Min Ron Nee - Cigar Blends, Storage and other questions

[Nino]

The missing parts explained ...
 

I had a long telephone conversation with MRN an hour ago and he asked me to clarify here on some of his comments from that "interview" for Robert for those interested in a more detailed explanations.

 

 

PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE IS INFORMAL

 

 

 

Regarding the "Blend Change" that seemed to start from 2003 onwards :

The last batch of Criollo tobacco was planted in 2000. From 2001 onwards, Tabacuba used totally new strains of tobacco which are genetically engineered.  The Criollo strain was introduced in the 1940’s. Fermentation methods are slowly improved throughout the years with trial and errors. 

 

For a completely new tobacco strain, naturally, they need to use different fermentation methods. Of course it will take years to perfect the new methods for fermentation. Right now, I think the Cubans have managed to replicate 70 to 80% of the pre-2003 marca/vitola taste profiles.  

 

Adding to the difficulty, slightly different strains of tobacco are planted every year. People should understand how difficult the task is. Blaming is easy. Try doing this by yourself if you were running Tabacuba.

 

 

 

Regarding the 72% RH comment :

Smoke is actually an aerosol. Burning of tobacco causes pyrolysis which results in water to evaporate. The distilled water in air immediately condenses and form tiny water droplets with hyper-saturated “substances” caused by pyrolysis. These substances may be soluble in water, or non-soluble which are forced into water by the pyrolysis process, which is in actuality a tiny explosion process. 

Theoretically, more moisture content means more aerosols and more room to carry these “substances”. Practically, too much moisture hinders optimal combustion. By trial and errors, everyone I know of agrees that 72% RH is the optimal. 

 

RH is independent of temperature. This is relative humidity, not absolute humidity. Secondary school basic physics. 

 

My inventory is built by an engineer. 

 

For people who do not have a huge stock, try these: “Boveda 72% 2-Way Humidity Control”. Please note that that these solutions do not state the temperature required. Boveda engineers do understand what RH is. The Boveda solution comes in a lot of different humidity, from 60% to 84% RH.

 

Regarding Oxygen and Fermentation : 

I have noted one member here states that oxygen has nothing to do with fermentation. Every book about tobacco manufacturing I have read says that fermentation of tobacco requires and consumes oxygen. In short, no oxygen, no fermentation. I would like to see any scientific papers saying otherwise. A Nobel Prize is waiting for you. If the member cannot produce any scientific evidence. Just an “In my own opinion” thing, please do not waste people’s time. 

 

 

 

[Fugu]

Thanks for the addition, and for taking the time to get back to him, Nino.

While I am not in agreement with everything of this, still a good addition. But just one aspect:

1 hour ago, nino said:

RH is independent of temperature. This is relative humidity, not absolute humidity. Secondary school basic physics.

I guess he meant to say the action of rH on tobacco is independent of temperature (rH is actually a function of aH, temperature and pressure). But this plain physical state of moisture, rH and aH, within an atmosphere is undisputed and not matter of debate. The point is the relationship between tobacco moisture and rH in response to storage temperature. That equilibrium isn't fix.

Cheers,

Gooey

[PigFish]

... and down the rabbit hole we go! -LOL

I wrote a great deal here, then simply deleted it. I suppose I hang on details. There is no point in it, forcing proxy arguments. So I won't.

As some of you know, I also study 'tobacco.' 

For your enjoyment I submit: Pyrolysis and Tobacco.pdf  (I believe from RJ Reynolds...)

If you are too lazy to read the attachment, this is an excerpt from the 1st paragraph...

Pyrolysis is not smoking . The two procedures do not provide even approximately similar results . Pyrolysis studies do yield useful information, when kept in context ; however, parallels between results of smoke studies and pyrolysis experiments are fortuitous and should not be expected . This has been suggested by many others (1,10,64,122) .

My problem with 'expert analysis' is that it is often buttressed with scientific terms, yet devoid of any 'scientific proof.' I therefore research myself and seek my own data, my own proof. After seeking the proof myself, and upon finding significant 'holes' in arguments, I begin to have doubts. 

Cigar collectors are not experts at everything! On the flip-side, humidor makers may not be expert at anything... (beat you to it... -LOL) I suggest then, you read everything and carefully analyze what you chose to believe. DON'T BLINDLY FOLLOW ANYONE!!! Look for proof in arguments. It is not unreasonable to ask people to prove claims. This does not mean that they have to. They may not care if you believe them or not. Arrogant as it may appear, I often take this position myself. Yet persuasive arguments, contain some degree of proof. The PDF (above) is an example of how I make a statement. This does not make it right, make me right, it just exemplfies and in some ways rationalizes my position.

