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Everything posted by ATGroom

  1. I measured the picture in the 1989 catalogue. The images used in this catalogue appear to be actual pictures of cigars with different lighting and flaws etc, not faked shapes like in some catalogues. It measures 142mm long. Compared to the 152mm Coronas Especiales next to it, both cigars have bands that are exactly 15mm wide, which indicates that the Coronas is not simply a larger image that is shrunken to fit the predefined size. I.e., if the Coronas was a 155mm cigar that had been reduced to be 142mm long on the page, it would have 14mm band rather than the 15mm of the correctly sized CE. (you can see this error in some other catalogues, where they have an image of a smaller cigar blown up to fit the dimensions of a bigger one or vice versa). No idea where the cigars for the catalogues came from or how they got their imagery, so it could still be a mistake somewhere along the line. Cuba was just as much Cuba in 1989, if not more so. But the implication is that they had a 142mm cigar with a Cohiba band in their possession when they were making the catalogue.
  2. The information chain is pretty standard. CCW got it from MRN. MRN got it from the 1989 Cubatabaco catalogue, which lists the size as 42 x 142. Not sure where MRN got the information about the packaging, as the catalogue doesn't list that. Given that most (all?) other Cohiba was available in packs at the time, it seems highly possible that it was also available in packs and he just wasn't aware of it. MRN states in his book that he hasn't seen the cigar, so he wouldn't be aware if the size was different to the catalogue. It is definitely possible that Cubatabaco got the size wrong in their catalogue. On the balance of probability, it seems more likely that some fakers got the size wrong on their fakes. Would need to see more than one example with a very solid history before coming to any firm conclusion, which is going to be tough to come by.
  3. Interesting. Neither have I. Romeo Factory, October 1992 is the stamp. They don't appear in any Cubatabaco or Habanos SA catalogue. SLR is a bit of a funny brand, as for most of its life (including when this box was made) it was only carried by a single British importer, so it kind of treads the line of "private commission." Like most of the other single market stuff, it generally isn't included in Cubatabaco catalogues. The brand does appear in the fairly complete Habanos SA catalogue from 2000, however, and the Ambassadores No.2 isn't in there. So my guess is it was discontinued before then.
  4. I had put the differences between FOH's (Pacific's) weights and CCW's (Habanos') down to someone making an error when the list changed format, or else maybe Pacific having a less up-to-date version of Habanos' list. It's also possible that Pacific observed that certain cigars were consistently below the Habanos weight and "corrected" their list. In any event, it's not the ideal weight. The intention is really just for them to be used by distributors when calculating tax / freight. At best it would be average weight, although I don't know how much time anybody really spent on calculating them.
  5. The weights Rob has listed on the forum I believe are the official weights provided to him by Pacific Cigar. When I first added weights to CCW I used the same source. It had a few odd things in it like different weights between Marevas and Petit Coronas and so on. I later was able to get the list of weights directly from Habanos, which is what CCW uses now. They seem to be generally 'better' in my view. Less odd things, anyway. The truth is neither can be considered 'accurate' to an individual cigar, as there is a lot of variance between overfilled, underfilled etc.
  6. Yeah, sorry guys, as you may have guessed Backerkit had a few technical issues with the project. The publisher assures me that it "should be fixed now, except for a very small number of people for whom it should be fixed imminently." If you're still having a problem or have any questions probably best to send it directly to them: Apologies and thanks for your patience.🙏
  7. For anybody who missed the Kickstarter, the retail pre-order is now available: Thanks all for your support!
  8. The information in 2014 was 200 copies given to friends, contributors, and retained by the author, 300 for invitation only pre-sale at $5,000, and then 1,500 copies at retail price of $10,000 available to the general public. The prices were supposed to be confidential at that time, and I only mention them as others have leaked them already. The book was a bargain at that price; firstly, because the amount of expense and effort that went into the research would make it impossible for anyone to ever produce anything close to it; secondly because the quality of the printing and cabinetry would probably mean he wasn't making much of a profit just on the production cost (it also included shipping, which would have been substantial as it was 85kg + packing materials); thirdly, because it included a free copy of any future editions, which he was planning every two years; and finally because given the scarcity and the demand, I doubt it would ever decrease in value or be difficult to find a buyer if you wanted to get rid of one. I would regard all the 2014 information as no longer relevant. It's not my place to give any update, but I imagine all those numbers will be different if it ever does materialise.
