Starting a Wine Collection


Lant63

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So, in short, I would like to start laying down some wine.  I figured this would be the best place to ask questions because the wine guys here seems very knowledgeable.  

I am located in the US. I do not know if that matters or not.  

Unfortunately, I know very little about wine in general other than that I like smokey/tobacco reds and citrus crisp whites that aren't sweet. 

My plan is to start purchasing a case of wine every month, in the hope that I could have a nice collection in a decade or even longer.  I plan on drinking some of the bottles over the years, but I hope that I will have at least a couple bottles of each case left at the 10 year mark, and a single bottle at the 20. 

  • Is this even possible in the 20-30 USD range to have these wines develop over a decade or longer? Or, am I looking at these being more of "drink now" wines rather aging wines? If there are vineyards in this price range I should concentrate on please feel free to suggest some.  
  • Should I concentrate on certain regions for aging over others, or more specifically should I avoid certain  regions more so.  
  • Are there wines that do not age well?
  • Should I try to find a wine shop, or am I better off shopping online?
  • Are there any online resources that I should subscribe to, either reviews, magazines, or forums that I should pay attention to?  

If you've read thus far, thank you. I am excited to start this adventure, and I am  trying to decide what Penfolds I need to put away.  I'm already thinking of expanding my budget to put a case of 2015 bin 389 away.  

Thanks again.

Cheers.  

 

 

 

 

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My first thought is that you might benefit from spending some time tasting wines and find out what you lean toward. There's not much point in buying and stashing away wines you may not enjoy down the line. As for smokey / meaty, my first thought is Rioja Reservas. Lately I've been drinking Boutari Naoussa, a Greek wine that fits the bill as well.

P.S. Get to know the wine buyers at your locals - I've found that they typically enjoy talking about wine and helping out. Wine is a huge world.....

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12 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

My first thought is that you might benefit from spending some time tasting wines and find out what you lean toward. There's not much point in buying and stashing away wines you may not enjoy down the line. As for smokey / meaty, my first thought is Rioja Reservas. Lately I've been drinking Boutari Naoussa, a Greek wine that fits the bill as well.

Thanks for the advice!

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A few others to consider (staying with things on the smokier side, smoky of course relative) :

Syrah and mourvedre based reds from France. Portuguese reds from the Bairrada zone. Some of the reds from Sicily and Sardegna, some sangiovese from the rest of Italy.

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I'll add my usual disclaimer that I know enough about this subject to know how little I know. A few thoughts.

In terms of your questions:

-$20-30 is certainly enough to find wines that will benefit from age. 10-20 years is going to be very much a function of your storage conditions (as you get near into the 10-20 year range you either need to closely monitor your wines progress (ie, continued sampling, the most enjoyable/educating method) or you have to be very certain that your conditions are close to ideal. And also your taste, personal taste varies and evolves on how young/old you like your wines. A am in a "newer" wine phase right now having a bunch of 2007 Napa stuff that is on point for me...a year ago I was drinking tons of older wines.

- Regions are highly subjective. Nearly every region will have wines that benefit from distance and wines that are meant to be drank nearly right away. They serve different purposes.

-Generally speaking, red wines (and more tannic reds) benefit more from age. Again, no hard rule as many white wines can benfit from some age. I have some 10 year old California Chardonnay (a wine most wouldn't associate with longer aging) that have improved more than a bit since I first got them. Champagnes, sweet wines, some of these can go way long distances.

-I'd find a local shop, or a few. Buying single bottles and getting to know the people there will accelerate your learning curve quite a bit. Sampling is the best way to learn.

-The web is an endless resource for learning. Honestly just google stuff.

-For smokey wines, the wines that come to mind for me are the Rhone varietals (Syrah, Grenache, Mourvedre). You can also find Syrah/Shiraz and Grenache/Garnacha found in non-Rhone varietals (as well as occasionally Mourvedre). Mablecs are also known to have these characteristics, more leather and tobacco versus smoke. Nebbiolo-based wines as well can have some of this. Again, my tobacco may be your earth and your spice may be my tannin. Drink as much wine as possible and preferably next to each other if you have people over open a few bottles and try them all. These wines age very well but can be at their best well inside of 20 years.

A few personal thoughts:

-I'd go slow. Wine tastes evolve a lot. It's more about the journey than the destination as the cliché goes.

-Buy a lot of singles. I think buying cases of wine at the beginning is more of a risk than w cigars.

