Rift between the Baby Boomer generation and Millenials

[Thig]

HHHmm I think you are off the mark here mate.

My apologies, one of the reasons it is hard to have this kind of discussion over the internet. Without living in someone else's shoes you really don't know where they are coming from. Just seems like here in the US there is a tendency for the younger generation to blame the older for their lack of success.

[99call]

Just now, Thig said:

My apologies, one of the reasons it is hard to have this kind of discussion over the internet. Without living in someone else's shoes you really don't know where they are coming from. Just seems like here in the US there is a tendency for the younger generation to blame the older for their lack of success.

 

No worries at all.    A apologise also.  the thread really came to mind, due to the recent move in the UK to offer a cash peace offering to the youth. I can completely see that the US, is a different ball game all together. 

What seems to be universal, is that older generations should be generous with their knowledge if others taught them, and the youth should not hold their hand out, without hard work.      Both generations mentioned are guilty of not living up to these standards

[Colt45]

10 minutes ago, 99call said:

 Both generations mentioned are guilty of not living up to these standards

Very generally speaking, I've never really tended to paint large groups of people with a broad brush - BBs are this, Mills are that, Americans are like this, etc (it's actually a pet peeve of mine). I try my best to consider the individual.

My only point, if I have one, is that generational differences have existed pretty much forever, but the human landscape is most definitely changing right before our eyes.

[99call]

Just now, Colt45 said:

Very generally speaking, I've never really tended to paint large groups of people with a broad brush - BBs are this, Mills are that, Americans are like this, etc (it's actually a pet peeve of mine). I try my best to consider the individual.

My only point, if I have one, is that generational differences have existed pretty much forever, but the human landscape is most definitely changing right before our eyes.

I can definitely agree with this. As long as we continue to help and teach, hard working youngsters all will be well.   but if either party reneg on this, (ie.willingness to teach/or to deliver hard work etc) all is lost.

[99call]

1 hour ago, Weaponiz'd1 said:

I may be off the mark here, but the above highlighted statement strikes me as absurdly entitled.

Yep, You are off the mark.   I have no reason to be entitled. I have not received priviledge.  an have no scratch to itch.  

My point is. Why would a Tory/conservative government EVER! consider just giving a generation 10K per person?     it's crazy... there must be guilt attached.  (just so you know the UK conservative government wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire).    There is guilt attached, but it's wrong to thing a hand out with the way to deal with it. 

My nieces and nephew are hard working, and are entrepreneurial. They will be happy and successful without handouts.......and this is fine...... nobody wants handouts.

My point is this,  In silversmithing you cant really make mistake, both for safety reasons, but also for monetary ones.  The idea that a 70yr old who's had a hardcore hands on education had some bonafide reason for not passing that on is absolute nonsense. 

PS the internet is largely useless for what I do, it's all hand to hand. .........anyone in my profession who thinks they could do anything with knowledge gleaned from the internet is..........well.........a lost cause. 

Ultimately, my point is, BB's should be enthused to teach (outside of their own gain), and Millenials should be more willing to knuckle down without immediate contracted reward. 

[rcarlson]

19 minutes ago, 99call said:

My point is. Why would a Tory/conservative government EVER! consider just giving a generation 10K per person? 

Political power.  In the U.S. something like this is to buy votes from the recipient demographic provided there is no perceived greater loss from the donor demographic. Is that not the case in this instance?   

[bpm32]

I’m 37 as well, so I guess I’d be considered a “cusper” or the “Oregon Trail Generation” as some people call it in the US. I was enormously lucky: generous scholarships from well-off alumni paid for my undergraduate education and my graduate schooling was free (as it still is for the sciences in the US). I graduated in 2008 and found a job right before the economic downturn. Right after that the scholarships disappeared and tuition at my alma mater has since doubled. The places that were hiring in 2008 had stopped in 2009 and so many graybeards in my field had their 401ks wiped out that they stuck around a few extra years and I benefitted enormously from their knowledge and mentoring.