  9. Hey everybody, just wanted to say a huge thanks to everybody who has ordered - the level of support has been fantastic. The Kickstarter pre-order will end tomorrow. Obviously we are well passed all our basic goals, so this project will definitely happen. I expect to be sending the final draft to the printers sometime in the next few weeks. Obviously I am a bit biased, but I have read a lot of cigar books, and I am pretty proud of this one which I think will add a fair bit to the knowledge pool for the Cuban cigar community. Just for anybody still thinking of ordering: the amount that goes to print will be the amount that has been pre-ordered, plus a few extra that will be sold on the publisher's website afterward. So there will be some opportunity to get this after the Kickstarter, but obviously it's a pretty niche subject and the publisher won't want to take a lot of risk, so the number of extra books that gets printed will be fairly limited, and they will be more expensive than they are at present. So if this book is something you think you want, then I encourage you do order it now. Thanks again!
  10. Thanks for the concern, guys... I was asleep. Regular service has resumed. I assume it was just a brief outage for a server update or something.
  11. 1980 is based on catalogues. Actually they appear in a 1981 catalogue, but given the production issues in 1980 and then the industry restructure that followed, it seems unlikely any were produced later than 1980. There are plenty of post-Revolution boxes around, based on the bottom stamp. The seals on these would have been on the outer wooden box they came in. The one mentioned earlier in this thread with the seal is "Cuba being Cuba," but normally they wouldn't be expected to have the seal. Never seen any indication of the sizes or any of the cigars sold outside the seleccion box.
  12. Is incorrect. That caption is unchanged since Trevor's days, but I'm going to guess he meant "pre-1960s". Band has definitely been around since the 50s, likely significantly earlier. As far as I know, these were available until 1980. I'm only aware of them ever having been sold in Spain. As always, my view is based on catalogues, factory and store records, full and empty boxes listed in auctions etc - certainly it is not to a standard that will satisfy NSX.
  13. In answer to your original question about the main Festival though, yes, anyone can attend. Here is the booking page from 2020 to give you an idea of schedule, prices, how you go about booking it. A similar page will go up around October if the 2023 Festival is happening.
  14. Hi guys, just getting to this thread now... has been a busy day.😜 Thanks so much for your support all backers, obviously now 20 hours in and have long ago smashed the funding goal and many of the stretches...I am thrilled with the response this has gotten. Will be many more updates to come. PS: Yes, errors in the renders long corrected. I blame the graphics guys.😉
  15. The press release for the Conde Belicoso said that it was to be the final Edmundo Dantes. I interpret this as "marketing." Haven't heard anything about this. It may well be Upmann. But also I think plausible that it's the Carmen as the Zodiac release. It could also be Antique Humidor, Collection Habanos (it's certainly big enough), or "other". And for what it's worth, it could be an ED - it would hardly be unprecedented that they didn't precisely follow their naming conventions. Most of these are also on the HSA website implying that they are "confirmed." The "release years" is really a very meaningless concept, as it has nothing to do with when the cigars are rolled or when they are available. But, I think the flyer for all these will still say 2020 no matter when they come out, if only because that's the year that the distributors paid to have them for. Have never known them to "change" a year before regardless of when something actually comes to market. PPC's strategy is that they have one general for Asia Pacific and one for one of their specific countries every year. Ie, for 2020 it was the Cuaba APAC and the Harimau Malaysia. For 2021 it is the China Diplo Lideres and presumably one of the others on the list for APAC. 2019 was a catch up year with no new regionals except the Phoenicia which was special because they had an anniversary. My understanding is that 2022 is also going to be a catch up year, and the only new regional scheduled will be a Pacific 30th Anniversary cigar.
  16. First time I'm seeing this as well. Must have been within the last 6 months. I had heard the scuttlebutt that there were two groups within HSA marketing: one faction wanted to rename the Connoisseur No.1 to Connossieur to be in line with the others. The other faction wanted to admit that the Connoisseur A was an error and rename the others to Connoisseur. Looks like the Connossieur people won out, as the new band and ribbon have that spelling. Box is still Connoisseur though.
