Plastic/zip lock bags in wineador

[Pailong]

Hi all,

Just wondering, do any wineador owners store their boxes inside plastic/sealable/ziplock bags inside their wineadors?

I never used to but since now I want to plug in my wine cooler and turn it on (and due to the hot weather and wanting to keep my cigars at a lower temperature) I had issues with the humidity swinging up and down nonstop when the wineador is trying to cool down. I never thought about it before but after speaking to some people and reading online, I tried placing some boxes into plastic ziplock bags along with a boveda pack inside the bag too and also put a hygrometer in to keep an eye on things and found that the humidity fluctuations are only 2-3% whilst the temperature is nice and low (I've also put some boxes into a separate bag WITHOUT a boveda pack and the humidity also stays nice and even, I'm guessing because the cigar boxes themselves are already nicely humidified and that the ziplock bags are permeable).

Wondered if anyone swears by this method and what your thoughts are. I've also heard that some people are putting in boveda packs into the plastic ziplock bags with their boxes and found it over-humidifies their cigars, creating mold because the boveda's are allowed to breathe as much. Thoughts?

[Sigaar]

Just last night, I decided to try this with one of my wineadors.  The wineador will stay cold, but seems to run constantly, and strips too much humidity from the air (dropping into low 50s RH).  I'm using large Ziploc bags holding multiple boxes with some 65 Boveda packs.  I need more Boveda, and will have those in a day or so.  I'll report back soon with how things are going.

[shlomo]

I have stored many boxes in zipper bags for long periods of time (7-8 years) with no ill effects. They were in coolers or cabinet and I never used Bovedas in the bags.

[Puros Y Vino]

I find plain Ziploc bags to work well. Those finger bags though?  Different story.  I stopped using them as they seem to leave a waxy residue on the cigars if you store them long term.  I only use them when shipping cigars to others.  

[LordAnubis]

Agree with bundwallah above. A cigar box inside a ziploc is fine (i do with my wineador and it's been working for me for the 6 years I've had it. Always been on. No bovedas inside the bags). But storing inside a bag for long periods of time I wouldn't do that. No idea why and I have no science to prove it. I just wouldn't. My opinion.


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[BuzzArd]

I've kept dozens of boxes in Ziplock freezer bags with Boveda 60g packs for months and months.  Zero issue.  No reasn why you couldn't I guess, but the drop in temp may still play a part in rH anyway.  Pigfish may be able to shed light on humidity issues in this situation. 

[MahDooRow]

I've thought about placing boxes inside of large ziplock bags in the wineador, but haven't tried it yet.  I really don't have any fluctuating temperatures or humidity levels to mitigate.  My wineador sits inside of an air conditioned room, so the interior is very stable at 65F/62rH.

 

1 hour ago, bundwallah said:

I find plain Ziploc bags to work well. Those finger bags though?  Different story.  I stopped using them as they seem to leave a waxy residue on the cigars if you store them long term.  I only use them when shipping cigars to others.  

^^^ This is very good to know.  Thanks for the tip.  

[Pailong]

3 hours ago, shlomo said:

I have stored many boxes in zipper bags for long periods of time (7-8 years) with no ill effects. They were in coolers or cabinet and I never used Bovedas in the bags.

Good to hear this! Did the humidity of the cigar boxes inside the zipper bags regulate itself? Since you never put boveda inside the bags. If so, did it stay this way for all that time without the need for you to put boveda/add humidity inside the bags? I guess if the bags are inside a wineador or cabinet it will slowly absorb the humidity through the bag since it is still permeable.

I've experimented so far with 2 different bags - one bag has a boveda with the boxes and the other bag is just boxes and no boveda. I've been monitoring the humidity in each bag and I think having the boveda inside is too much - from my basic guesses I think there is not enough air for the boveda to regulate and it ends up over-humidifying the boxes inside the bag (which is why some people report getting mold) - of course, this is if the boveda are fully charge (or over charged).

I'm tempted to just remove all the boveda's from inside the bags and just store the boxes inside each bag without a boveda, seeing as my boxes are already well humidified.

[Pailong]

4 hours ago, Sigaar said:

Just last night, I decided to try this with one of my wineadors.  The wineador will stay cold, but seems to run constantly, and strips too much humidity from the air (dropping into low 50s RH).  I'm using large Ziploc bags holding multiple boxes with some 65 Boveda packs.  I need more Boveda, and will have those in a day or so.  I'll report back soon with how things are going.