I’m old enough that I give the “kids” we hire a hard time, but I do recognize they had it a lot harder than I did. They’ve got all this debt I didn’t have and now they’ve got a far less competent mentor (me) than I had. While I’d never admit it to them, I pretty impressed by how they’ve handled themselves. Just my impressions from my limited experience.....

 

[99call]

1 minute ago, rcarlson said:

Political power.  In the U.S. something like this is to buy votes from the recipient demographic provided there is no perceived greater loss from the donor demographic  

Yep, I can agree to a degree.   My point is, the conservative are already! in power, they are not seeking re-election anytime soon, and this kind of came out of nowhere. it seemed to state.

"we want to keep on f-----g you over for the foreseble, if you would kindly agree to this, we will give you a petty payoff"

[99call]

3 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

I’m 37 as well, so I guess I’d be considered a “cusper” or the “Oregon Trail Generation” as some people call it in the US. I was enormously lucky: generous scholarships from well-off alumni paid for my undergraduate education and my graduate schooling was free (as it still is for the sciences in the US). I graduated in 2008 and found a job right before the economic downturn. Right after that the scholarships disappeared and tuition at my alma mater has since doubled. The places that were hiring in 2008 had stopped in 2009 and so many graybeards in my field had their 401ks wiped out that they stuck around a few extra years and I benefitted enormously from their knowledge and mentoring.

I’m old enough that I give the “kids” we hire a hard time, but I do recognize they had it a lot harder than I did. They’ve got all this debt I didn’t have and now they’ve got a far less competent mentor (me) than I had. While I’d never admit it to them, I pretty impressed by how they’ve handled themselves. Just my impressions from my limited experience.....

 

I think this is a great even handed account from the from the front line.     I think this really shows the opportunity drop off between being born in 1980 (like I was) and 1983 onwards. 

[rcarlson]

4 minutes ago, 99call said:

Yep, I can agree to a degree.   My point is, the conservative are already! in power, they are not seeking re-election anytime soon, and this kind of came out of nowhere. it seemed to state.

"we want to keep on f-----g you over for the foreseble, if you would kindly agree to this, we will give you a petty payoff"

Perhaps there was a miscalculation.  However, the U.S. politicians are always seeking re-election, particularly in the House.  

[Colt45]

As a kind of P.S, some years ago I had a brief discussion with a friend who felt that because someone went to college for a certain field, they deserved higher pay / standing than someone who actually worked at a job in that field for the same amount of time. I thought it ridiculous.....

[99call]

24 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

As a kind of P.S, some years ago I had a brief discussion with a friend who felt that because someone went to college for a certain field, they deserved higher pay / standing than someone who actually worked at a job in that field for the same amount of time. I thought it ridiculous.....

I think this all boils down to how a professional body or individual can accurately assess someone who is either 'time served' or a 'hobbiest".

To state this most accurately, within my profession, and accreditation scheme came in the 2004, during that time "professionals" for which some, had decades of experience, and some where pathetic hobbists "grandfathered" themselves!! into being accredited????.   Once accredited they would decide whom else of their younger competitors could get accreditation????? needless to say it was a massive con and full of BS.

In short, there are some professions where there are people who have been doing it for 40yrs, who know it all, and get no respect.

But equally, their are idiots who cant be bothered to learn or get the adequate qualification, who insist they know best, and travel round the country ruining heritage, because they they essentially know absolutely nothing...........this is not a one size fits all solution

[Fuzz]

4 hours ago, Colt45 said:

As a kind of P.S, some years ago I had a brief discussion with a friend who felt that because someone went to college for a certain field, they deserved higher pay / standing than someone who actually worked at a job in that field for the same amount of time. I thought it ridiculous.....

