aussie rugby getting worse, not better...

[Ken Gargett]

Australian rugby. The only highlights I have seen from this weekend was the first blues try v NSW.

If you have not seen it, get on to ‘The Roar’ or whatever. You just want to hang your head (although seeing NSW lose does warm the cockles).

Kick along the sideline by the blues and folau, all the time in the world, bumbles about trying to pick it up. Flings a pass to Foley which bounces in front of him, but sits up for him fortunately. This is 3 yards from their try line. Foley, instead of kicking it as far as he can, as anyone who has ever wandered past a TV with a game of rugby on it would know to do, flings his own pass to beale, who blind Freddie could see is under pressure from advancing defenders (so basically, Foley just threw it away so he would not be the one caught – talk about tossing your mates under the bus). It also bounces once. The wallaby fly half can’t pass five yards without it landing on the ground. Beale is immediately tackled and turns it over and the blues walk it over for a try. Awful. Stupid. Incompetent.

So, three of our key wallaby backline players looking like inept schoolboys. Understandable for folau to pass as he was right next to the sideline, but to pass so poorly after looking like a gumby picking it up? And putting beale under pressure, well you get what you deserve with that.

But Foley is supposedly the brains of the backline. And he does that? he really is the ultimate buffoon. Awful. He is worse than the worst of Lloyd Walker and David Knox combined. I thought him the worst five eight we have ever seen but he really is the worst player ever to wear a wallaby jersey. Daylight second.

The tragic thing for Australian rugby is that there is no one challenging him (personally, I'd get a list of all props playing 4^th grade club rugby and throw a dart at a name because whoever you hit would do a better job). Mind you, even if there was someone, Cheika would no doubt stick with Foley (NSW and all that – hasn’t his reign been one monumental hole of crap. At least Cheika will be able to do stand-up when he goes – ‘I'll quit if we don’t win the next world cup’, would have to have people around the world still laughing).

So, foley can play like an imbecilic brainless puppy dog without any responsibility and get away with it (get away with playing like that without fear of any comeback from any coach, not with what he does – that always costs the team). Imagine Dan Carter or Wilkinson or Lynagh or Larkham or McLean playing with such stupidity. Imagine any current super rugby fly half from New Zealand or South Africa playing like that. Impossible. Even Ella, at least his pass would have been competent and unlikely to bounce.

And we think we’ll challenge the Irish, let alone the All Blacks?

I have completely given up on the wallabies until such time as we see the back of Foley and Cheika. I'm almost inclined to support both the Irish and the other mob if it means them going sooner. Almost.

[gweilgi]

5 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

Australian rugby. The only highlights I have seen from this weekend was the first blues try v NSW.

If you have not seen it, get on to ‘The Roar’ or whatever. You just want to hang your head (although seeing NSW lose does warm the cockles).

Kick along the sideline by the blues and folau, all the time in the world, bumbles about trying to pick it up. Flings a pass to Foley which bounces in front of him, but sits up for him fortunately. This is 3 yards from their try line. Foley, instead of kicking it as far as he can, as anyone who has ever wandered past a TV with a game of rugby on it would know to do, flings his own pass to beale, who blind Freddie could see is under pressure from advancing defenders (so basically, Foley just threw it away so he would not be the one caught – talk about tossing your mates under the bus). It also bounces once. The wallaby fly half can’t pass five yards without it landing on the ground. Beale is immediately tackled and turns it over and the blues walk it over for a try. Awful. Stupid. Incompetent.

So, three of our key wallaby backline players looking like inept schoolboys. Understandable for folau to pass as he was right next to the sideline, but to pass so poorly after looking like a gumby picking it up? And putting beale under pressure, well you get what you deserve with that.

But Foley is supposedly the brains of the backline. And he does that? he really is the ultimate buffoon. Awful. He is worse than the worst of Lloyd Walker and David Knox combined. I thought him the worst five eight we have ever seen but he really is the worst player ever to wear a wallaby jersey. Daylight second.

