Demise of RyJ marca

[watches_whiskies_cigars]

I feel that the RyJ marca has slipped into a slow demise over the years and is pretty moribund now. When H Upmann was moved into the RyJ factory in 2011, the decline has only accelerated. Looking across the RyJ portfolio, I don't come across any vitolas being rolled in the RyJ factory (now known as the H Upmann factory with current code MEG). RyJ production has been spread across multiple factories. What are others' thoughts on it?

[NSXCIGAR]

I agree RyJ isn't what it used to be. Several models seemed to come back to life around 13-14 but recent production has not continued that trend. RyJ has been in the doldrums since about 2000, with 2003 being an exception (as it was for many marcas) but for the most part RyJ has struggled mightily for a very long time. I will also say that I loved RyJ when I first began smoking CCs. In fact, I really only smoked 4 marcas--Bolivar, Punch, Partagas and RyJ. The Ex4 was one of my favorite cigars. The tropical fruit explosion that was a 90s Ex4 was simply amazing. Hopefully, the marca can get back on track at some point.

[watches_whiskies_cigars]

18 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I agree RyJ isn't what it used to be. Several models seemed to come back to life around 13-14 but recent production has not continued that trend. RyJ has been in the doldrums since about 2000, with 2003 being an exception (as it was for many marcas) but for the most part RyJ has struggled mightily for a very long time. I will also say that I loved RyJ when I first began smoking CCs. In fact, I really only smoked 4 marcas--Bolivar, Punch, Partagas and RyJ. The Ex4 was one of my favorite cigars. The tropical fruit explosion that was a 90s Ex4 was simply amazing. Hopefully, the marca can get back on track at some point.

Exactly. RyJ today isn't what it used to be in yesteryears and it can't be explained merely by tobacco shortages. With production peppered among various factories, I feel there's no central QC oversight particularly when it comes to blending. The Capuletos aren't being rolled at the H Upmann factory based on everything I've seen so far, but admittedly I haven't followed them as I generally eschew from ELs.

[JohnS]

Of course I concur with what's been said so far in this thread, and I was having this very same conversation with some other cigar enthusiasts a few weeks ago (i.e. we've had no luck with finding flavoursome RyJ Churchills the last year or two), but in regards to the marca, it's apparent demise in quality is probably only felt by the minority (i.e. we serious hobbyists/collectors). Judging by the 20 vitolas in current production (approximately 1 in 9), RyJ's reputation is enough to propagate sales for the masses, who lack the acumen to decipher the difference between bland toasted tobacco and the ripe fruity/cherry flavour which many of us admire.

Sometimes, you enjoy surprises, such as the delicious LCDH RyJ Cedros de Luxe I was gifted to sample a few months ago at a get together. Such 'sour cherry' goodness cannot be forgotten quickly, I tell you!

[SignalJoe]

I have to disagree.  I have a box of Churchill's (PMU NOV 14) which exhibit all the cherry flavor one would expect from the marca.  I have yet to sample from the MUL JUN 15 box in the humidor.  I have only smoked one of the Capuletos from my TOS SEP 16 box and feel they need some aging to reach their potential.  Though I have spent the last few years trying to expand my tastes with various marcas and vitolas the RyJ Churchill remains my favorite. 

[earthson]

Man - sounds like I should have been smoking these in the 90s! I've found the brand to be excellent when ON, but there is a bit of crap out there.

[Smallclub]

1 hour ago, SenorPerfecto said:

But it has never really been a top tier marca, has it? Numbers are too big...

??

I've never heard of a "top tiers marca"… The Cubans have established a ranking of brands according to the volume of sales, distribution and international notoriety.  It's the "pyramid of marcas", composed of five levels. RyJ is at the 2nd level, while Cuaba belongs to the top ("alto") level along with Cohiba, Montecristo and Trinidad .

But who takes this kind of ranking seriously?

[polarbear]

Demise is probably the wrong word
Considering their line up is one of the more "stacked" in the HSA portfolio, one could argue the marca is doing fine
Especially considering RyJ has had a decent EL and LCDH release both in the last 5 years.
The same cant be said for marcas like Por Larranaga or SCDH or Juan Lopez (that being said, they're not Global brands).

I'll admit, quality on certain vitolas seems to be down (and some were never that good to begin with) but a lot of that could just be what the members here see on a daily basis.
With Robs QA standards being as high as they are, its rare to see most of Marcas represented in the 24@24 regularly. Also, I imagine the cigars selected for 24@24s are ones Rob knows will sell, and a lot of the RyJ portfolio isn't super popular among the masses
If one were to email rob and requested him (nicely) to find a good box of Cedros De Luxe No.2 or Millie Fleurs on his next warehouse trip, I wonder how long it would take before he found one

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

[NSXCIGAR]

4 hours ago, SignalJoe said:

I have to disagree.  I have a box of Churchill's (PMU NOV 14) which exhibit all the cherry flavor one would expect from the marca.