-If I were going to start to lay down cases of wine for long periods of time (10-20 years) without much knowledge of what exactly I liked, I likely would slowly buy "benchmark" type of wines that tend to benefit most from age, everybody for the most part likes, and appreciate in value so I can sell them later if need me. As an example, in the cigar world I tend to sock away things like Sir Winstons. I am not sure what my cigar tastes will be in 20 years but I know I'll never turn my nose at an old Sir Winston. In the wine world, in my opinion, this would be first and foremost Bordeaux varietals (a wine made with some combo of Cabernet, Merlot, Cab Franc, Petit Verdot, Malbec), in terms of Bordeaux itself 2015 was a banner year...so not a bad place to start. But off the top of my head Italian Sangiovese-based wines (eg, Brunello), or Nebbiolo-based wines (eg, Barolos or Barbarescos) also might do it for you. Personally, I'd also lay down some Valpolicellas from the Veneto region but they have a very specific flavor that people either like or don't. *I haven't included much about Pinot Noir/red burgundy as it doesn't match your flavor preference in my opinion.

-Drink as much different wine as possible. It's the best and most fun way to learn. I may have said that already.

Cheers!

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25 minutes ago, El Hoze said:

I'll add my usual disclaimer that I know enough about this subject to know how little I know. A few thoughts.

In terms of your questions:

-$20-30 is certainly enough to find wines that will benefit from age. 10-20 years is going to be very much a function of your storage conditions (as you get near into the 10-20 year range you either need to closely monitor your wines progress (ie, continued sampling, the most enjoyable/educating method) or you have to be very certain that your conditions are close to ideal. And also your taste, personal taste varies and evolves on how young/old you like your wines. A am in a "newer" wine phase right now having a bunch of 2007 Napa stuff that is on point for me...a year ago I was drinking tons of older wines.

- Regions are highly subjective. Nearly every region will have wines that benefit from distance and wines that are meant to be drank nearly right away. They serve different purposes.

-Generally speaking, red wines (and more tannic reds) benefit more from age. Again, no hard rule as many white wines can benfit from some age. I have some 10 year old California Chardonnay (a wine most wouldn't associate with longer aging) that have improved more than a bit since I first got them. Champagnes, sweet wines, some of these can go way long distances.

-I'd find a local shop, or a few. Buying single bottles and getting to know the people there will accelerate your learning curve quite a bit. Sampling is the best way to learn.

-The web is an endless resource for learning. Honestly just google stuff.

-For smokey wines, the wines that come to mind for me are the Rhone varietals (Syrah, Grenache, Mourvedre). You can also find Syrah/Shiraz and Grenache/Garnacha found in non-Rhone varietals (as well as occasionally Mourvedre). Mablecs are also known to have these characteristics, more leather and tobacco versus smoke. Nebbiolo-based wines as well can have some of this. Again, my tobacco may be your earth and your spice may be my tannin. Drink as much wine as possible and preferably next to each other if you have people over open a few bottles and try them all. These wines age very well but can be at their best well inside of 20 years.

A few personal thoughts:

-I'd go slow. Wine tastes evolve a lot. It's more about the journey than the destination as the cliché goes.

-Buy a lot of singles. I think buying cases of wine at the beginning is more of a risk than w cigars.

-If I were going to start to lay down cases of wine for long periods of time (10-20 years) without much knowledge of what exactly I liked, I likely would slowly buy "benchmark" type of wines that tend to benefit most from age, everybody for the most part likes, and appreciate in value so I can sell them later if need me. As an example, in the cigar world I tend to sock away things like Sir Winstons. I am not sure what my cigar tastes will be in 20 years but I know I'll never turn my nose at an old Sir Winston. In the wine world, in my opinion, this would be first and foremost Bordeaux varietals (a wine made with some combo of Cabernet, Merlot, Cab Franc, Petit Verdot, Malbec), in terms of Bordeaux itself 2015 was a banner year...so not a bad place to start. But off the top of my head Italian Sangiovese-based wines (eg, Brunello), or Nebbiolo-based wines (eg, Barolos or Barbarescos) also might do it for you. Personally, I'd also lay down some Valpolicellas from the Veneto region but they have a very specific flavor that people either like or don't. *I haven't included much about Pinot Noir/red burgundy as it doesn't match your flavor preference in my opinion.

-Drink as much different wine as possible. It's the best and most fun way to learn. I may have said that already.

Cheers!

Thank you very much, this was very informative.  I am starting to see regions and styles that look more familiar to ones that I have read on and have been suggested to me other places.  

I was already playing with the idea of doing more of a sampling sort of purchasing rather than cases, and this seems to  be confirmed.  