I would try putting the boxes into the bags but don't include the boveda's and measure the humidity inside the bag that way, see what you get. I'm getting decent results so far.

[Pailong]

1 hour ago, MahDooRow said:

I've thought about placing boxes inside of large ziplock bags in the wineador, but haven't tried it yet.  I really don't have any fluctuating temperatures or humidity levels to mitigate.  My wineador sits inside of an air conditioned room, so the interior is very stable at 65F/62rH.

 

^^^ This is very good to know.  Thanks for the tip.  

I think the fact that your wineador sits inside an air conditioned room is why you have better stable humidity and temp in your wineador. If you think about it, I'm trying to replicate that but imagine the wineador is the air conditioned room and the ziplock bag is the wineador   - during the winter, my wineador is off and the temperature is stable at 16-18C and the humidity is rock solid, cause the wineador is sitting in a room at that naturally passive temperature.

[Pailong]

3 hours ago, bundwallah said:

I find plain Ziploc bags to work well. Those finger bags though?  Different story.  I stopped using them as they seem to leave a waxy residue on the cigars if you store them long term.  I only use them when shipping cigars to others.  

I don't know what finger bags are but I'm using ziplock/resealable bags for some individual boxes and also recently bought those gigantic plastic sealable bags with the hand pump to extract the air aka vacuum seal it, though I'm not pumping all the air out, just most of it like 90-95% mainly so I can fit it into my wineador - reason I bought these giant bags is so I can store 20 boxes in one bag, rather than have one ziplock bag for one cigar box i.e. 20 bags. Though I have read that some people use those vacuum machines for sealing food and completely vacuum-seal their boxes, not sure of the pros/cons of that though.

2 hours ago, LordAnubis said:

Agree with bundwallah above. A cigar box inside a ziploc is fine (i do with my wineador and it's been working for me for the 6 years I've had it. Always been on. No bovedas inside the bags). But storing inside a bag for long periods of time I wouldn't do that. No idea why and I have no science to prove it. I just wouldn't. My opinion.


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Good to hear that LordAnubis. I think I am leaning towards not putting boveda's inside the plastic bags either, just the boxes only - so far I'm reading perfect humidity levels for my liking (I'm guessing because the boxes themselves have already been humidified properly over the years). And do you mean storing single cigar sticks in a bag? I've never done that either.

[Sigaar]

On 6/22/2017 at 1:17 PM, Sigaar said:

Just last night, I decided to try this with one of my wineadors.  The wineador will stay cold, but seems to run constantly, and strips too much humidity from the air (dropping into low 50s RH).  I'm using large Ziploc bags holding multiple boxes with some 65 Boveda packs.  I need more Boveda, and will have those in a day or so.  I'll report back soon with how things are going.

Well, with 65% Boveda packs I'm getting lower RH% than I expected, running 59-60%RH in each extra-large Ziploc.  I have 4 Boveda in each Ziploc and about 6 boxes in each bag.  I'm assuming both bags are sealing tightly, not seeing any obvious holes, etc.

[Pailong]

On 6/26/2017 at 1:43 AM, Sigaar said:

Well, with 65% Boveda packs I'm getting lower RH% than I expected, running 59-60%RH in each extra-large Ziploc.  I have 4 Boveda in each Ziploc and about 6 boxes in each bag.  I'm assuming both bags are sealing tightly, not seeing any obvious holes, etc.

Hmm are you sure your boxes have been properly humidified at the desired % before putting them in the bag? Also, try doing smaller bags, not 6 boxes but 3. It's easier to manage smaller bags with less boxes.

I've got a big bag with several boxes in and NO boveda and it sits tightly at between 67-69% RH, cause the boxes were already humidified at the %.

I've also got bags with boxes humidified at 62%, again no boveda packs inside them. I do have one bag with a 62% boveda inside and the reading is around 65% right now, I'm guessing because the boxes were originally humidified at a higher RH before I put them in the bag with a 62%.

[backbone]

It takes a couple of days for the winedor to cool all the contents of a full unit.

After that it wont have to run/cycle as often as long as your ambient isn't crazy hot.

Then the humidity will not change as much, unless you open the unit often.