I did acknowledge in my post that RyJ had a resurgence of sorts in 13 and 14, in particular, there was high praise for the Churchill and Ex4, as well as the PC and Cazadores. In fact, I believe the Churchill was one of Rob's cigars of the year. However, I don't believe this continued past 14. 15 and 16 production has received much poorer feedback. I can tell you that I received an OPG JUL 14 A/T 10 box of Churchills that was just awful--rated them in the mid-80s. I did not get them from Rob, but it was a trusted vendor. So even in 14, there were some real dud RyJs. 

[Duxnutz]

Have some '15 churchills that are smoking great, likewise Cazadores and Wides. Oh and am onto my second box of Ryj Mille Fleurs from '14 and now '15. 

Dunno about '16 production but Ryj for my money has been quite reliable lately. The Wides I've even had people buy blind that don't know a cigar from a toothbrush. 

 

[Iznogood]

How often do we see RyJ on 24:24?

[subport]

I was lucky enough to pick up churchills from '14, '15 rated psp/hq by Rob. Cant comment on the '15 (in olh) but the '14 smokes beautifully. Have Cazadores from '15 and '16. Absolutely stunning cigars. But it can be the top 10% what Rob separates from the crap. Have no idea myself. '14 pe ex.no4 smokes great too.

still the mass of the production can be on a rollercoster...and generally down from 13...

[JohnS]

2 hours ago, Iznogood said:

How often do we see RyJ on 24:24?

Good point. Lately, I don't think often enough.

[subport]

22 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Good point. Lately, I don't think often enough.

Nope. Not enough for sure. Would be great to see Ex. No.3 though :/

[SignalJoe]

@NSXCIGAR My disagreement is based on two premises.  1) The RyJ marca has generally been held in poor regard since I started smoking CCs (2005). 2) My disagreement is more with the word "demise" versus perhaps the more accurate "decline."  

While I appreciate that we all have different palates I have read and heard about how awful the marca is over the years and have yet to personally experience it.  I would echo Polarbear's point that the profile of the RyJ portfolio speaks for itself.  HSA is not shy about deleting vitolas that don't sell. Surely my sporadic purchases of three vitolas are not keeping the marca afloat.  

If would say the "decline" of RyJ is shared by all marcas and is most often just chalked up to "Cuba being Cuba."  Look at popularity of 24:24, certainly prices are a factor but I'm confident the reason most enjoy it is the QC prospect of it.  It provides us an opportunity to know the quality we are buying (all marcas show up on clearance Monday).  We continue to buy because we know that when we get that prime box (PSP) it will be sublime and we suffer through the mediocrities in between due to that knowledge.  It just seems that some choose to single out RyJ for some reason.    

[mrretrohale]

6 hours ago, Iznogood said:

How often do we see RyJ on 24:24?

Last time I saw, it was 7th Feb.. Wide churchills..

[rhcolbert]

I have a 06 box of ex4 and a 14 box of belicosos that are both amazing. Had 5x3 or short Churchill that were boring. 2/3 has worked well, but not statistically relevant to comment. 

[CaptainQuintero]

I feel the opposite. RyJ was a premium brand, if there ever was one, right up until the 2000-2013 period. It was downright shameful during that time but since then it had gone from strength to strength:

Short Churchill

Wide Churchill

Churchill

Excibition#4

PC

Cazadores 

Are all brilliant (in general, as much as a CC can be) real love is being shown to them.

Add to the fact that the Mille Fleur, cedros and numbered lines are the backbone of keeping tabacuba afloat, the situation seems positively rosey.

When they are on they are some of the most unique cigars out there and it seems that someone in tabacuba has realised how good RyJ can be if treated right, and just how important RyJ is to the success of the Cuban cigar business.

 

[NSXCIGAR]

8 hours ago, SignalJoe said:

@NSXCIGAR My disagreement is based on two premises.  1) The RyJ marca has generally been held in poor regard since I started smoking CCs (2005). 2) My disagreement is more with the word "demise" versus perhaps the more accurate "decline."  

While I appreciate that we all have different palates I have read and heard about how awful the marca is over the years and have yet to personally experience it.  I would echo Polarbear's point that the profile of the RyJ portfolio speaks for itself.  HSA is not shy about deleting vitolas that don't sell. Surely my sporadic purchases of three vitolas are not keeping the marca afloat.  

If would say the "decline" of RyJ is shared by all marcas and is most often just chalked up to "Cuba being Cuba."  Look at popularity of 24:24, certainly prices are a factor but I'm confident the reason most enjoy it is the QC prospect of it.  It provides us an opportunity to know the quality we are buying (all marcas show up on clearance Monday).  We continue to buy because we know that when we get that prime box (PSP) it will be sublime and we suffer through the mediocrities in between due to that knowledge.  It just seems that some choose to single out RyJ for some reason.    

