Please help? Replacing bundles into Slide Lid Boxes

[RickHendeson]

Guys, I have struggled for years with fitting the bundles of cigars -- esp. larger ring gauges -- back into Slide Lid Boxes after removing the bundle to inspect.  They get all discombobulated and then it's a nightmare.

I've been embarrassed to ask for help but this afternoon I spent 45 mins on a CoRo SLB and I have HAD IT.

I know there must be some science to it, or at least some tricks, because people like vendors remove the bundles all the time. 

Can anyone give me some tips to make my life easier please??

[Colt45]

If I have a problem, I just remove the ribbon and drop 'em back in - layer by layer.

No muss, no fuss.

[boilers183]

I just lift the bundle up by the ribbon, take a quick look, and set it right back in

[NSXCIGAR]

Hmm...I've never had this issue. Are you taking cigars out of the bundle once removed? IOW, are you undoing the bundle and then trying to re-bundle them? That's going to be very difficult as I believe the factories have special holders or a device to stack and bundle cigars. Without the device it's very difficult to re-bundle to factory specs. 

My next question is if you are doing this, why? I've never seen a need to inspect every cigar inside a bundle from top to bottom. Sometimes I'll pull the bundle out by the ribbon to check the feet or heads, but I don't think there's any reason to look at each cigar. When pulled straight up and out by the ribbon, the cigars should drop right back in if left alone in the bundle. I've never seen vendors do anything other than that either. 

I don't think I've ever found a cracked or damaged body of a cigar inside a bundle, and mold generally won't form inside the bundle--it's virtually always on the outside cigars of the bundle or the heads and/or feet. I guess if you feel the need to inspect, but it will not be a fun task to try and re-bundle to factory specs once the cigars are loose. And if not-rebundled in that way, they may not fit back into the cab--a problem that it appears you're experiencing.

[Ginseng]

I've never had this issue. I've lifted out the whole bundle, twirled it for a quick peek and replaced it without any difficulty.

What are you inspecting for and how are you doing it? Unless you take out a stick or the bundle is overdry, it should come out and go back easily.

Once you remove a stick, then bets are off. After that, the bundle doesn't ever come out because it will then be like trying to stuff pickles back into the jar. At that point, if you still like to remove mutiple cigars for inspection, just undo the ribbon and treat it as a loose box.

Wilkey 

[BuzzArd]

Smoke 'em. 

 

Problem solved. 

[RickHendeson]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Hmm...I've never had this issue. Are you taking cigars out of the bundle once removed? IOW, are you undoing the bundle and then trying to re-bundle them? That's going to be very difficult as I believe the factories have special holders or a device to stack and bundle cigars. Without the device it's very difficult to re-bundle to factory specs. 

My next question is if you are doing this, why? I've never seen a need to inspect every cigar inside a bundle from top to bottom. Sometimes I'll pull the bundle out by the ribbon to check the feet or heads, but I don't think there's any reason to look at each cigar. When pulled straight up and out by the ribbon, the cigars should drop right back in if left alone in the bundle. I've never seen vendors do anything other than that either. 

I don't think I've ever found a cracked or damaged body of a cigar inside a bundle, and mold generally won't form inside the bundle--it's virtually always on the outside cigars of the bundle or the heads and/or feet. I guess if you feel the need to inspect, but it will not be a fun task to try and re-bundle to factory specs once the cigars are loose. And if not-rebundled in that way, they may not fit back into the cab--a problem that it appears you're experiencing.

 

Typically no, I just look at the heads and feet, maybe pinch one or two to check fill, wetness, etc.  But it seems like that perfect circle they come in turns into a #%%& oval that doesn't fit back in the box if the breeze blows the wrong way . . .  Grrrrrrrrr

[RickHendeson]

Wilkey's pickle illustration does give me the idea that perhaps I should cinch the ribbon tightly before removing.  I've just been pulling them out by lifting the ribbon with slack in it.  Maybe taking up the slack is the trick

[NSXCIGAR]

2 minutes ago, RickHendeson said:

Typically no, I just look at the heads and feet, maybe pinch one or two to check fill, wetness, etc.  But it seems like that perfect circle they come in turns into a #%%& oval that doesn't fit back in the box if the breeze blows the wrong way . . .  Grrrrrrrrr

I'd set the bundle on a flat surface, feet down. Then gently tap each head of the cigar down one by one with your finger, firm but gently, until all of them are as far down as they can go so all the feet are flush with the flat surface. Then try and replace the bundle, moving it gently side to side as it drops in. 

[Ginseng]

9 minutes ago, RickHendeson said:

Wilkey's pickle illustration does give me the idea that perhaps I should cinch the ribbon tightly before removing.  I've just been pulling them out by lifting the ribbon with slack in it.  Maybe taking up the slack is the trick

Well sort of, yes. As long as you don't disassemble the bundle, snugging up loose ribbon is fine.

However, once you take one out, you disrupt the packing, specifically, the "hexagonal close pack" structure. Like a bee's honeycomb, it is geometrically regular. Once disrupted, the sticks will have the freedom to shift willy-nilly. I believe this is the cause of the problem and if so, snugging up the ribbon may help...or not, as the regular structure is broken.