The tragic thing for Australian rugby is that there is no one challenging him (personally, I'd get a list of all props playing 4^th grade club rugby and throw a dart at a name because whoever you hit would do a better job). Mind you, even if there was someone, Cheika would no doubt stick with Foley (NSW and all that – hasn’t his reign been one monumental hole of crap. At least Cheika will be able to do stand-up when he goes – ‘I'll quit if we don’t win the next world cup’, would have to have people around the world still laughing).

So, foley can play like an imbecilic brainless puppy dog without any responsibility and get away with it (get away with playing like that without fear of any comeback from any coach, not with what he does – that always costs the team). Imagine Dan Carter or Wilkinson or Lynagh or Larkham or McLean playing with such stupidity. Imagine any current super rugby fly half from New Zealand or South Africa playing like that. Impossible. Even Ella, at least his pass would have been competent and unlikely to bounce.

And we think we’ll challenge the Irish, let alone the All Blacks?

I have completely given up on the wallabies until such time as we see the back of Foley and Cheika. I'm almost inclined to support both the Irish and the other mob if it means them going sooner. Almost.

The problem you will have to face up to is that Foley is still the best kicker you have.  No way around that -- without a good kicker, you might as well save yourselves the money of those flight tickets to Japan.  

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

Just now, gweilgi said:

The problem you will have to face up to is that Foley is still the best kicker you have.  No way around that -- without a good kicker, you might as well save yourselves the money of those flight tickets to Japan.  

 

i'm actually not sure that is true (the bit about foley the best - needing a quality kicker is absolutely true). he is a really poor kicker quite often. he has his moments but over time, if you look at a spectrum for both goalkicking and ground kicking, with guys like johnny, lynagh, mclean, carter, so many others, they are all up in the 9 or 10 out of ten, while foley would be lucky to have ever edged above a 3. 

i googled top rugby kickers. here are just two sites below, which interestingly have a lot less overlap than you'd think. foley appears in neither of them. 

i always remember how so many nsw fans were banging on about the iceman last year and, the first time we lost to scotland (yes, scotland) we have jellyboots foley missing penalties from in front. and the same week, or thereabouts, we have thurston in the state of origin, he has had his shoulder smashed so badly that his left arm is just hanging (the injury would end his season). he has to step up at full time for a long range shot from the sideline on his wrong side to kick the goal, with 80,000 rabid nsw fans screaming for his head, to win the game and keep qld in the series. did not look like missing it. and foley is the iceman! spare me. he is awful

would anyone, including foley, want foley kicking for their life? 

but your point about someone better is well made. surely there is someone? to be honest, someone approximately as good (or more accurately, someone approximately as bog average) as foley is needed. rugby league has probably 15-20 kickers all better than foley. and rugby has bugger all. how, when groundkicking in rugby is so much more important than it is in league, and when you get three points, not two, for penalties, does that make any sense? the new kid from qld, hamish stewart, is apparently a very good kick, and his style looks to me very much like lockyer, but last week he kicked poorly. if he can get it together, perhaps we can finally dump foley. but cheika won't. 

there has to be someone. 

 

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/adrumm/top-10-goal-kickers-world-rugby-right-now/

 

http://intheloose.com/2013/06/05/the-11-best-kickers-in-world-rugby/

[JohnS]

Yes, well the 24-21 loss by the Waratahs represents the 38th (yes, I said it correctly, 38th!) consecutive loss by Australian Super Rugby teams to New Zealand Rugby teams. This whole scenario is beyond woeful, and it stems from the top. The people responsible for leading Rugby Union in Australia, what actually is it that you care about and are prioritising? Because it's not performance from the Austalian national side or domestic sides!

When you see what's happened at the Canterbury Rugby League club in the last few years, and then decide to hire their CEO responsible for that mess to lead your sport (i.e. Australian Rugby Union), what exactly should we expect...miracles?

[99call]

Hhhmm? to genuinely be a kicker that make a difference on the club or international stage you have to be 85% to 90%, edge to edge of the park, and with a distance of 50meters plus. As a Welshman you only have to look at Leigh Halfpenny, and his mentor the great Neil Jenkins (perhaps the greatest of them all). It's all about where you get the penalties. If Wales get an conversion, it's usually on either edge of the park, and if they get a penalty, it's usually on the halfway line.

