e-mail of the month and why we don't discuss other vendors.

[El Presidente]

I recently received the below e-mail. it has been sorted out since but I thought it worthwhile to explain our mindset to newer FOH members who may be wondering. 

Anyway here was the original email. 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

While I enjoy the forum, I would like to take you to task on the lack of information of global fake cigar sellers.

Your blanket ban on the discussion of vendors only allows fake suppliers to flourish at the expense of cigar buyers worldwide and no doubt some of your own members as well.

Who are you protecting and why are you protecting them? Why aren’t you doing everything possible to stop them? Is there something that I am missing? Perhaps something a little more sinister? Others have no such problem such as http://www.cigaranalysis.com/fake-cuban-cigars/

I would like a timely response when you are able. I know you are busy. 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I have no problem posting the cigaranalysis link. From what I can see they do a good job with no hidden agendas. Anyone who hates SoloCigars has an ally in me 

Is their information 100% correct across the whole site?. No idea. I haven't checked it. 

But what I saw in a matter of minutes was the reason why we don't permit such discussions here. 

Head to their comments section to understand why. 

Someone will ask a question ....what about XYZ company?

Someone will post....Fakes! I received some poor HDM Epi 2. 

Another will post ....legit dealer! No problem. 

Another....Fakes!.....and so it goes on. 

One of the dealers raised in the comments section is straight as an arrow.....and that is the problem. 

Libel laws in this country are deadly serious and what is discussed on the forum is on my shoulders.  Yes I may bash HSA at times....but "truth" is a defence in such cases 

But the accusation of a vendor selling fakes when he is not will put me in a pretty pickle of poo. 

The onus of proof is on me and my argument of "Your Honour, FOH member CluelessNoNads  was pretty sure he was right as the warranty seal wasn't on straight" just doesn't cut the legal mustard. 

So that is why we don't do it here. Not much to gain, plenty to lose. 

Just avoid Solo and the many variations. You are nuts if you purchase from any online caribbean dealer. Multiple websites of the same owner/different names. Ask yourself why?...then ask them. Legendary and hard to get cigars out or cookie cutter websites....pass. Super cheap pricing on everything....and they have everything....pass.  

If you have a serious question ask for a PM from experienced members.  

 

 

 

[AlohaStyle]

Sure hope that wasn't Damian himself that emailed you... advertising his own laughable site and all.   

[NSXCIGAR]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

Who are you protecting and why are you protecting them? Why aren’t you doing everything possible to stop them?

Apparently you, El Pres, have been appointed global policeman charged with eradicating all online Cuban cigar fraud? Right.

As there is sales being conducted on the forum, I completely understand the ban on open vendor discussions. The suggestion that by not discussing vendors you are shielding fraudsters is a giant, absurd leap. And as you bring up, Australian laws are particularly austere in matters such as these, and you really have little choice in the matter.

cigaranalysis isn't a vendor, and yes, they do attempt to serve as a vendor legitimacy guide. I have issues with some of the things I saw there as you do, and the response I received from whoever is running the site was less than satisfactory and borderline hostile. While not outright labeling them purveyors of fakes, they have called into question several vendors that I know to be legitimate including one many of us know well, and is 100% legitimate. But that's what they do. That's not what FOH does. 

Many of us have been around the block for many years, and as you say a PM can be sent to Rob or any number of us asking our opinions on a vendor if that's important to them.

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, AlohaStyle said:

Sure hope that wasn't Damian himself that emailed you... advertising his own laughable site and all.   

I honestly have no idea who Damian is nor the people behind Ciganalysis. 

When it comes to media be it CA/CJ/CCW/Blogs/Vids....good luck to them all if they promote information and discussion. 

This is a question that gets raised to myself on a regular basis. It was a good opportunity to address it. 

 

[archosaur]

Wow, nice email. They sound like a real joy to be around...when they are not hard at work, cracking down on sinister conspiracies and such

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[kalibratecuba]

I hear a similar 'voice' in that email and the comments section of Cigar Analysis. He needs to settle down and enjoy a cigar and Valium.

The cigar in my mouth muffles my thoughts about you.

[SignalJoe]

 “People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use" 

Soren Keirkegaard 

 

[Fugu]

Nice and friendly demanding tone there, eh?

Yes, strongly support that policy, Rob. Not possible here, period. Otherwise, you'd always expose yourself to allegations of conflict of interest and even more "sinister" reasoning....

Discussison of fakes - fine. PMs between members about sources - fine. Other than that - check elsewhere.

[s1911]

I agree, why in the world would you need to go into battle with every online vendor via your forum?

In 2017 if you can't figure out how to get a "real" Cuban cigar you've got some serious issues.

[canadianbeaver]

That would not be the e-mail of the month from the forum.

It would be,

Dear CUNTINT,

Have you got anything longer, thicker and older?

Sincerely,

Canadianbeaver

[stunod]

I really enjoy reading these. Whackos

[Fuzz]

12 minutes ago, canadianbeaver said:

That would not be the e-mail of the month from the forum.

It would be,

Dear CUNTINT,

Have you got anything longer, thicker and older?