I kind of blame that on parents who tell their kids, "Go to college/university, get a degree and you will have a good paying job". Everyone I went to uni with (full disclosure, I'm a uni dropout) had this idea that, after they graduated, they would be given management positions. Having been working since I was a young teen, I knew that was an unrealistic mentality.

Later in my career, the company I worked for reinforced this idea by having a "Graduate" program. They basically took in new graduates, rotated them through multiple departments for 3 months at a time, then gave them mid-level management positions. For somebody who worked from the ground up, learning every aspect of each position I held and all the company systems (and some stuff that I shouldn't know ), it kind of irked me that these kids (ok, they were 10 years younger than me) were being fast-tracked into positions on my own level or even senior to me. On top of that, I was expected to train some of these kids that would be going into positions that I had been working towards.

Now in saying this, I have the work ethic that if you really wanted to work hard and learn, I would teach and help you rise up the ladder. I remember one girl, fresh out of high school, who was assigned to my team. She was nervous as all hell, lacked confidence and was severely underskilled. However, she wanted to learn. So I took the time to teach her the basics, slowly upskilling her to the point where she could handle any task I assigned her. When the project was over and she was reassigned, I told her she would be a project manager in a few years if she wanted it. She left the company a year or two later, but dropped me a line on LinkedIn a couple of years after to tell me she got a job as a PM.

Unfortunately, she was an exception to the young people I see. Now that I run my own business, the young people coming in as casual warehouse labour have no desire to work hard for a decent day's pay (avg pay is AUD$26 per hour). I've completely stopped using agency labour, as most of them just don't want to work. Had one guy who came in, worked for exactly 6 minutes, then quit saying, "I'm not doing this bullshit". I honestly did not know what he expected, as I very clearly outline what each casual will be doing when I hire staff.

I look at my friend's kids and I worry about them (I have none of my own, but I am uncle to many). All too often I see them spoilt and given anything and everything at the drop of a hat. I know you want to give your kids things that you yourself never had, but I don't see them earning it. Where are the chores to do around the house? Where is the discipline? How are they to learn the value of a dollar if they have never earned it? It just reinforces the entitled and immediate gratification culture.

[MIKA27]

I'm only 42, generation X, born in '76 but IMO, generations Y and onward, especially Millennial's onwards, are way too soft and expect in most, Not all, for handouts.

[Fuzz]

2 hours ago, MIKA27 said:

I'm only 42, generation X, born in '76 but IMO, generations Y and onward, especially Millennial's onwards, are way too soft and expect in most, Not all, for handouts.

Another seventy sixer here!

[anacostiakat]

Interesting topic.    Am in my mid-sixties, retired and my chosen career fields were accounting and IT.  No, I did not benefit from senior workers in my chosen fields.  I did greatly benefit from fellow workers who sometimes were my age or even younger.  Moving from the accounting field to IT.  After thirty years clawing my way up to middle management.

It can be little indicators of the millennial genners that expose their self absorption attitudes.  My wife always complains about younger workers not holding elevator doors.  Not saying Thanks or Thank You when someone does hold a door for them, etc.  Now I realize that the whole cell phone obsession plays into this.

The feeling of entitlement that seems to run rampant will be snuffed out with the reality of earning your daily bread.  YMMV

[99call]

4 hours ago, MIKA27 said:

7 hours ago, Fuzz said:

I look at my friend's kids and I worry about them (I have none of my own, but I am uncle to many). All too often I see them spoilt and given anything and everything at the drop of a hat. I know you want to give your kids things that you yourself never had, but I don't see them earning it.

generations Y and onward, especially Millennial's onwards, are way too soft and expect in most, Not all, for handouts.

I do think there is a great deal of poor parenting that goes on, in terms of BB's pacifying there millenial kids with money.  But all to often BB's are angry at their kids, for the ramifications of their own actions.   My parents were great, they were both very career minded, but never sought to fob off any of their kids with cash etc. 