Wilkey

[Ginseng]

Here are a bunch of wheels. Some are imperfect but they all show the basic hexagonal close pack structure, which in its most compact, perfect form, is stable.

(Note: by perfect form, I mean the same number of cigars on each edge of the bundle. 25 and 50 bundles are not "perfect" but are at least symmetric on two axes which is good enough for boxing).

Wilkey

[NSXCIGAR]

11 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

Well sort of, yes. As long as you don't disassemble the bundle, snugging up loose ribbon is fine.

However, once you take one out, you disrupt the packing, specifically, the "hexagonal close pack" structure. Like a bee's honeycomb, it is geometrically regular. Once disrupted, the sticks will have the freedom to shift willy-nilly. I believe this is the cause of the problem and if so, snugging up the ribbon may help...or not, as the regular structure is broken.

Wilkey

I've been occasionally able to remove a cigar near the center of the bundle and replace it without disrupting the structure. Probably only a few cigars that can be removed without doing it, and it must be done delicately. Kind of like a Jenga puzzle.

[LLC]

I just use the paper surrounding the bundle to lift it straight up, do a quick inspection and the straight down.


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[Ginseng]

Exactly right. Because in doing so, you create a unit cell of 7 cigars where the one in the center is a "hole." The surrounding 6 can hold that structure indefinitely as long as the bundle is kept tight. Loosening it up to create freedom of movement and it will collapse exactly as you observed.

[Ginseng]

It's really a fascinating demonstration of geometry in the context of crystal structures. In this case, two dimensional.

Who knew cigars could be so intriguing in so many ways.

Wilkey 

[RickHendeson]

59 minutes ago, Ginseng said:

It's really a fascinating demonstration of geometry in the context of crystal structures. In this case, two dimensional.

Who knew cigars could be so intriguing in so many ways.

Wilkey 

 

I agree because I did not observe that about the structure.  If I do have to rearrange them I will shoot for this lattice.  Previously I was trying to do some half-baked stack of short on top/bottom, thick the the middle (a la 898).  Symmetry is the key! 

[Ginseng]

I think that you were headed in the right direction, instinctively. Here is a pretty clear introduction to close packing in 1, 2, and 3 dimensions. Cigar packing is in two dimensions because the sticks can be represented in cross section as the packing discs due to their cylindrical symmetry. Of course figurados are a bit more complicated than parejos but it just means one end of the bundle is larger than the other end.

SLB and wheels are hexagonal close pack and dressed/semi-plain boxes are square pack. BUT!...if you take out a cigar from the top layer of the dressed box and give the box the slightest shake, the entire remaining top layer will shift one-half a cigar to the side creating two layers of a hexagonal close pack. Cool!

Blog post on close packing structures

Wilkey

Note: To clarify, I mean only a subset of figurados will exhibit this behavior, for example, the perfecto or presidente vitolas.

[Habana Mike]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I've been occasionally able to remove a cigar near the center of the bundle and replace it without disrupting the structure. Probably only a few cigars that can be removed without doing it, and it must be done delicately. Kind of like a Jenga puzzle.

This^^^  I almost always push a loose one from the center of the bundle out, just like Jenga!

Jenga, Tetris, oh the games we play with our cigars 

[irratebass]

Guys, I have struggled for years with fitting the bundles of cigars -- esp. larger ring gauges -- back into Slide Lid Boxes after removing the bundle to inspect.  They get all discombobulated and then it's a nightmare.

I've been embarrassed to ask for help but this afternoon I spent 45 mins on a CoRo SLB and I have HAD IT.

I know there must be some science to it, or at least some tricks, because people like vendors remove the bundles all the time. 

Can anyone give me some tips to make my life easier please??

I am glad you asked this question, my 1st bundled box was the RyJ Cazadores in the foil, It was 1st encountering this type of packaging and I was naive, so I opened the foil, took out the cigars, but then I couldn't get them back in the box, so I took them out of their bundle and just placed them inside the box....luckily I didn't care for these and ended up selling them, but I felt stupid that I couldn't get them back in properly.

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[dvickery]

I have done this with dozens of boxes and  successfully get them back in the box .

only time I could not get the bundle back in was a box of " pandoras "  .

derrek

[jfire]

I just use the paper surrounding the bundle to lift it straight up, do a quick inspection and the straight down.


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Grabbing the paper tight and lifting up ftw! Only way I do it as well.

[backbone]

When they first arrive, mine are usually swollen from the travel and are hard to put back in the box.

After they acclimate to my humidor they go in and out easier.

[planetary]

I've had this happen.   As @Colt45 says, the key is putting the cigars back in, one layer at a time, disallowing any voids to form.

[Cletus]

The answer lies in the archives:

http://www.friendsofhabanos.com/forum/topic/96879-hexagon-bundle/?do=findComment&comment=110873

 

[RickHendeson]

2 minutes ago, Cletus said:

The answer lies in the archives:

 

 

Thanks.  Apparently "hexagon" would have been a good search term?  And if I could build things.