The only person you can trust here is you (rhetorically speaking). Follow your own tastes and decide for yourself. Be a leader, not a follower!

If you decide to wrap your cigars in foil, then refrigerate them to 50F and you get mold, don't say that someone did not warn you against it...

-Piggy

[Philc2001]

6 hours ago, 99call said:

HHmmm  I think this whole, "this is just one guys opinion" malarky is a bit short sighted. 

Alan Turing worked out mathematical equations to explain patterns seen within nature i.e Zebra stripes. Now, I may disagree with him (which I don't) but critically I think my opinion is of far less value than his, As he had spent a life time working out this stuff, and I have a layman's perspective. 

Sure, what Min Ron Nee has formulated is part research, and part a communication of what he enjoys and found to be good for himself, (which is the subjective part), but why oh why, is it so hard for people to openly just give someone a bit of respect for what they've achieved? 

The idea that there can be recognised authorities on a subject, that most feel to be very personal and subjective, I think really makes some peoples piss boil. but why?

I'm sure the author couldn't care less, if people disagree with him, but to call it a book of pretty pictures, and to be so reductive about his knowledge actually only succeeds in quantifying our knowledge.  I.e if I say, "Michael Jordan knows nothing about basketball", it just means I know even less. 

I read much of MRNs book, and was quite impressed with it, especially the high quality of the photos and attention to detail. However, we are effectively discussing his/our hobby. I don't think any of us knows how he arrived at his methods, or how scientific his methods are. It seems to me from reading what he said that he was offering his opinion about how he prefers to care for his cigars. I'm not sure how you can distill his response as anything beyond anecdotal.

Vaunted as MRN may be as a collector, a hobbyist, he like all of us has his opinion. There is nothing wrong with stating that, and I don't see anything short sighted about it. 

That's just my opinion... of course 

[99call]

2 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

I read much of MRNs book, and was quite impressed with it, especially the high quality of the photos and attention to detail. However, we are effectively discussing his/our hobby. I don't think any of us knows how he arrived at his methods, or how scientific his methods are. It seems to me from reading what he said that he was offering his opinion about how he prefers to care for his cigars. I'm not sure how you can distill his response as anything beyond anecdotal.

Vaunted as MRN may be as a collector, a hobbyist, he like all of us has his opinion. There is nothing wrong with stating that, and I don't see anything short sighted about it. 

That's just my opinion... of course 

My frustration was based on the fact I think we have two options within out collective passion.

1, Bicker amongst ourselves, in some sort of odd ego based game of who can counter claim, or discredit the next person

or

2, Accept, all the good stuff one another have to offer and build a rich resource for old heads and newbies alike.  

I realise you rarely get progress without ruffling each others feathers and testing theories/practices etc. I just find It bloody depressing, that in discussing someone, who's developed such a wonderful resource for us all, that there seems to be such negativity, and nitpicking.

I do also believe that everyones opinions are valid, I guess I was just suggesting that in order for someone to be right, it doesn't necessarily follow that someone else is wrong.

I think in a round about way, we're on the same hymn sheet

 

 

[Colt45]

engaging / stooping = feeding = ≤

[airtrade]

Time to try out a few sticks at 72RH.

 

[99call]

34 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

engaging / stooping = feeding = ≤

pithiness - clarity = befuddlement

[JohnS]

I just wanted to take this opportunity to thank many of you for your contributions to this thread in regards to some interesting points, especially to those of you of whom many of our members on FriendsofHabanos esteem in regards to your explicit knowledge.

It's my hope that this thread serves as reference for cigar enthusiasts well into the future.

[El Presidente]

We wont tolerate dickheads. 

Discuss, argue with respect, enlighten or go elsewhere. 

[archosaur]

Excellent discussion 

MRN obviously has great passion for the topic, and I respect that.  I would venture to guess that he comes across much different in person than on a computer screen.

I could not be a bigger proponent of science, but to me the enjoyment of cigars seems mostly incompatible with it. 

Store and smoke cigars how you like them

[fabes]

I don’t own the MRN book, but I do own a book of the same caliber and magnitude on the topic of vinyl records specifically relating to funk, soul, jazz, afro, latin, etc. Much like the MRN book it is targeted toward a very niche subset of people and is highly regarded. In many ways it’s a fantastic reference piece with much knowledge to be gleaned, in other ways it’s a fantastic picture book about a hobby. I find this book and MRN’s book the same in those regards. Information and pictures well put together and valuable to those that desire it. 

An important takeaway is that your experience is your own. Whether vinyl records or cigars there is a journey and experience that you gather along the way and decide how to process. There are facts and there are opinions and advocates of both. Listen, learn, test theories, make your path your own, be respectful... The greatest mistake would be to copy the journey of someone at the expense of having your own. 