I think a cruel truth for many parents of that BB generation, is that they were faced (for the first time) that "50 is the new 30", then "70 is the new 50" etc etc Essentially my grandparents seemed to thing kids was THE point to life, and the idea of 'self', or the necessity for an 'professional Indian summer' just wasn't important.    You look at advertising these days, and it all seems to be directed at a sort of "50 ways not to let your kids effect your career"   "Top 10 holiday destinations to palm off your kids".    I know a great deal of parents, who love Dubai, as they can essentially just hand their kids over at the hotel reception.    Jesus!  if you don't want kids, don't have them!  lord knows the world is crowded enough

It's not a blame game, but I do think their is a correlation between poor standards of parenting, and poor manners, spoilt behaviour, and a decreasing value for hard work in younger generations coming though.

 

[thedame007]

Millennial here  !

In the UK there is definitely a souring between the stereotypical Boomer/Millennial - though i imagine that this is largely down to media playing up the divides, and creating an amplification and self fulling prophecy over it all.

I think from my own biased perspective, I find the predicament I am in very frustrating, and cannot help but feel hard done to (Queue violins, weeping, and lots of #hashtag to really drive the point home...)

The key areas that seem to fuel the divide:

 

Housing:

• Boomer - affordable housing, social housing, very low mortgage to wage ratios, very few renters.
• Millennial - No social housing to speak of, affordable homes do not exist (all new builds are largely 4 bedrooms), and very few can now actually get any form of mortgage. Personally, even if i could save enough for a 50 k deposit, i still do not earn enough to be offered a mortgage to make up the rest. This has created an inflated 'renters market' which is largely made up of Millennial's who cannot get a mortgage, and where the landlords are often Boomers with their second/third/fourth/++ homes (thereby propping up the selling market). So we find ourselves unable to save for a mortgage, whilst finding myself getting charge a rent rate that in the least covers the mortgage on the property for the Boomer. 

 

University Education:

• Boomer - Free.
• Millennial - 'Want the degree we told you, you need? That's £30,000 please'

 

Pensions/Retirement:

• Boomer: State pension (paid for by your National Insurance contribution) + Private Pensions
• Millennial: Warning that state pension will likely cease (still paying National Insurance, put this is plugging/funding the Boomers pensions), now have to pay into a second government pension as well, + any private pension. Ultimately, we are been forced to pay twice, to get paid once. On top of this, pension age is rising, which is fine as we will have to work ourselves into the grave - latest government review stated that the Millennial without a home (see above) needs to have a pension pot worth £400,000 if they want to retire at 68 . Honestly, if i didn't spend any of my yearly wage, it would take me 20 years to save that. It is not going to happen for the average Millennial. So it will be a case of work until you drop, to pay the rent on the house you would never own. This is one of the major reasons why I am pro-euthanasia, it will be far easier for me to walk into a clinic at 80 (when I can no longer work due to health) and be done with it. It would also loosen the burden on the NHS. Silver linings. Guess this is one of the reasons why I couldn't care less about warnings over smoking cigars, eating bacon, or drinking coffee, I am going to live every moment of this life I can, while i have got it. 

 

Careers:

• Boomer: generally speaking it was a 'job for life' with forward progression and security.
• Millennial: No job security (I am 30 and i have been made redundant twice already due to 'restructuring' which basically means wiping out middle manager roles), zero hour contracts are rife (on which you cannot pass any mortgage, rent or loan checks as you have no guaranteed income, so you find yourself stuck), and then we have the wonderful automation on the horizon. 

 

I could go on but this post is already too long.

I guess my main point is that for all the media is creating a Them Vs Us scenario, and they love fanning the flames (The Daily Mail/Hate ran a ridiculous editorial stating that Millennial could easily afford a mortgage if they just stopped buying avocados...).

But ultimately, it's more about the frustration my generation feel at been denied the opportunities that previous generations have. I do not want to take anything away from the Boomers who have worked hard for their home, and deserve to retire early and have the free education. We would just like to have the same - to be able to work towards these key life goals.

