Butane and Altitude

[Drguano]

Just spent 36 hours in New Mexico at 6,000 feet. My 3€ Italian torch lighter would not light at all. My Iroda Microjet needed a lot of coaxing and eventually got the job done.. Got back to Minnesota and they are both very happy to ignite at 830 feet above MSL. I have the feeling I could have gotten them to work by purging and refilling but I did not want to buy another can of butane. I had matches as a backup but the Microjet feebly soldiered on.

Purging and refilling is like rebooting the PC. 

Anyone else have a theory?

[mrastigue]

I have been elk hunting at high elevation for almost two decades. The air pressure dies effect most butane torches/lighters. A few mfrs make lighters specifically for high elevation. I always take two of these with me.


MRastigue

[stogieluver]

ST Dupont makes the Defi Exreme which, I believe, is supposed to be a high altitude torch. 

[Habana Mike]

Here's my ski lighter. http://www.xikar.com/products/lighters/cirro/ - works at 15000' when it works

[NMJoe]

I've lived in NM my entire life and been smoking cigars for 25+ years. My lighters have always been reliable. I'm not sure if that's because they are filled at altitude or I'm just lucky. 

Where did you spend your time while you were here?

[PapaDisco]

Wouldn't just filling at altitude solve most of the problem? You're about 25% lower in air pressure at that altitude, so the relative air pressure in your lighter will be greater (since you filled it at a lower altitude) . . . maybe . . . or does the liquefaction of butane negate this effect?  

Doesn't eliminate the problem of having to buy a butane canister of course, but if it's just a matter of pressures then you can save the trouble of buying another lighter (that you can't take on a plane!)

[dvickery]

Basically

If the velocity of the butane leaving the lighter exceeds the rate of flame procreation for butane ... Lighter will not work .

the higher the pressure difference between fuel tank and atmosphere ... The higher the nozzle velocity of the fuel leaving the lighter .

derrek ( worked for 30 years for an oil company  )

[vladdraq]

Actually Xikar makes the "xikar stratosphere" lighter, claiming they will work on low pressure -high altitude . Pretty cheap and reliable lighter.

I own one, never smoked in the stratosphere though.

[PapaDisco]

Yes, BUT, since the good Doctor is traveling about the globe, he needs a lighter that can get on a plane, no?  The Iroda is the obvious choice for a jet/torch lighter that can travel, if one could solve the pressure differential problem.

Otherwise, if one lived at high altitude rather than traveled there it would be a different solution.  

[Corylax18]

I have used a basic bic lighter 100s of times at over 14,000 feet, so its not the altitude itself thats the problem. The bic lighters are designed to work within a pretty large range of conditions, but they seem to always work.

Along with the pressure, Oxygen levels in the atmosphere are also of note. There is still 20.9% oxygen in the air, but there is only about half as much air per cubic whatever. So the "relative" oxygen percentage is actually closer to 12%, much harder to make fire with half the oxygen. Combine this with @dvickery's oil field fire prevention methods and it creates tough conditions for most torch/jet lighters.

I believe the standard bics operate at a lower tank pressure/valve velocity than most higher end lighters. I don't know the exact science, but even living in Colorado and starting at around 5500 to 6000 feet I stopped carrying anything fancier than a bic into the mountains with me. Too much hassle. 

[FLB03TT]

I spend the summers at altitude - 7000 ft. - in Colorado and have never had a torch lighter work, except the FOH lighter featured on the daily 24:24. These work GREAT up high, no difference than at sea level. One thing I've observed is that, at altitude, they don't like to be over filled. If you fill about a third or so up the cylinder they work fine. 

[Hurltim]

I live at 6300' and have no issues. Go figure

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[garbandz]

here in the South,cold weather days can make my lighters fail.

Generally turning up the valve is all it takes...........

on warm days I have to turn them down again.

[Drguano]

On 9/25/2016 at 10:28 PM, NMJoe said:

I've lived in NM my entire life and been smoking cigars for 25+ years. My lighters have always been reliable. I'm not sure if that's because they are filled at altitude or I'm just lucky. 

Where did you spend your time while you were here?

My wife and I were there for 36 hours for a family reunion. We stayed at the Spy House on High Street and hung out in Old Town and Placitas.

 I am pretty sure that bleeding and reloading the lighter would have done the trick.

[PigFish]

I don't believe when and where you fill it makes a difference. Typically the 'orifice' of high altitude gas appliances is different form those of sea level appliances. With less air, you need less gas or the mixture leads to a carburized flame. These jet lighters use a mixing nozzle to premix the gas with air to give you that hot jet flame you like. It does not surprise me if they are actually 'tuned' to a specific range in atmospheric pressure.

As a pilot, we used a general rule of 1 inch of manifold pressure per thousand feet. So if 29.92 is standard atmospheric pressure at sea level, then you would lose 6 or 7 inches for 6 or 7K above MSL.

You need a turbo chargers for you lighter!!! -LOL -the Pig 

[NMJoe]

On 9/27/2016 at 0:17 PM, Drguano said:

My wife and I were there for 36 hours for a family reunion. We stayed at the Spy House on High Street and hung out in Old Town and Placitas.

 I am pretty sure that bleeding and reloading the lighter would have done the trick.

Well, I wouldn't call that part of town the best representation of our fine city (my corporate office moved out of downtown, partly due to safety concerns, 18 months ago ), but a lovely B&B.