Am I right to assume that Pinot Noir and Red Burgundy are "fruitier"? If you have bench mark suggestions for these as well they would be welcomed with open arms.  

 

thank again!

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Yes, I'd say that Pinot Noir-based wines tend to be a bit softer, and fruitier than many of the wines I mentioned. Though they can age well. I also should have been more clear that I was more referring to "benchmark" varietals (types of grapes) versus "benchmark" producers/vineyards. Unfortunately, I'd say that within many of these wines the "benchmark" producers would be way up in the price stratosphere. However, you can find great wines in the $20-30 range within Napa/Bordeaux as well as "benchmark" wines of lesser known regions. I was merely talking about "widely liked types of wine" versus super high end stuff. Hopefully that helps! In terms of individual producers/bottlings, a lot of it is personal preference and part of the fun...a lot like cigars.

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3 hours ago, Lant63 said:

So, in short, I would like to start laying down some wine.  I figured this would be the best place to ask questions because the wine guys here seems very knowledgeable.  

I am located in the US. I do not know if that matters or not.  

Unfortunately, I know very little about wine in general other than that I like smokey/tobacco reds and citrus crisp whites that aren't sweet. 

My plan is to start purchasing a case of wine every month, in the hope that I could have a nice collection in a decade or even longer.  I plan on drinking some of the bottles over the years, but I hope that I will have at least a couple bottles of each case left at the 10 year mark, and a single bottle at the 20. 

  • Is this even possible in the 20-30 USD range to have these wines develop over a decade or longer? Or, am I looking at these being more of "drink now" wines rather aging wines? If there are vineyards in this price range I should concentrate on please feel free to suggest some.  
  • Should I concentrate on certain regions for aging over others, or more specifically should I avoid certain  regions more so.  
  • Are there wines that do not age well?
  • Should I try to find a wine shop, or am I better off shopping online?
  • Are there any online resources that I should subscribe to, either reviews, magazines, or forums that I should pay attention to?  

If you've read thus far, thank you. I am excited to start this adventure, and I am  trying to decide what Penfolds I need to put away.  I'm already thinking of expanding my budget to put a case of 2015 bin 389 away.  

Thanks again.

Cheers. 

can i suggest that before you even think of doing this (and i speak as one of the very high percentage who originally ignored this advice when it was given to me), don't bother unless you have the appropriate place to store it. if you don't, just keep a few cases for current drinking and buy when you need more. don't do the 'but my house is cold' or ''this is a really cool room' etc etc. being cool is fine but it needs to be consistent as well. so cool to cold and back will also stuff your wine. you also want a place that is dark all the time and free from any possible vibration. if you do not have a designated room with proper temperature control by way of air con or refrigeration then look to professional storage. seriously, otherwise, you are ripping up your money.

after that, yes, plenty of wines in that price point that will age well. plenty less so. if you are serious, you'll need to get on to wine mags and sites and books but especially local experts. hard for me to answer re a shop or online for prices etc, but again, if you are half serious, find the best shop (even better, find a couple) and get to know the staff. they will be your best asset for a few years. get along to every tasting you can. this will be the best way to improve your own knowledge and to see what you like and to see those wines which will age and those less so. it will also give you access to wines you might not get otherwise, especially if the staff see you are serious and likely to be a long term customer.

as to regions, so much from so many. the more you taste, the more they will open up to you.

yes, plenty of wines do not age well and they are often never intended to. sauv blanc for example. rare for them to age well, though not unknown. beaujolais - again, can age but most are best in the first year or two. the top cru will age.

penfolds 389 is a very wise choice. they age superbly and are extremely reliable.

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5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

if you are serious, you'll need to get on to wine mags and sites and books but especially local experts. 

 

 

This is great advice especially for someone just starting off. 

 

One thing I would also point out when considering laying down bottles for 10-20 years is that you really need to know your vintages, since some simply will not have the legs for that. This is when having additional resources such as books, magazines and knowledgeable  wine shop staff will certainly help. 