It's not critical if your 10 can score a boat load of tries a la Bauden Barritt (as he's dodgy as all hell with the boot). In the big games however (like the recent lions series) Barritt was exposed, and his kicking was one of the key differences.

If Halfpenny would of played for NZ he would of broken all sorts of records, But even if a New Zealander, his limited running game, means he never would of been picked. 

I think the hopes of Aussie, rest on what the team can achieve, as opposed to it resting with individuals. 

[ayepatz]

Interesting lists. And while Laidlaw might be statistically out front, it’s worth remembering that he has no boot for distance. Those kicking duties normally fall to Hogg.

[99call]

48 minutes ago, ayepatz said:

Interesting lists. And while Laidlaw might be statistically out front, it’s worth remembering that he has no boot for distance. Those kicking duties normally fall to Hogg.

Yep, Laidlaw is pretty metronomic, but with fairly easy kicks.  Currently the scariest pair up in international rugby is Farrell and Daly from anything up to 60. 

That particular combo is currently a bit toothless, as Englands forward are inept at winning penalties, but if it clicks, (i hope it doesn't) it will be pretty brutal.  On the upside, if you get physical/verbal with Farrell he explodes and falls off the boil. 

 

[gweilgi]

2 hours ago, JohnS said:

Yes, well the 24-21 loss by the Waratahs represents the 38th (yes, I said it correctly, 38th!) consecutive loss by Australian Super Rugby teams to New Zealand Rugby teams. This whole scenario is beyond woeful, and it stems from the top. The people responsible for leading Rugby Union in Australia, what actually is it that you care about and are prioritising? Because it's not performance from the Austalian national side or domestic sides!

When you see what's happened at the Canterbury Rugby League club in the last few years, and then decide to hire their CEO responsible for that mess to lead your sport (i.e. Australian Rugby Union), what exactly should we expect...miracles?

I see we have all been reading Alan Jones...

In seriousness: you are correct, of course, that a fish starts to stink from the top.  But even with a total swap-out of the entire board, matters are not going to get better overnight, or even in the next few years.  Money is tight.  Organisation is a shambles.  There are not enough good Aussie coaches.  The fan base is demoralised.  The grassroots of Union are dying.  To repair all of that will take time, and patience.  

 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

7 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

In seriousness: you are correct, of course, that a fish starts to stink from the top.  But even with a total swap-out of the entire board, matters are not going to get better overnight, or even in the next few years.  Money is tight.  Organisation is a shambles.  There are not enough good Aussie coaches.  The fan base is demoralised.  The grassroots of Union are dying.  To repair all of that will take time, and patience.  

very very true.

mind you, this seems to have escaped the cricket administrators. we might be responsible for the disaster but who better to fix it? anyone! 

you can see the mess they have created - back to rugby - by going to a game. even just 6-7 years ago, suncorp would have excellent crowds, many thousands, to watch the reds. might not have been more than the broncos but close. now, the game against the lions. we have a young promising reds team, new attitude and coach, some top players. up against the side leading the comp and the finalist for the last two years. i have seats pretty close to half way. back then, every row for as far as one could see - remembering that these are all season or long term seats - was always chockers. now, swing the proverbial cat. the crowd for that game was 12,300 plus. that means that 10,000 must have been stuck in the bars or lord knows where because there were about 2,500 in the seats. the count all manner of people who don't turn up to inflate the figures. this game must have cost qld/aussie rugby a bucketload because there was near no return from the gate. for decades, i would never miss a game if i was in qld. now, for several games, just watch it on tv at friends or family. and i am 15 minutes from the ground. demoralised and dying is a gross understatement. 

compare this with what we will see at origin. 

i'm not sure that they can repair it. these days, they'll get okay crowds at tests, but even those used to be sold out. now, just reasonable crowds. rugby in australi is on life support. sadly, the doctors in control have no clue. 

[gweilgi]

17 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

very very true.

mind you, this seems to have escaped the cricket administrators. we might be responsible for the disaster but who better to fix it? anyone! 