[Scotty]

I am using single bags for each box/cab with 65rh bovedas, seems to work well so far. 

 

Am maintaining 64/65/66 RH is each bag, being anal I have a cheap but calibrated hygrometer https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inkbird-Hygrometer-Thermometer-Temperature-Humidity/dp/B00UL055FO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1500318532&sr=8-3&keywords=digital+hygrometer   in each bag to be on the safe side.  I also have one of the same good quality Caliber Hygrometers just sat naked in the wineador, same type I use in my Humidors.  Temp stays at 64/65 so unless someone tells me otherwise, that seems pretty decent. 

 

Am I right in thinking there is a suggestion that boveda packs, even though they are regulating the rh within each bag, may in fact over humidify the cigars within the boxes then?  Would the hygrometer stay at 65 if that was the case I wonder?

[PapaDisco]

On 6/22/2017 at 2:38 PM, Pailong said:

Good to hear this! Did the humidity of the cigar boxes inside the zipper bags regulate itself? Since you never put boveda inside the bags. If so, did it stay this way for all that time without the need for you to put boveda/add humidity inside the bags? I guess if the bags are inside a wineador or cabinet it will slowly absorb the humidity through the bag since it is still permeable.

I've experimented so far with 2 different bags - one bag has a boveda with the boxes and the other bag is just boxes and no boveda. I've been monitoring the humidity in each bag and I think having the boveda inside is too much - from my basic guesses I think there is not enough air for the boveda to regulate and it ends up over-humidifying the boxes inside the bag (which is why some people report getting mold) - of course, this is if the boveda are fully charge (or over charged).

I'm tempted to just remove all the boveda's from inside the bags and just store the boxes inside each bag without a boveda, seeing as my boxes are already well humidified.

Mold/Bag/Boveda Issues:  I would speculate that any mold issues with ziplocks and Bovedas would be from too much air, not too little, and the mold would (I guess) be caused from all that air changing temperature (and therefore rH) faster than the Boveda can keep up.  If the temperature change is a decrease, then you get tiny drops of liquid water and a mold bloom.

I too have been doing LT storage with ziplocks and Bovedas inside watertight lockers.  No temperature control other than the stable temperature environment of my cellar (which is too humid in the winter so it gets de-humified).  So far it's worked great with 65%rH Bovedas.  Ziplocks are permeable (the regular ones, don't know about the freezer version) and so what's inside the bag will very, very slowly acclimate to what's outside the bag.  I have one locker that has the Bovedas inside the ziplocks, and another with them outside. Both work the same as far as I can tell.

I would speculate that if you wanted the simplest wineador of all, and you didn't mind buying a block of Bovedas once a year, that all you'd have to do is take a stock wine cooler, don't plug up the drain, and store all your boxes inside of ziplocks with a Boveda in each.  Don't install any humidification in the wineador at all.  I'm intending to try this in my Saigon office this summer.  One of our perpetual challenges with wine coolers is the wave of air, heat and humidity, that accompany each door opening.  With boxes in ziplocks and an open drain hole this becomes a 'nothing burger' (  to be politically current . . . ).  Baggie wrapped cigar boxes in your wineador won't look pretty, but it will be a functional setup.

Anyway, this is just me guessing at this point.  I'm going to go with a Boveda in each bag, but I agree with Lord A that it's not really necessary if you have stable humidity outside of the bag.

[BellevilleMXZ]

Just curious....why do you guys put the boxes in ziplocks? I guess the reason I wonder , is how can you control the RH in all the separate bags?

[shlomo]

1 hour ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

Just curious....why do you guys put the boxes in ziplocks? I guess the reason I wonder , is how can you control the RH in all the separate bags?

Slow aging, minimize air exchange and mostly...in case of bugs.

 

Bags are permeable and RH in the humi gets in or out depending. Just slower.

[PigFish]

No, I have not. I have wine cooler humidors that actually work! -LOL

-Piggy

[PigFish]

How humidor settings ultimately reflect on cigar storage is a factor that I study. Different humidor designs actually work differently and I like to adjust logic to move the conditions found in a box toward the actual set points. This is a log from June 2017 and it reflects not only some logic adjustments but air exchanges and prolonged door open periods.