Thanks for sharing @JohnS and @nino I found it particularly fun that MRN in his further explanations clearly states that there are facts and there are “in my opinions”. More power to those that can distinguish between the two!

[Lotusguy]

HHmmm  I think this whole, "this is just one guys opinion" malarky is a bit short sighted. 
Alan Turing worked out mathematical equations to explain patterns seen within nature i.e Zebra stripes. Now, I may disagree with him (which I don't) but critically I think my opinion is of far less value than his, As he had spent a life time working out this stuff, and I have a layman's perspective. 
Sure, what Min Ron Nee has formulated is part research, and part a communication of what he enjoys and found to be good for himself, (which is the subjective part), but why oh why, is it so hard for people to openly just give someone a bit of respect for what they've achieved? 
The idea that there can be recognised authorities on a subject, that most feel to be very personal and subjective, I think really makes some peoples piss boil. but why?
I'm sure the author couldn't care less, if people disagree with him, but to call it a book of pretty pictures, and to be so reductive about his knowledge actually only succeeds in quantifying our knowledge.  I.e if I say, "Michael Jordan knows nothing about basketball", it just means I know even less. 
 

Where is the scientific research? By nature, every cigar is unique. Everyone's taste is unique. The environment when smoked varies et cetera.

I respect the man - but that doesn't mean I have to blindly agree with him. I have my own experiences - why are mine less valuable? Because I don't have a budget of millions to spend on cigars and have a book made?

[luv2fly]

I see that some posts have been moderated.  I agree with that.  I personally feel very happy to have his book.  It is IMHO a work of art.  It is a source of conversation in my house for all my new cigar friends.  Agree or not with the man, there is no room here to disagree in unprofessional manner. I am glad to see this thread has for the most part been civilized.  Guys, lets keep it going in a civil manner and I look forward to the contibutions.

 

[shaffer22]

Let’s not lose sight of the point behind all this discussion: smoking cigars brings us enjoyment. 

If the “demands” of the hobby—I.e. anxiety about storage, cutting, lighting, tasting, aging, collecting, box codes, etc.—devour your simple pleasure of smoking a cigar, then you’ve gone too far. 

A while ago, I made the decision not to stress about these things and to simply enjoy my cigars. I make changes when I don’t enjoy something. I have yet to experience issues with that approach.

That’s not to look down on anyone who enjoys the research, data, monitoring, etc. aspect of cigar collecting. Those things add to some people’s enjoyment. And that’s fantastic. 

We just all do well to remember what it’s really all about. 

[El Presidente]

 

1 hour ago, Lotusguy said:

Where is the scientific research? By nature, every cigar is unique. Everyone's taste is unique. The environment when smoked varies et cetera.

I respect the man - but that doesn't mean I have to blindly agree with him. I have my own experiences - why are mine less valuable? Because I don't have a budget of millions to spend on cigars and have a book made?

I disagree with many people on many things. They disagree with me.  My opinions are based upon what I have seen and experienced. Others have seen and experienced the same things and disagree.  

That is what makes intelligent discussion such a glorious thing. 

As for your confusing last line. 

The world is full of people who are "going to do this" or "going to do that".   There is a heightened respect to those who actually "do it". 

No need for fawning or the avoidance of pertinent questions.  Illumination of a concept through exploration  is what makes discussion such a beautiful thing. 

 

[PigFish]

... it is those that take the risk to opine that make this place worth reading. While I don't agree with all, and even think some are daffy, as I am sure some do me, content is not generated by hitting the 'like' button.

Content gets you known, liked and even disliked. I will take it as it comes!

-Piggy

 

[Santiago]

Has he done any interviews or the like in his native language?  That could help clarify some of his statements.

[zeedubbya]

It is a crying shame "agree to disagree" is dead. It is a huge problem, huge. I must be getting old; cannot comprehend someone getting bent out of shape over the opinions of others on a forum where they hardly know each other. Kudos to Rob and Ray above for drawing some sense into this discussion and verbalizing what I wanted to say better than I could.

As a side note I just want to say@nino is a true legend and an asset to us all here. Lots of curious people wondering about a somewhat cryptic interview and Nino just makes a call and gets some clarification. Thank you for this Nino. Your legendary status was elevated even more today sir.




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[Fugu]

Very reasonable, perhaps even wise, last two postings Pres and Piggy, which I can only wholeheartedly agree with. If nobody would stick his/her bloody egghead out, this would be a very boring forum! Nobody here is obliged to "believe" (even not to read, if he doesn't give a sh*t), but everybody is encouraged to contribute.

