"Sour Grapes"


BMWBen

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Has anyone else watched this documentary on Netflix? I watched it last night and thought it was pretty interesting.

From IMDB: This movie is a documentary about the fine and rare wine auction market centering around a counterfeiter who befriended the rich and powerful and sold millions of dollars of fraudulent wine through the top auction houses.

It's focused around Rudy Kurniawan's fake wine sales and how John Kapon helped sell them by turning a blind eye. You get a look into Bill Koch's wine cellar too which is incredible.

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I know some people in this circle and it was pretty slick how Rudy was able to play these people for suckers and most of them kept quiet as they did not want their ego or vanity shot by coming out as getting ripped off.  They'd rather take their licks than look like a fool...  It cost Rudy a lot of investment and showing off to build confidence...

A crook is a crook though...

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Saw it a few nights ago.  Very similar to the story told in The Billionaires Vinegar, whose prime culprit was Hardy Rodenstock.  His most well heeled victim was the same Coch brother in this film.  In fact, he showed the various Thomas Jefferson bottles he was duped on. Both Rudy and Hardy knew how to play to the egos of those involved.  I wonder what the cigar world equivalent of this fable is?

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53 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

 I wonder what the cigar world equivalent of this fable is?

Partagas Pyramides 2000 EL ...that's the incident that sticks out in recent memory for me.

However more recently, rumours about some recent releases may gather steam...

 

 

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53 minutes ago, rob said:

Partagas Pyramides 2000 EL ...that's the incident that sticks out in recent memory for me.

However more recently, rumours about some recent releases may gather steam...

 

 

Don't know about that one.  Was thinking large scale fraud along the same lines by an individual or group.  I know counterfeits are out there but is someone faking cigar vintages to the same degree as these two did with wine?  If so , refrain from using real names of anyone who is active and not accused / convicted.

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looking forward to seeing it, but have read heaps about rudi K, from when he was the toast of the wine world, to his fall into disgrace.

rodenstock has always denied all charges and i believe has never been convicted of anything, though it would be fair to say that no one in the wine world has any doubts that things were dodgy, at best.

'billionaire's vinegar' a great book but it got pulled, i believe, because michael broadbent, from christies in london, felt it made him look like a dimwitted dupe. which it did. never met kapon but have friends who know him well. they don't see him as dodgy. more like someone who was duped, as was broadbent, but both should perhaps have taken more care.

at a tasting a while back in europe, one of the guys there, a well respected writer, said he actually believes that rodenstock was the "greatest winemaker of the 20th century", though it is stretching things in a way. they say the difference between his fakes and rudi's is that rodenstock's fakes were actually stunning wines. rudi's were crap.

they told me the recipe for a 47 cheval - if i recall, 50% of a good 70s vintage of pichon lalande, 25% of a good old Napa cab and 25% of a good young Napa cab. he literally had worked out recipes for the world's great wines. i had a 29 romanee-conti last year with these guys. perhaps the greatest wine of my life. and yet there was a nagging feeling it might be a fake - we don't know and i prefer to think not - because they are so so rare that there may actually be none left. my question was how the hell can you make a wine that good if it is a fake?

but it has thrown the vintage wine market into turmoil and one no longer has the trust one had.

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13 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

'billionaire's vinegar' a great book but it got pulled, i believe, because michael broadbent, from christies in london, felt it made him look like a dimwitted dupe. which it did. never met kapon but have friends who know him well. they don't see him as dodgy. more like someone who was duped, as was broadbent, but both should perhaps have taken more care.

The part of the doc that had me questioning Kapon was how many fake wines he auctioned that never existed, shown in this scene:

"Laurent Ponsot described how he became concerned in April 2008, when he received an email from a friend about bottles of Clos Saint-Denis 1945 from his family’s estate that were imminently up for auction in New York. ‘The Clos Saint-Denis is an appellation that we started in 1982,’ he told jurors. When shown bottles of Clos Saint-Denis from previous decades, including from the 1959 and 1962 vintages, he added, ‘this cannot exist. It’s obvious.’ After hearing of the auction, Ponsot said he jumped straight on a plane, arrived at the sale ten minutes after it started, and persuaded the auction house, Acker Merrall & Condit, to withdraw the wines – which it did."

But that could also just be chalked up to greed and John not caring what he sold as long as it was selling for $$$. Pretty sloppy on Rudys part as well.