Cheers! -Piggy

[busdriver]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 7:43 PM, Sigaar said:

Well, with 65% Boveda packs I'm getting lower RH% than I expected, running 59-60%RH in each extra-large Ziploc.  I have 4 Boveda in each Ziploc and about 6 boxes in each bag.  I'm assuming both bags are sealing tightly, not seeing any obvious holes, etc.

What size of bags are you using? 

[Pailong]

For me, it's about keeping the boxes in a self-contained stable environment that will not get affected by the wineador cooling tempeartures (or affected at a very, very slow pace) - otherwise the humidity just goes up and down nonstop when I keep the wine cooler switched on to my desired temperature of 16C. It's all about trying to maintain a stable, consistent environment.

In an ideal world, my actual room would be air conditioned to 16C and then I wouldn't have to switch my wine cooler on, then I wouldn't even keep my boxes in ziplock bags. So imagine my wine cooler is the air conditioned room and each individual ziplock bag is a miniature humidor with a cigar box inside.

I would recommend humidifying the cigar box to your desired RH before putting it inside a ziplock bag in the wineador. I put all my boxes for about 2 weeks into my desktop humidors to get them acclimated to my desired RH for that box (some boxes I'm aging at 62%, others at 69%), I should probably leave it longer but oh well. I then put the boxes into ziplocks without boveda. Remember that your cigar box would have absorbed a lot of the humidity before going into the bag and therefore should still carry quite a bit of humidity once stored inside the ziplock - this is what a lot of people do before they vacuum seal their boxes too (which I'm not doing because I still want a bit of air in the bag to age it slowly). I do have a few ziplock bags with cigar boxes AND boveda inside but I will probably remove the boveda from the bag soon as I don't think it's needed inside the bag.

And smoke your sticks! I just smoked one of my Hoyo de Monterrey Grand Epicure EL 2013 after having stored it at 62% in my wine cooler for years WITHOUT a ziplock bag and it's smoking beautifully. It's the only way to tell if your sticks are aging the way you want them.

[Fugu]

18 hours ago, shlomo said:

19 hours ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

Just curious....why do you guys put the boxes in ziplocks? I guess the reason I wonder , is how can you control the RH in all the separate bags?

 

Bags are permeable and RH in the humi gets in or out depending. Just slower.

This is not strictly correct, sorry Shlo. The ziplocs (or other polypropylene bags) are pretty impermeable for gaseous water. At least the time constants are much, much larger (i.e. slower change) than the temporal course of the swings in the wine cooler we are talking about. So, for practical reasons, we can justly approximate impermeability.

And - as to the question: You simply can't control rH within the bag, in particular when there are considerable temp.-swings. You give that out of hand once sealed. Don't forget, we are talking about relative H, not absolute! While absolute humidity will stay constant, relativeH will swing in tune with the temp swings. It will only be dampened by the cigars contained, which act as a buffer.

I am with Piggy here: Either use a humidor that works, or do it without. A sealed box that is undergoing permanent temperature changes of considerable delta, is a bad idea. You may do so (same issue with jars) but need to make sure temperature is being held constant (as much as possible).

[shlomo]

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

This is not strictly correct, sorry Shlo. The ziplocs (or other polypropylene bags) are pretty impermeable for gaseous water. At least the time constants are much, much larger (i.e. slower change) than the temporal course of the swings in the wine cooler we are talking about. So, for practical reasons, we can justly approximate impermeability.

And - as to the question: You simply can't control rH within the bag, in particular when there are considerable temp.-swings. You give that out of hand once sealed. Don't forget, we are talking about relative H, not absolute! While absolute humidity will stay constant, relativeH will swing in tune with the temp swings. It will only be dampened by the cigars contained, which act as a buffer.

I am with Piggy here: Either use a humidor that works, or do it without. A sealed box that is undergoing permanent temperature changes of considerable delta, is a bad idea. You may do so (same issue with jars) but need to make sure temperature is being held constant (as much as possible).

Maybe my bags are of lesser quality. Before I started using them, I stuck a hygro in a couple and played with the humidity in various coolers. numbers in bags were much slower to change, but change they did.

That was 8 or 9 years ago. I could try it again this week and post results. 

[PigFish]

I am trying to remember if it is posted here, but our brother Wilkey @Ginseng is quite knowledgeable on poly bags and did a little report/research on them regarding this very topic. He is a detailed and knowledgable individual and I have a lot of faith in his work (opinion).

If I can find it I will post a link.

Cheers! -Piggy