Nonetheless, I hope you enjoyed your stay. If ever in Albuquerque again, I'd be happy to entertain and show you around.

 

NMJoe

[Fugu]

On 27/09/2016 at 8:49 PM, PigFish said:

I don't believe when and where you fill it makes a difference. Typically the 'orifice' of high altitude gas appliances is different form those of sea level appliances. With less air, you need less gas or the mixture leads to a carburized flame. These jet lighters use a mixing nozzle to premix the gas with air to give you that hot jet flame you like. It does not surprise me if they are actually 'tuned' to a specific range in atmospheric pressure.

Piggi is - and I am tempted to say, as usual - right on the money here. The cause is O2 partial pressure and nothing else. Where, i.e. at which ambient pressure you actually refill your lighter is pretty irrelevant, as you'll always fill to the pressure of your refill gas cartridge. Would be an issue if your lighter's tank were elastic, but it is a solid-wall tank. Both, cartridge and tank work independent of ambient pressure during the refill process.

[Drguano]

Makes sense. I was thinking higher the air pressure from the residual air trapped in the tank when filling in Minnesota would over pressurize the jet. This happens to my camelback water bottle when i take it on the plane. i forgot that the pressure from the butane canister is much higher than ambient air pressure at 830 feet above msl. so i'll need a high altitude jet lighter when I go back. Or a box of matches. 

[Fugu]

Not necessarily the higher pressure of the cartridge - this may vary widely depending on temperature and (a bit) on actual residual gas volume.

Brief excursion: Even at only a very slight positive net pressure the sheer larger volume of the cartridge usually drives the last bit of liquid gas into your lighter's tank. No, the internal pressure within the lighter's tank simply is independent of fill pressure (we are dealing with a non-compressible fluid here and not a gaseous gas that is being compressed to high overpressures). The pressure inside the lighter is exclusively determined by the boiling temperature of the gas (usually plain butane) and its actual temperature / heat. That is why e.g. near zero (°C) you have difficulties igniting your lighter (any kind of): There simply isn't enough butane in the gas phase then. Heating up to hand warmth usually helps in delivering enough gas pressure in the tank.

Even if it were so that ambient or residual tank pressure would have a say in the refill process - a simple calculation might help in understanding dimensions here: There would be 8 ml (your lighter's tank volume) @ let's say 1,000 mbar (ambient pressure = net zero overpressure in the completely empty tank), and 200 ml of gas cartridge @ 1,200 mbar (assuming only 0.2 bar overpressure), making a theoretical mixed total pressure (Boyle-Mariotte) of still 1,192 mbar... (for comp.: a theoretical refill at altitude, e.g. @ 700 mbar would give 1,181 mbar = a mere 1% difference in pressure!). However, this consideration is only of theoretical nature, completely ignoring the fact that the liquid gas has a low boiling point and always re-generates its own pressure due to gas evaporating from the liquid phase until the temp-dependent equilibrium in liquid- and gaseous phase is attained.

In a nutshell - the gas pressure of your lighter is only determined by how close you keep your lighter to your goolies....

 

[PigFish]

I have to wonder if when one says, 'it does not work' is the same as 'it does not ignite?' Technically they are not the same. The problem with these lighters, a lot of them, is the piezo type ignitor is very close to the nozzle. If you bury the ignitor in a pure gas stream it won't provide for combustion. I would say try turning the gas way down such that the gas stream has some chance of mixing with the air near the arc and that might provide some relief in the situation where the flame does not ignite. You could of course try igniting the flame post the starter. My guess is that many of these jets will 'work' but the initial ignition is the real problem.

Or get matches!!! -LOL

-Piggy

[LGC]

There are only 3 inputs to establishing a flame: ignition, fuel input, and O2.

-As long as you have a visual spark arcing across to the nozzle body, you are ok.

-At higher elevations, you simply don't have the same mass concentration of O2 available per cubic ft/m of air. With the same setup, any flame must be setup for a lower btu output in order to be reliable.

-You are talking about a cheap torch, so you are lucky if you have some control on fuel flow. Without any control over air flow and mixing, the only thing you can do is adjust the orifice on the fuel valve (if available). Higher fuel/flame velocities will not work as well for high elevations (without design modifications). The gas velocity is dependent upon the gas pressure (which is a function of the nozzle design, pressure drops in the system, fuel quality, vapor pressure, dimensions and cross section of the fuel tank, and temperature conditions).

The only option is to lower the fuel flow... if the lighter has an adjustable orifice. Your objective is to lower your gas velocities, while still maintaining sufficient mixing to maintain a flame. Any small soldering torch operates with a high velocity flame. A lower velocity flame on a flint and butane lighter will always be the most dependable at higher elevations (for simple systems). Since all gas nozzles aren't identical, some will work, and some won't.

FYI... I come from an engineering background and currently make a living working field service (not desk jockey) on natural gas burners for industrial processes (not residential). I work on practice, not on theory.

My advice to you would be to use a bic, or more expensive soldering torch that allow adjustments for fuel AND air flows.

... or stick with matches

[LGC]

Given your situation with a cheap torch and inspirating burner design (high velocity fuel fuel used to create a vacuum to draw combustion air into the steam)... I would have lowered the gas flow if an adjustment was available, or gradually drained the tank in order to attempt to lower the gas velocity across the nozzle.