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On 10/30/2017 at 6:51 PM, Ken Gargett said:

can i suggest that before you even think of doing this (and i speak as one of the very high percentage who originally ignored this advice when it was given to me), don't bother unless you have the appropriate place to store it. if you don't, just keep a few cases for current drinking and buy when you need more. don't do the 'but my house is cold' or ''this is a really cool room' etc etc. being cool is fine but it needs to be consistent as well. so cool to cold and back will also stuff your wine. you also want a place that is dark all the time and free from any possible vibration. if you do not have a designated room with proper temperature control by way of air con or refrigeration then look to professional storage. seriously, otherwise, you are ripping up your money.

after that, yes, plenty of wines in that price point that will age well. plenty less so. if you are serious, you'll need to get on to wine mags and sites and books but especially local experts. hard for me to answer re a shop or online for prices etc, but again, if you are half serious, find the best shop (even better, find a couple) and get to know the staff. they will be your best asset for a few years. get along to every tasting you can. this will be the best way to improve your own knowledge and to see what you like and to see those wines which will age and those less so. it will also give you access to wines you might not get otherwise, especially if the staff see you are serious and likely to be a long term customer.

as to regions, so much from so many. the more you taste, the more they will open up to you.

yes, plenty of wines do not age well and they are often never intended to. sauv blanc for example. rare for them to age well, though not unknown. beaujolais - again, can age but most are best in the first year or two. the top cru will age.

penfolds 389 is a very wise choice. they age superbly and are extremely reliable.

 

19 hours ago, stinkhead said:

This is great advice especially for someone just starting off. 

 

One thing I would also point out when considering laying down bottles for 10-20 years is that you really need to know your vintages, since some simply will not have the legs for that. This is when having additional resources such as books, magazines and knowledgeable  wine shop staff will certainly help. 

Are there any particular magazines/websites I should look into?  We all know the Cigar Aficionado is trash, are there wine magazines that are the same way?

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1 hour ago, Lant63 said:

 

Are there any particular magazines/websites I should look into?  We all know the Cigar Aficionado is trash, are there wine magazines that are the same way?

 

1 hour ago, Lant63 said:

 

Are there any particular magazines/websites I should look into?  We all know the Cigar Aficionado is trash, are there wine magazines that are the same way?

depends on location and the sort of wines you want. in the states, wine spec is very good for certain things, less so for others. wine enthusiast. also very good. wine and spirits. more internationally, decanter, the Fine group which has Fine, Fine Bordeaux, Fine Champagne and so on. also UK World of Fine Wine. that is pretty much top of tree but we are looking at something more for the obsessed at the pointy end.

one comment - agree that vintages are very important, but always exceptions. but they are very useful as a general rule and until you are more familiar with producers, excellent way to proceed. that said, in certain regions i'd be more inclined to go with producer over vintage. burgundy is an obvious example. keeping an eye on both is probably the best way to go.

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I think I have a good place to store the wine.  I have a room in my basement, that gets no sunlight, and has a yearly fluctuation in temperature of approx 4 degrees Celsius (60-65f) and 5 degrees of relative humidity.  There would be no vibration in this room.  From what I have read these seem like appropriate conditions.  

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Red Burgundy is Pinot Noir.  I would go easy into investing into Burgundy and there little at under $30 unless you discover deals.  For earlier maturing wines from Burgundy like village wines you can find stuff, but not much Premier Cru.  The Burgundy whites are Chardonnay.  Unoaked (or not heavily oaked) CA chard's at auction or retail are great buys these days.  Not so many are chasing them, and 20+ year old wines from good producers are drinking great!

You should break up your investment into wines that will mature in different time frames.  Wines for short term (now to 5 years), mid term (5-15 years) and long term (15+).  Keep in mind if you drink a bottle of wine several nights a week, you could easily go through 300+ bottles of wine a year.  Divide your purchases equally between the tiers.

For starting off, I would recommend buying wines that can go the distance and don't break the bank.  Italian and Rhone wines are good start.  Most Barolo and Chianti wines go 20+ year easily (been drinking 83 + 85 Chianti with plenty of life).  For sure there is Bordeaux and every brand has 2nd & 3rd labels which are still very high quality.  Portugal has great red and white wines with many top names still under-valued compared to same level wine in France.  20 years from now, those wines may get their due.  CA Cabs I feel it depends on the producer.  Not all them have the stuffing for old bones.  They changed the way wines were made in the late 90's and only so many have gone back to traditional methods that make for old wine.  Plus, most aren't very inexpensive.  

For return on investment, blue chip Champagne like Cristal and Dom Perignon are sure fire winners.  Even though a ton is made, most is sold to hospitality industry and gone quite quick.  For longevity, port wine and madeira can last a lifetime and then some.

Ultimately, you need to purchase wine you like to drink and start drinking different stuff at different maturity levels to see what you'll have to look forward to.  Once you have some confidence it what you want, there are plenty of wine auctions so you can buy some mature wines to drink now or age even longer.

 

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21 hours ago, Lant63 said:

Are there any particular magazines/websites I should look into?  We all know the Cigar Aficionado is trash, are there wine magazines that are the same way?

I would suggest find other wine drinker or collectors and doing tasting.  Plenty of stuff online.

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