As a rule, I try to be very sceptical of armchair-quarterbacking, but I suspect that in this case, you may be right...

 

17 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

you can see the mess they have created - back to rugby - by going to a game. even just 6-7 years ago, suncorp would have excellent crowds, many thousands, to watch the reds. might not have been more than the broncos but close. now, the game against the lions. we have a young promising reds team, new attitude and coach, some top players. up against the side leading the comp and the finalist for the last two years. i have seats pretty close to half way. back then, every row for as far as one could see - remembering that these are all season or long term seats - was always chockers. now, swing the proverbial cat. the crowd for that game was 12,300 plus. that means that 10,000 must have been stuck in the bars or lord knows where because there were about 2,500 in the seats. the count all manner of people who don't turn up to inflate the figures. this game must have cost qld/aussie rugby a bucketload because there was near no return from the gate. for decades, i would never miss a game if i was in qld. now, for several games, just watch it on tv at friends or family. and i am 15 minutes from the ground. demoralised and dying is a gross understatement. 

Actually, the Tahs match did give me one idea that might be worth trying.  For once, they played not at the Allianz Stadium in front of a few thousand dedicated fans who made the expensive trek to rattle around a huge stadium.  They went out into the suburbs and played before a sell-out crowd.  There were 22,000 people at the Brookvale Oval, shouting and watching and generally having a good time.  So why not take Super Rugby on the road?  Why not go and play the smaller venues out in the suburbs and inland towns?  This would bring Rugby to the fans and the grassroots.  There would be packed stadiums creating a good atmosphere, people would have a good time watching ... both in the grounds and on the TV screens.  Folk remember that sort of stuff, and may form a better opinion of Rugby, may even decide that it's worth following and playing.  

 

 

17 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

compare this with what we will see at origin. 

i'm not sure that they can repair it. these days, they'll get okay crowds at tests, but even those used to be sold out. now, just reasonable crowds. rugby in australi is on life support. sadly, the doctors in control have no clue. 

A few suggestions, off the top of my head:

- flush and replace the entire board; a fish stinks from the head down, and incomers cannot possibly do any worse than the current lot.

- go talk to Twiggy.  Bring him onside.  He has the passion to put his money where his mouth is, and both are what we need right now.  

- create a clear pathway for players to become coaches -- they have the experience as players, surely there are those who can make the transition.

- get Aussie coaches -- what the hell is Glen Ella doing coaching England?  He should be here.

- find, beg, borrow or steal some money to do unto League and the AFL what they have done unto us for too long: poach some players form the other codes.  That would solve your Foley problem...

Feel free to continue...

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

10 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

As a rule, I try to be very sceptical of armchair-quarterbacking, but I suspect that in this case, you may be right...

 

Actually, the Tahs match did give me one idea that might be worth trying.  For once, they played not at the Allianz Stadium in front of a few thousand dedicated fans who made the expensive trek to rattle around a huge stadium.  They went out into the suburbs and played before a sell-out crowd.  There were 22,000 people at the Brookvale Oval, shouting and watching and generally having a good time.  So why not take Super Rugby on the road?  Why not go and play the smaller venues out in the suburbs and inland towns?  This would bring Rugby to the fans and the grassroots.  There would be packed stadiums creating a good atmosphere, people would have a good time watching ... both in the grounds and on the TV screens.  Folk remember that sort of stuff, and may form a better opinion of Rugby, may even decide that it's worth following and playing.  

 

 

A few suggestions, off the top of my head:

- flush and replace the entire board; a fish stinks from the head down, and incomers cannot possibly do any worse than the current lot.

- go talk to Twiggy.  Bring him onside.  He has the passion to put his money where his mouth is, and both are what we need right now.  

- create a clear pathway for players to become coaches -- they have the experience as players, surely there are those who can make the transition.

- get Aussie coaches -- what the hell is Glen Ella doing coaching England?  He should be here.

- find, beg, borrow or steal some money to do unto League and the AFL what they have done unto us for too long: poach some players form the other codes.  That would solve your Foley problem...

Feel free to continue...