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46 minutes ago, BMWBen said:

The part of the doc that had me questioning Kapon was how many fake wines he auctioned that never existed, shown in this scene:

"Laurent Ponsot described how he became concerned in April 2008, when he received an email from a friend about bottles of Clos Saint-Denis 1945 from his family’s estate that were imminently up for auction in New York. ‘The Clos Saint-Denis is an appellation that we started in 1982,’ he told jurors. When shown bottles of Clos Saint-Denis from previous decades, including from the 1959 and 1962 vintages, he added, ‘this cannot exist. It’s obvious.’ After hearing of the auction, Ponsot said he jumped straight on a plane, arrived at the sale ten minutes after it started, and persuaded the auction house, Acker Merrall & Condit, to withdraw the wines – which it did."

But that could also just be chalked up to greed and John not caring what he sold as long as it was selling for $$$. Pretty sloppy on Rudys part as well.

it was those ponsot wines that started the ball rolling on him. so yes, sloppy all round.

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I've played around with blending vintages of port to see if I can make them taste "old" or what-have-you...  We were duped once & bought a fake vintage of Croft from the 30's.  Wasn't even grape wine from a vintage that wasn't even a "declared" Croft vintage.  Sometimes, notes on what was declared can be murky with Port...  We thought that perhaps it could've been a SQVP or something...

There's so much fake wine and whiskey on the market, that it's almost a fools errand to buy either (of the stuff that could be faked).  Unless you are buying estates or are guaranteed provenance; proceed with caution.  Next time you're at Changi Airport, look at that fine wine section.  There's more '45 Mouton with newish labels in the fridge than there is probably real Mouton of that vintage available in world.  They sells cases & cases of it a year...

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6 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I've played around with blending vintages of port to see if I can make them taste "old" or what-have-you...  We were duped once & bought a fake vintage of Croft from the 30's.  Wasn't even grape wine from a vintage that wasn't even a "declared" Croft vintage.  Sometimes, notes on what was declared can be murky with Port...  We thought that perhaps it could've been a SQVP or something...

There's so much fake wine and whiskey on the market, that it's almost a fools errand to buy either (of the stuff that could be faked).  Unless you are buying estates or are guaranteed provenance; proceed with caution.  Next time you're at Changi Airport, look at that fine wine section.  There's more '45 Mouton with newish labels in the fridge than there is probably real Mouton of that vintage available in world.  They sells cases & cases of it a year...

not much single quinta stuff back in the 30s, bar nacional.

not seen much faked port. they seem to stick more to bordeaux and now burgundy and a few others. no doubt it is coming.

i bought a 29 Taylors once. at auction. knew the auctioneers well and they assured me the source was legit. problem was no 1929 declared by taylors. it only had a small personal sticker on it - a lot of port back then didn't bother with labels and people just kept track of their own purchases. i paid a fair whack for it but i was hoping it might be a 27 taylors, or possibly the 45 or 48, and they might have got it wrong. even got in touch with people i know at taylors in case it was made but never released and this one had snuck out somehow.

anyway, opened it at a lunch for a few friends a few years back. we took a punt. when the cork came out (which was the only way we were ever going to know what it really was), i could not believe it. it was not the 27. or 45 or 48. it was a 1931 quinta do noval. worth about ten times what i had paid. and it was in perfect condition. exquisite.

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1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

it was a 1931 quinta do noval. worth about ten times what i had paid. and it was in perfect condition. exquisite.

No kidding...  That is one of the best ports ever.  I have had it once and it lived up to the hype.  

Port is being fake in much bigger numbers right now, especially in Portugal.  All old bottles, especially Niepoort.  I know a few people who got ripped off online.  I would be very cautious buying old port if you do go to Portugal and not buying from the Quinta direct.

I had a couple of friend over the weekend and we had '63 Dow, '63 Sandeman, 40 year Dow Tawny, and 40 year Sandeman Tawny.  This is weekend, it's '77 vs. '80, and maybe one '45 throw in for good measure.

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Saw it a few nights ago.  Very similar to the story told in The Billionaires Vinegar, whose prime culprit was Hardy Rodenstock.  His most well heeled victim was the same Coch brother in this film.  In fact, he showed the various Thomas Jefferson bottles he was duped on. Both Rudy and Hardy knew how to play to the egos of those involved.  I wonder what the cigar world equivalent of this fable is?



There was a huge scam with fake Dunhill and Davidoff run by Bruce Taira and Mike Barsyk on some forums years ago.


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I also watched this recently. Pretty interesting story considering I went into it just thinking it was another wine doc.