Sincerely,

Canadianbeaver

This is over 21,000 years old. Does it count?

 

[AlohaStyle]

8 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 

cigaranalysis isn't a vendor, and yes, they do attempt to serve as a vendor legitimacy guide. I have issues with some of the things I saw there as you do, and the response I received from whoever is running the site was less than satisfactory and borderline hostile. While not outright labeling them purveyors of fakes, they have called into question several vendors that I know to be legitimate including one many of us know well, and is 100% legitimate. But that's what they do. That's not what FOH does. 

 

 

That's the thing, the guy does have his own online shop and sells cigar.  That's why he tries to discredit legitimate vendors.  He also discredits legitimate vendors on a certain FB group.  And he acts the same way in dealing with customers.  

[Drguano]

3 hours ago, canadianbeaver said:

That would not be the e-mail of the month from the forum.

It would be,

Dear CUNTINT,

Have you got anything longer, thicker and older?

Sincerely,

Canadianbeaver

I'm denser and just turned 65... 

[Jfeath74]

FOH member CluelessNoNads is legitimately hilarious. Some people love to push boundaries and potentially screw up a good thing... Keep up the good work and the growing number of satisfied customers across the globe hopefully outweighs the handful of morons. 

[PigFish]

Rob, I know from experience that open vendor discussions only belong on a private forum. Fakes or not, frankly I have seen too many witch hunts in my time, mostly from a pack of morons who won't even smoke a cigar, but will whip out a caliper and check to see if the distance of the tax stamp from the edge of the box is the same as the the picture that they have in MRN's book, blown up and scaled to size.

Some vendors deserve all that they get. Unfortunately I have seen threads where every vendor and I mean every vendor is accused of selling frauds...

These 'witch hunt' threads are very much like 'what should I buy threads.' In that, if they are up long enough, every vendor will be mentioned. It is par for the course.

You guys do a great job of managing the site overall. You know that I am involved in a private site and with that experience, I actually figured that FoH, a public site would have never survived. I am very glad that I was wrong. I am one of FoH's oldest active members, as you know.

You don't owe the 'community' a damn thing my friend. It is your site, you are doing it right and I am proud to be a member here.

I don't bother with any other public cigar forums. They are (my generalization) a wasteland of misinformation and a waste of my time.

Cheers mate. -Ray

[stogieluver]

Rob, by "sorted out" I hope you mean you either taught this jerk some manners or sent him packing. 

[NSXCIGAR]

5 hours ago, AlohaStyle said:

 

That's the thing, the guy does have his own online shop and sells cigar.  That's why he tries to discredit legitimate vendors.  He also discredits legitimate vendors on a certain FB group.  And he acts the same way in dealing with customers.  

I wasn't aware of this as I haven't visited the site recently and have no interest in doing so. That's just another indication that he appears to be a shill for the competition as the vendors he calls into question in the blog section are almost certainly legitimate, and two of them are unquestionably legitimate, and one Rob knows personally.

If this site really cared about identifying legitimate vendors and supporting them those handful of vendors wouldn't be anywhere near that section of the blog. Quite interesting that two of those vendors are probably the most popular vendors in the world, so it makes sense to attack them, or at least imply that they may not be legitimate, which that blog basically does. 

[Danimalia]

It seems any discussion I've seen on any forum about CC vendors turns out a bunch of differing opinions. As far as I can tell, it's pointless and does little but confuse everyone. And of course, there's all the "experts" making declarative facts with weak evidence or bad information. 

Frankly, it is refreshing to NOT have that here. And for those who are looking for info on vendors, PMs with members here have yielded positive results. People are very willing to help. Just put in a bit of leg work and interact some. You get so much out of it here.

[Nico]

As pigfish stated, every vendor is accused of selling fakes. If you just google hard enough you'll find someone somewhere claiming they got fakes. Problem is also that some review sites always has a comment or three that they received fakes. And if it's not that, then it's hassle with the shipment and the vendor refuses to return the money or something. It would actually be interesting to know who some of these people are that complains about fakes or customer service...

It makes sort of sense that foh doesn't allow discussion of other vendors for the simple reason that it's run by one but I also don't understand why it's such a sensitive topic in a general sense either. In one of the threads (can't remember if it was about the new monte dantes, hdm lcdh or punch 48), people talked about a certain vendor that started a pre order but none would even mention the name, only "a certain famous vendor in Europe" or something was the only description and people were like "oh yes I think I know who you're taking about". The rule of not even mentioning names, why is that I may ask? When I brought it up on our Swedish cigar forum a few years ago people were (very) reluctant to answer. The only real answer I got was that people don't want to disclose their source in fear that the custom have a eye on the forum, or if they discover a larger amount of packages suddenly being shipped from a country and start to investigate it. I can understand that in part but with the amount of packages and letters coming into Sweden, and drugs being shipped nowadays it seems a little unreasonable and weird prioritizing. I doubt that it's the whole explanation of this secrecy.
I can sometimes understand it's easier to just have a clear rule and that's that. "no talking about other vendors" with no ifs or exceptions. Then people don't have to wonder what they can or can't say, worrying about breaking the rules, and so on. While I don't agree with the person that sent the email asking these questions, and how he asked them, he touched a subject I've been thinking about for a long time now. It seems like it's part of the cigar culture to not talk about, or even mentioning vendors and I don't understand the reason behind that.