I guess in the end it's all politics.

 

[foursite12]

Every generation becomes fair game for the criticisms of their successors.  The flip-side of that coin is that every generation has new opportunities to make a difference as world events, technology, longer lives and other factors close certain doors behind us and open other gates moving forward. Road maps either do not exist or become obsolete, but over all of recorded time successful individuals have been the ones with the vision to spot those new gates and the courage to walk through them; a fact that remains true today. 

New problems arise, and old ones persist longer than average lifespans. Many of the issues expressed by the current generation are the residue of several prior generations who have been unable to resolve them within their own times of influence. Two steps forward followed by one and a half steps back. People who grew up in the 60s can recall the pride and sense of achievement from huge gains in civil rights and air and water environmental issues.  Yet, despite all of that apparent progress, human acceptance and the environment rightly remain at the forefront of issues expressed by the current generation.

Although mostly regarded as a 60s anthem, Dylan's words on generational transition apply to any time and any place:

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'."

[99call]

6 minutes ago, foursite12 said:

Every generation becomes fair game for the criticisms of their successors.  The flip-side of that coin is that every generation has new opportunities to make a difference as world events, technology, longer lives and other factors close certain doors behind us and open other gates moving forward. Road maps either do not exist or become obsolete, but over all of recorded time successful individuals have been the ones with the vision to spot those new gates and the courage to walk through them; a fact that remains true today. 

New problems arise, and old ones persist longer than average lifespans. Many of the issues expressed by the current generation are the residue of several prior generations who have been unable to resolve them within their own times of influence. Two steps forward followed by one and a half steps back. People who grew up in the 60s can recall the pride and sense of achievement from huge gains in civil rights and air and water environmental issues.  Yet, despite all of that apparent progress, human acceptance and the environment rightly remain at the forefront of issues expressed by the current generation.

Although mostly regarded as a 60s anthem, Dylan's words on generational transition apply to any time and any place:

"Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'."

Great post, Hats off

[99call]

18 minutes ago, FatherOfPugs said:

I'm another 37er on here, born in the first half of 1981. I consider myself the tail end of Gen X, although some lump me in with Gen Y or Millennials.

I'm grateful that my parents, part of the baby boom generation taught me to work hard, work smart, and that nothing is free; if someone says something is free, somewhere, someone is paying for it.

I paid for college and graduate school with student loans that I paid back in full with interest, because I knew when I signed on the dotted line for the loan it was just that, a loan. We paid for my wife to go to law school with student loans we are still paying back. I don't understand why people think college should be free, no public education is free, K - 12 public education is paid for by tax dollars from property taxes (mine keep going up), and going to college is a privilege, not a right. If you go to a private school or university, then it most definitely should not even be close to free.

I've worked hard to get where I am in life as has my wife. We haven't asked for handouts at any point. My wife graduated from law school into one of the worst economies that the USA ever saw years ago during the recession. You know what we did to make it work? We budgeted and stopped spending money! Hell, there were a couple years where I didn't buy a single cigar, couldn't afford it, it is a luxury item. We don't blame the previous generation for what has happened because I'll make a be that in 30 years, whatever generation is then in their 20s will be blaming those of us in their 60s for their problems as it seems to be the case today.

My cousin's fiance was complaining at the last family get together that she couldn't find a job that promised her a strict 9am - 5pm schedule, with no weekends, all holidays off, and no work outside of when she was in the office and paid a salary of $60,000USD - she has no experience, she just graduated from college. My wife and I just laughed out load! We both tried to explain to this neophyte that if you want a salaried job paying $60,000 a year, expect to have to work after "business" hours and have some industry experience. I don't know......this new generation entering the work force wants everything that people have worked 10, 15, 20 years to have, and to have it right now!  My cousin even quit his job last week to pursue an entirely new career because he was "sick of being the grunt or low man on the chain." He doesn't seem to understand you need to work your way up by impressing your bosses and work to get raises and promotions so one day you can be the boss. If you want to the boss from day 1, start your own company and set your own hours. Just seems messed up to me, that some folks in this younger generation have an entitlement complex and expect everything to come up sunshine and rainbows, and have an extremely hard time when they face a little adversity. 