 

 

it is insane that rugby has not grabbed twiggy and got him on the board. he wants to save the game but all the current board want is to save their jobs. 

they have tried poaching players. mixed success. the problem is, or one of the problems, that kids from the private schools, who once went almost exclusively to rugby (the king being a rare exception), now see little difference. and they have four options for rugby but 16 for league. plus origin, though rugby has tests. kayln ponga would once have automatically gone to the reds and rugby. so too, jaydn su'A. brodie croft. those three i use as examples as they all came from my old school and played together, give or take. ponga on squillions with newcastle, this morning there is talk of clubs chasing su'A for $1.5 mill to prise him away from the broncos. and croft is with the storm and the long term hope to replace cronk. in the past, all would be playing rugby. there are plenty of other examples. angus crichton in sydney. many more. 

taking the game to the country works to a limited extent. there are problems as these sides have sold long term/season tickets to fans and promised them these games. you might get away with moving one, or moving to nearby grounds, but they'll scream if you take away the games they have already paid to see, 

[gweilgi]

45 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

it is insane that rugby has not grabbed twiggy and got him on the board. he wants to save the game but all the current board want is to save their jobs. 

I'm not sure about those new rules he introduced with his World Series Rugby (who needs yet another code??), but you are bang on.  Twiggy on the board of RA is a direct threat to all their cushy jobs.  He's a can-do man, he wants results ... not what a bunch of rent-seeking administrators like to see at the table, not at all!

 

45 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

they have tried poaching players. mixed success. the problem is, or one of the problems, that kids from the private schools, who once went almost exclusively to rugby (the king being a rare exception), now see little difference. and they have four options for rugby but 16 for league. plus origin, though rugby has tests. kayln ponga would once have automatically gone to the reds and rugby. so too, jaydn su'A. brodie croft. those three i use as examples as they all came from my old school and played together, give or take. ponga on squillions with newcastle, this morning there is talk of clubs chasing su'A for $1.5 mill to prise him away from the broncos. and croft is with the storm and the long term hope to replace cronk. in the past, all would be playing rugby. there are plenty of other examples. angus crichton in sydney. many more. 

Four options ... in Australia.  For anyone good enough, the world is their tasty bivalve.  Japan pays well.  Europe pays even better.  All that stands in their way of earning a very decent crust playing Rugby for clubs and the Green and Gold is the Giteau Rule ... and that is self-imposed, and can be changed.

 

45 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

taking the game to the country works to a limited extent. there are problems as these sides have sold long term/season tickets to fans and promised them these games. you might get away with moving one, or moving to nearby grounds, but they'll scream if you take away the games they have already paid to see, 

Fair point.  I was thinking from my perspective, as a Member of the SCG who is about to lose the Allianz Stadium (but who is expected to pay full whack in fees nonetheless -- that's another topic).  I suppose if such matches are not too far out, fans can still be asked to go and see them, with their tickets being honoured.  There are also possible transport alternatives: I live just down the road from the Eastern Suburbs Leagues Club, and they lay on free shuttle buses for fans to and from the venue ... it costs money, to be sure, but it does get the fans in.  

[Ken Gargett]

2 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

Four options ... in Australia.  For anyone good enough, the world is their tasty bivalve.  Japan pays well.  Europe pays even better.  All that stands in their way of earning a very decent crust playing Rugby for clubs and the Green and Gold is the Giteau Rule ... and that is self-imposed, and can be changed.

 

true but i sometimes wonder if some of the local managers are not keen to have their kids play outside australia in case they lose them. 

but they do have to make a name for themselves first, whether as a young rugby or league player. that can be easier in league as more opportunities. and so few kids impressing in rugby these days as we keep getting thumped by everyone else.

also, imagine you are a young kid. the same week as you see three men and a brown dog turn up to country nsw or wherever it was, to watch the wallabies fumble and bumble their way to a loss against scotland, origin has 80,000 plus screaming fans, national tv ratings that outdo everything, front and back and much of the in between pages in newspapers, plus you get $30k for simply walking in the field. on top of your annual salary. and if you play all three, you pocket $90k!