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[tengel78]

Interesting reads on that site, especially the one on Duty Free Zone WebSites.  The one vendor mentioned is widely trusted and used by many on here as well, so I would be shocked if they were fake since I have bought from him several times and never questioned the legitimacy of his products. 

[Fuzz]

7 minutes ago, Nico said:

As pigfish stated, every vendor is accused of selling fakes. If you just google hard enough you'll find someone somewhere claiming they got fakes. Problem is also that some review sites always has a comment or three that they received fakes. And if it's not that, then it's hassle with the shipment and the vendor refuses to return the money or something. It would actually be interesting to know who some of these people are about fakes or customer service...

It makes sort of sense that foh doesn't allow discussion of other vendors for the simple reason that it's run by one but I also don't understand why it's such a sensitive topic in a general sense either. In one of the threads (can't remember if it was about the new monte dantes, hdm lcdh or punch 48), people talked about a certain vendor that started a pre order but none would even mention the name, only "a certain famous vendor in Europe" or something was the only description and people were like "oh yes I think I know who you're taking about". The rule of not even mentioning names, why is that I may ask? When I brought it up on our Swedish cigar forum a few years ago people were (very) reluctant to answer. The only real answer I got was that people don't want to disclose their source in fear that the custom have a eye on the forum, or if they discover a larger amount of packages suddenly being shipped from a country and start to investigate it. I can understand that in part but with the amount of packages and letters coming into Sweden, and drugs being shipped nowadays it seems a little unreasonable and weird prioritizing. I doubt that it's the whole explanation of this secrecy.
I can sometimes understand it's easier to just have a clear rule and that's that. "no talking about other vendors" with no ifs or exceptions. Then people don't have to wonder what they can or can't say, worrying about breaking the rules, and so on. While I don't agree with the person that sent the email asking these questions, and how he asked them, he touched a subject I've been thinking about for a long time now. It seems like it's part of the cigar culture to not talk about, or even mentioning vendors and I don't understand the reason behind that.




Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

Quite simple, really. We don't talk about other vendors here because this forum is run by a vendor, and it is considered impolite to discuss other sources. Imagine if you run a blog/forum for your business and people were posting about their purchases from your competitors.

The way I see it, source chats about regional editions (outside of Asia Pacific) are acceptable, as it is stock not usually available to Rob. However, Rob always has last say on what can and can't be discussed. I just follow the guidelines set out by him.

[gweilgi]

I fully understand and support the rule about banning all mention or discussion of other vendors.  Even mentioning a name is likely to elicit reactions and may start discussion of exactly the unwanted sort.

That said, what about accessories and other items not sold by our Glorious Leader?  If I wanted to purchase a humidor or one more cutter to add to my collection, would it not be permissible to ask -- and receive -- advice and recommendations?

[El Presidente]

3 minutes ago, Nico said:

 The only real answer I got was that people don't want to disclose their source in fear that the custom have a eye on the forum, or if they discover a larger amount of packages suddenly being shipped from a country and start to investigate it. I can understand that in part but with the amount of packages and letters coming into Sweden, and drugs being shipped nowadays it seems a little unreasonable and weird prioritizing. I doubt that it's the whole explanation of this secrecy.
I can sometimes understand it's easier to just have a clear rule and that's that. "no talking about other vendors" with no ifs or exceptions. Then people don't have to wonder what they can or can't say, worrying about breaking the rules, and so on. While I don't agree with the person that sent the email asking these questions, and how he asked them, he touched a subject I've been thinking about for a long time now. It seems like it's part of the cigar culture to not talk about, or even mentioning vendors and I don't understand the reason behind that.

 

The October 2010 Chicago cigar massacre showcased what can happen when the stars align. 100,000 cigars seized over two weeks. 

Online operators went out of business. Refunds weren't made. It was ugly.  

Interestingly, one of the operators is mentioned in the comments posted on canaysis . That same operator was hit hard in the October massacre but refunded every single client and there were hundreds. 

So back to the point you raised. 

Seizures, Duties, Taxes are fears that buyers have (to different levels) in different parts of the world.  There is no upside to "touting" a retailer loud and proud. The more popular they become, the higher the risk (albeit maybe only incrementally). 

it is the reason why I wince when I see a "my first box from FOH" thread complete with package marking photo and member location. 

.....I know it was with the best of intentions...but no good can come of it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[El Presidente]

19 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

I fully understand and support the rule about banning all mention or discussion of other vendors.  Even mentioning a name is likely to elicit reactions and may start discussion of exactly the unwanted sort.

That said, what about accessories and other items not sold by our Glorious Leader?  If I wanted to purchase a humidor or one more cutter to add to my collection, would it not be permissible to ask -- and receive -- advice and recommendations?

No problems. Ask and get an answer via PM. 

and by the way....I often get asked where is the best place to buy cuban Cigars.  I always reply with 5 names + mine.