And I'd like to add, I personally still draw a fine line between simple opinion (or even opinionated view) and educated opinion based on a wider personal experience. There is a difference, at least to me.

That being said - I fail to see the drama that others seem to see in this thread (apart from some "redacted" posts).

 

[Smallclub]

3 hours ago, luv2fly said:

I see that some posts have been moderated.

RIP Sarkozy

[Lotusguy]

 
I disagree with many people on many things. They disagree with me.  My opinions are based upon what I have seen and experienced. Others have seen and experienced the same things and disagree.  
That is what makes intelligent discussion such a glorious thing. 
As for your confusing last line. 
The world is full of people who are "going to do this" or "going to do that".   There is a heightened respect to those who actually "do it". 
No need for fawning or the avoidance of pertinent questions.  Illumination of a concept through exploration  is what makes discussion such a beautiful thing. 
 

Indeed. We don't all have to agree on everything and there is no need to put someone down because they disagree. I think my last sentence was confusing because I was referring to someone's opinion being worth less on account of having a smaller budget from the previous sentence - I guess I shouldn't type on my phone.

In any case - thanks to Nino for reaching out to his friend and clarifying some items. Kudos to MRN for going through the work involved in creating one (or soon to be several) books and for doing all his experiments. I am doing my own experiments with my own conclusions. I believe both of us enjoy our cigars and that's what this hobby is all about

[Nino]

7 hours ago, shaffer22 said:

Let’s not lose sight of the point behind all this discussion: smoking cigars brings us enjoyment. 

If the “demands” of the hobby—I.e. anxiety about storage, cutting, lighting, tasting, aging, collecting, box codes, etc.—devour your simple pleasure of smoking a cigar, then you’ve gone too far. 

A while ago, I made the decision not to stress about these things and to simply enjoy my cigars. I make changes when I don’t enjoy something. I have yet to experience issues with that approach.

That’s not to look down on anyone who enjoys the research, data, monitoring, etc. aspect of cigar collecting. Those things add to some people’s enjoyment. And that’s fantastic. 

We just all do well to remember what it’s really all about. 

Well said and I could not agree more that the primary objective of smoking cigars is enjoyment.

Having smoked many cigars with MRN over meals, drinks and conversations I dare to affirm that this is his opinion as well.

Personally, I made the decision to enjoy cigars 50 years ago when, at the age of 14 in Spain, I returned weak & pale from using the bathroom after smoking my first cigar ... :-)

 

5 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

As a side note I just want to say@nino is a true legend and an asset to us all here. Lots of curious people wondering about a somewhat cryptic interview and Nino just makes a call and gets some clarification. Thank you for this Nino. Your legendary status was elevated even more today sir.
 

Thank you for the kind words, I like the KISS principle and I thought it would serve well here to clarifiy and/or expand on comments.

I must thank MRN for his time, his openness and for always being approachable and willing to share his vast knowledge.
Do ze
多謝

[mk05]

Hello again FOH, nice to be back after all the years. I read the questions and the answers, but not the rest of the thread. All I can say is that it appears that the questions weren't intellectually stimulating enough to get the good Doctor to opine fully. 

Thanks @nino for clarifying on the tobacco part, which is what I had assumed. I have so many specific follow up questions now...you know me. LOL

[99call]

9 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

but that doesn't mean I have to blindly agree with him. I have my own experiences - why are mine less valuable? Because I don't have a budget of millions to spend on cigars and have a book made?

I like red wine, and I have my "own experiences" with red wine. That said, I value Ken Gargetts thoughts on wine to hold more weight than mine. I value his opinion more than mine, because he has been exposed to a variety/quality of wine, and research that I probably haven't got time left in my life to form. 

That said, if I happened to like drinking hot Retsina out of a plastic cup, I'm not going to let Ken, tell me that its crap, because maybe it's just a personal choice that I like. 

Would you place more value in your knowledge of cigars than a newbie thats just smoked a single Monte 4?  Hmmm I think you would. So using that scale, I think it's pretty straight forward how people begin to define the value in peoples experience. Thats not to suggest 'you' should consider Min Ron Nee's opinion to be more valuable than your own, you shouldn't, and that obviously your choice. 

The point in my comment wasn't to suggest the book cant be criticised, more to say, instead of people taking a negative spin on it. Why don't those who are inspired by their own thoughts on cigars, offer them up in a positive way, instead of doing it in the form of denigrating the work of others?

It's a bit like walking through a gallery of Jackson Pollocks works with someone constantly saying "I could do that". Well, maybe they could?, but until they do, Jackson Pollack's works are worth more to me, than a verbal voucher from someone extolling their own ability