Great post. 

Although I'm a bit sceptical at to weather it is that simple these days.   I much like you was working from 15 on and the structure of hard work very much paid dividend. I worked in Kitchens Chefing, and if you did all the gruesome stuff, and washed pots till 2 in the morning etc etc I paid off, people thought well of you, and trusted you etc etc. 

I see so much bullshit lying in the modern work place, so many broken promises, so many cons, of people wanting to use cheap labour and rip people off.  Terms like "were re-purposing your position" or "we are going to put your role up for secondment". It's all disingenuous bullshit.   Yes, there is a still a path to the top, for hard working committed people, but the era of BB's big business all seems to be about profiting off other peoples weakness. i.e housing markets etc

I think every generation has things to be proud off, and things to be ashamed off. My core thought on feeling is however is that it's increasingly getting a bit tribal (between the generations) and it's sad to see, whatever the reason is. 

[thedame007]

I think this highlights how the UK example and experience is worlds away from the US one. A lot of the US BOTL are sharing great experiences, but these are largely on the same playing field as the Millennials are playing on in their country.

The UK is a marked difference, a lot of the frustration here stems from the fact that a lot of the opportunities the Boomers had (free education, dependable work, opportunity to own a home) no longer exist anymore. Again, my point is not to state that Boomers had it easy, or that their benefits and opportunities were wrong, rather I feel it is untoward that the same things are not offered or around now. Its not entitlement. 

 

It’s going to cause generational angst, though the fault is not the Boomers, but economical politics. 

[topdiesel]

13 hours ago, MIKA27 said:

I'm only 42, generation X, born in '76 but IMO, generations Y and onward, especially Millennial's onwards, are way too soft and expect in most, Not all, for handouts.

11 hours ago, Fuzz said:

Another seventy sixer here!

I am a 75er and it all went down hill after that.  The 76ers are so lazy and expect everything on a silver platter 

Life has always been hard.  Finding your path has always been hard.  If you are just starting out, live within your means and put money away (live on a budget and make it happen).  If you cannot do it where you live, move somewhere you can. Just because a place is cool, doesn't mean you can afford to live there. 

There are jobs all over the place, at least in the USA.  So many jobs that it is getting tough to find qualified candidates.  My definition of qualified is--people who actually want to learn and work and don't expect a top salary within the first 5 years simply because they earned a piece of paper from university.  If you don't like having an employer, then start a side gig and be your own boss.  It is not hard to try, but it might be hard to succeed.

There are plenty of unsuccessful boomers. 

Millennials will be the boomers before they know it.  Will the the successful ones give everything they earned to the newbies?  

 

[99call]

26 minutes ago, topdiesel said:

There are plenty of unsuccessful boomers. 

Millennials will be the boomers before they know it.  Will the the successful ones give everything they earned to the newbies?  

 

Completely agree with lots that you've said.  Apart from this, It's widely acknowledged that BB generation will unlikely be repeated any time soon. The unique post WW2 climate, meant they profited from a range of factors, that wont be repeated. Ha well!!  unless we have WW3 of course. 

I get your point though, i.e you make your own luck, and door open with hard work etc

[99call]

3 minutes ago, FatherOfPugs said:

I willingly help younger teachers learn tips and tricks that helped me through and if some day I get canned because a younger, brighter mind can teach the things I do better, so be it. And good on them for being that good.

Good on you, I think this thread has illustrated that this kind of thing still goes on in the US.   In the UK there are too many people scrapping over the same square inch of opportunity, and the knives are out.    Teaching is a joy, everyone should want to do it, and anyone who doesn't, and misleads the next generation,........well I hope that haunts them in retirement.