What I found so amazing was that everyone marveled about how great of a palate this guy had and could rattle off the names and vintages at will. Kind of a shame that he was using those skills to scam but I guess that is the life of a crook. Sometimes I just laugh when I see some recent auction prices. Not saying I wouldn't love to try some of the great vintages but hard for me to imagine being able to spend like that :daydream: 

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15 hours ago, miamipadronsmoker said:

There was a huge scam with fake Dunhill and Davidoff run by Bruce Taira and Mike Barsyk on some forums years ago.
 

I remember reading that 20+ page thread/investigation on the, on the site which shall remain nameless and which I managed to get banned from.  :lookaround:  :lol:  That was an excellent read as the parties involved went to great pains to duplicate the cigar bands and some experts were able to pick apart the discrepancies between them.  And some with the smoking experience with those two fabled marcas,  even smoked the fakes and made a quick judgement as to their pedigree.

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19 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

No kidding...  That is one of the best ports ever.  I have had it once and it lived up to the hype.  

Port is being fake in much bigger numbers right now, especially in Portugal.  All old bottles, especially Niepoort.  I know a few people who got ripped off online.  I would be very cautious buying old port if you do go to Portugal and not buying from the Quinta direct.

I had a couple of friend over the weekend and we had '63 Dow, '63 Sandeman, 40 year Dow Tawny, and 40 year Sandeman Tawny.  This is weekend, it's '77 vs. '80, and maybe one '45 throw in for good measure.

it was a bit special and an amazing surprise. curious why people would fake old neipoort. the recent stuff with dirk in control has been stellar but they were hardly flash in past decades. 63 dows is a fave. and i would imagine 77 would thrash the daylights out of 80.

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15 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

it was a bit special and an amazing surprise. curious why people would fake old neipoort. the recent stuff with dirk in control has been stellar but they were hardly flash in past decades. 63 dows is a fave. and i would imagine 77 would thrash the daylights out of 80.

I am not sure why old Niepoort is big for being faked in Portugal.  It can be that consumers may not know what to look for on old bottles like they would on Taylor and like?

'77 is the most overhyped vintage IMO.  With Dow, there is a lot of cork variance and I no longer chase that vintage.  I did a '77 vs. '85 over the summer and '85 was beating it out.  We did Taylor, Fonseca, and Graham.

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7 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

I am not sure why old Niepoort is big for being faked in Portugal.  It can be that consumers may not know what to look for on old bottles like they would on Taylor and like?

'77 is the most overhyped vintage IMO.  With Dow, there is a lot of cork variance and I no longer chase that vintage.  I did a '77 vs. '85 over the summer and '85 was beating it out.  We did Taylor, Fonseca, and Graham.

interesting. 77 was the first vintage i was around for (in buying terms). still love them and have more in the cellar (not that much sadly) of 77 than any other vintage. love them. had a lot of wonderful 77s. certainly have not encountered the same cork issues with dows or others (had one evening at a mate's where he opened three VPs - different vintages and different houses. all three corked). but i do like 85s as well. but those three are probably the 3 best 77s or close so if they don't stand up, not a great sign. have not seen the fonseca recently but the others have looked wonderful.

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2 hours ago, BrightonCorgi said:

Our plans for the Sunday are now set.  '77 Dow, '77 Fonseca, '77 Warres, '80 Dow, and '80 Graham.

Tonight is going to be special, we are opening a '48 Fonseca!!!

been very keen to hear how it goes. never tried the 48 fonseca but lots of positive things about it. a few years ago, a group of us decided on lunch as i had a 48 taylors which needed drinking. everyone contributed. then i started getting interstate phone calls from friends and winemakers. we ended up with about 18 vintages of taylors back to 24. amazing day.

we now meet once a year with a different theme each year. few years ago, we did barolo (though usually burgs) and franco conterno came along. terrific bloke and so good to have such knowledge there.

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'48 Fonseca has really sublime.  Still grapey!  Awesome color and plenty of life to it.  Would've thought it was a '66 or even younger.  Did not drink like a pretty old port.  I gave it 98 points.

77 vs 80; the WOTN was tie between the '77 Warres and '80 Graham.  '77 Dow was little off, '77 Fonseca was tasty, and '80 Dow was still young.  For me it was 3 points between the lowest and best, but the color an appearance of the '80 was more than just 3 years younger.  I am not going to chase any '77 vintage at this point.  Next year I bet a lot will be consumed globally as it is an anniversary year.

Saturday night I had an '85 Croft (nothing special, but better than I remember) along with a magnum '02 López de Heredia Viña Tondonia.

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