Definitely agree "demise" is not an accurate word. I think "decline" is appropriate in terms of quality and reputation, not necessarily "status", as the status and sales figures have remained intact. But I do agree with CaptainQuintero that RyJ was held in very high regard and considered very high quality prior to 2000. The lineup was jam-packed with quality models. The state of RyJ for over a decade was shameful, particularly at times when many other marcas were really shining around 07-09. 

My opinions reflect the general level of praise regarding the marca which was very strong around 13-14 and seems to have taken a step backwards as a whole in 15-16. They're just not reliable to the point where I'd drop my coin on any right now. You may have had a different experience with some recent examples, but this is simply not reflective of reviews as a whole in the last 2 years.

And it is a shame, as when RyJ is on, it can be a wonderful marca. For me personally, RyJ is the marca I'm the most cautious about coming back to. I need to see some serious extended gains before I move toward it again. There are just too many consistent winners right now for me to risk my coin on the marca that has had the worst slump of any in the Altadis era. I just began going back to Punch as it was suffering in a similar way since 2000, but the extended and continued gains it's had since 2013 have earned my attention and dollars back. 

[NSXCIGAR]

11 hours ago, Iznogood said:

How often do we see RyJ on 24:24?

I could be wrong, and Rob can of course confirm this, but I'd venture to guess he 1) hasn't been happy enough with recent production to offer them and/or 2) the quality he's seeing come through simply isn't up to snuff. I recall during the RyJ strong period of 13-14 they were on the 24:24 nearly weekly if not every week. As I mentioned, the Churchill of 13-14 was one of Rob's cigars of the year. I believe the Churchill has only appeared once in the last few months and possibly all the way back to mid-16 if memory serves me correctly. I believe a Wide or Short Churchill has appeared once or twice, and the Cazzies once or twice, but certainly the number of RyJ offerings have significantly declined over the last 18 months. I'd like to hear Rob's take on the RyJ situation.

[BrightonCorgi]

The marketing of R&J doesn't help.  It's one the least "hip" brands and even when there's a new model it's met with little fanfare.  The brand is becoming a relic of previous era and Habanos doesn't seem to want to give the Marca a make over.  

[fabes]

1 hour ago, BrightonCorgi said:

The marketing of R&J doesn't help.  It's one the least "hip" brands and even when there's a new model it's met with little fanfare.  The brand is becoming a relic of previous era and Habanos doesn't seem to want to give the Marca a make over.  

This sums it up for me. Watching television it's always the older guy that smokes cigars bragging about his Romeo & Juliets "they're cuban"... so yeah plenty of name recognition, little fanfare.

Non-smokers even know RyJ, but tell them you're smoking a SLR or Juan Lopez and they will be 

So demise or decline? Perhaps among enthusiasts and passionate cigar smokers, but why do they have so many vitolas (even redundancies) and yet other marcas are decimated and more/less unknown outside the cigar community?

 

[El Presidente]

R&J Factory was a vibrant place full of characters and R&J "tragics" who truly associated themselves with the Marque. They were R&J through and through. 

Then they closed the factory (2004 from memory), keeping the Divan downstairs. Up until that time, it was my favourite cigar destination in Cuba. 

You can't replace those people, that love, that camaraderie. 

R&J cigars (as a generalisation) in terms of quality went into freefall. 

Yes, I would see some good cigars come through, tasted some excellent R&J but you had to see the quality of E4, Churchill etc. Overall, appalling. 

The release of the Short Churchill in 2006 was a boost. The cigar was excellent as was initial quality. Quality has deteriorated in the past 3-4 years. Surprisingly the R&J Wide Churchill has maintained a high standard since 2010 release. 

2013 saw the comeback of the R&J Exhibicion 4. The best since the 90's. For almost a year we were blessed with some of the most complex cigars imaginable. Quality has dropped off on those from the high water mark but they are still tasty as hell. 

2013 also saw the comeback of the Romeo y julieta Churchill. That run of overall excellence ran through to about late 2015. Again the best run since the mid 90's. 

To my mind, R&J has taken some big strides from the abyss of the 2004-2012 period. It is still patchy however but I am not sure it is any more patchy than most other major marques. 

You still can't replace those core people however.  I miss that place. 

 

 

[Hedgehog]

7 hours ago, mrretrohale said:

Last time I saw, it was 7th Feb.. Wide churchills..

11 hours ago, JohnS said:

Good point. Lately, I don't think often enough.

I scored a box of PSP Churchills from a 24:24 back in October.  I think it was an all-PSP listing and it didn't even sell out.  Maybe i'm wrong on that.  They've been resting here and can't wait to try one out when the weather is nicer.

[Corylax18]

I am smoking through a 2006 box of Tres Petite Coronas right now. Some are great, others, like the one I just finished have been very underwhelming. They show the potential on the fringes, but I have little faith they will develop into something spectacular, or even as good as the better ones from the same box. I have also been working through a late 2015 box of Churchills. They are much better and more consistent. Very light in body but smooth and refined smoked.