from other wines at a fraction of the price. I just checked back, one of the first Burg 1er Crus I bought, a Armand Rousseau, Gev. Chamb. 'Clos St Jacques' 1996, bought back in '99 went for about 65 $ (yet not a bargain at that time). Now, 17 years later, the average current price is given as about ten times that figure ($650!, new vintages almost in the same region), corresponding to an annual yield of almost 15 percent (well, had I known back then.... ). I think this really is in the lead compared to many other wine regions. Even Bordeaux, Barolo, Brunello et al. don't reach that.

definitely agree re jim clendenen's wines (always love the story about when he came out here as a youngster to work at tyrrells - murray tyrrell, a legend in aussie wine circles, walked up and told him if he wanted to come back a second day, he needed a hair cut. jim did not comply and so murray sacked him on day 2).

Didn't know that story - appears very fitting...!

[Ken Gargett]

Absoluely believe that, Ken!

And while the C.-S. is a solid wine (a +/- regular staple of mine, occasionally bought by the case), I agree, it is not at all a spectacular or perhaps an 'exciting' Bdx. But I believe always a very good and reliable value (together with others if you carefully look out). I've even occasionally "imported" my own Bdx directly ex chateau of small producers of the lesser appellations (e.g. Lalande de Pomerol) which don't use the negociant system. Good value to be found there!

I just don't see similar in Côte D'Or (you are welcome to PM me... )

That's exactly my "problem".

Don't get me wrong, I truly love good Burgundy, and agree with you, one of the best and most elegant wines we have on this planet. Still, I always get the feeling I am taken to the cleaners, as I can get as much enjoyment - perhaps not the "ethereal" experience, but still... - from other wines at a fraction of the price. I just checked back, one of the first Burg 1er Crus I bought, a Armand Rousseau, Gev. Chamb. 'Clos St Jacques' 1996, bought back in '99 went for about 65 $ (yet not a bargain at that time). Now, 17 years later, the average current price is given as about ten times that figure ($650!, new vintages almost in the same region), corresponding to an annual yield of almost 15 percent (well, had I known back then.... ). I think this really is in the lead compared to many other wine regions. Even Bordeaux, Barolo, Brunello et al. don't reach that.

Didn't know that story - appears very fitting...!

one of the problems is that rousseau is very much one of the greats. you will never see it cheap again. but there are others. you need a good local retailer who can point you in the right direction.