  17. My bad, 2020 are listed as well, I just failed to filter it out. Will still be 2020. Yes, a few interesting ones and plenty of the usual suspects... Sublimes, Montesco, Magnum 54, Duke etc... Huge year for Diplomaticos. The Montecristo one is interesting. My working theory is that it's an Edmundo Dantes and the database on the HSA website doesn't have that in the drop down so they put Monte instead. Of stuff that is confirmed and officially announced it almost always comes out... sometimes they make a lot less than they said they would, and sometimes it is five years late, but it eventually materialises in some form. The list that originated this thread though is just what someone jotted down at the marketing meeting. Has proved pretty accurate, but isn't anything that was ever officially confirmed so might be subject to change for various reasons. Some of those may never appear or appear in a revised form in some way. I would think that this 2021 stuff, being from the HSA website (along with the other unreleased 2020 stuff that's on there), is probably "officially announced" or close to.
  18. Those on the HSA mailing list will have received word this morning that they've updated the catalogue of cigars on their website for the first time since 2014. There are some long discontinued things still on there, and I was amused to see quite a few images lifted direct from CCW. It also lists a selection of previously unknown regionals, presumably the 2021 set. Diplomáticos El Emisario - Gordito (141 x 50) Diplomáticos Grandes - Laguito Especial (192 x 40) Diplomáticos Leal - Duke (140 x 54) Diplomáticos Líderes (China) - Sublimes (164 x 54) Diplomáticos Protocolo - Campanas (140 x 52) Diplomáticos Reserva Exclusiva (Phoenecia) - (150x54) El Rey del Mundo Templarios - Magnum 54 (120 x 54) Juan Lopez Adon - Montesco (130 x 55) Juan Lopez Dragones - Mágicos (135 x 52) Juan Lopez Gran Patagón - Edmundo (135 x 52) La Gloria Cubana Medaille D'Or Especial (Belux) - Laguito No. 2 (152 x 38) Montecristo Carmen - Paco (180 x 49) Por Larrañaga Fénix - 109 (184 x 50) Por Larrañaga Fuego del Cañón - Genios (140 x 52) Por Larrañaga Larrañaga 47 - Julieta No. 2 (148 x 47) Por Larrañaga Leones - Coronas Grandes (155 x 42) Por Larrañaga Prometidos - Duke (140 x 54) Punch Super Selection No.1 - Coronas Grandes (155 x 42) Saint Luis Rey La Cuna - Dalias (170 x 43) San Cristóbal de La Habana Bastiones - Petit Edmundo (110 x 52) San Cristóbal de La Habana Magnífico - Sublimes (164 x 54) San Cristóbal de La Habana Obispo - Robustos (124 x 48) Sancho Panza El Rey - Laguito No. 1 (192 x 38)
  19. If anybody is looking for a guide/fixer in Cuba, I can highly recommend my friend Amaury Jimenez. He's a Habanosommelier and very well connected in the industry. Can organise factory tours, farm visits, private classes, tastings with rum pairings, help with transport, and anything else you need. He speaks great English. Anybody who has visited Cuba knows that things can be a struggle, particularly if you don't have great Spanish. Having a cigar guy like Amaury to guide you is a fantastic way to learn about and experience tobacco culture in Cuba. Contact: [email protected]
  20. Upmann Coronas Major NOV 19 vs MAR 21. I know they have a general policy with packaging and band revamps to standardise spelling of Habana, hence the removal of "Made in Havana Cuba." They also generally remove references to the old owners, hence the "none genuine without this signature." And yes, double logos is now standard on revamped and new boxes going forward because of countries where more than 50% of the box needs to be covered by a sticker, so logo in the middle doesn't work. Same with the double Habanos stamp on the bottom.
  21. All news to me. Internal HSA docs I have list a discontinued Connossieur (note spelling) No.1 in SPB-S-n-n-n-10 as a duty free exclusive. (no indication of dates) SPB is Special Box which covers any remotely unusual box, including the ones with the convex sides like that. Google brings up two boxes with the festival bands on sale, also with PMU FEB 14 codes. Would be interesting to know if your box has festival bands or not @NSXCIGAR. The thread from 2017 also doesn't show the bands, so it's not totally clear if those boxes had the 2nd bands or not. Anyway, the story checks out. These were at one time a legit HSA product. I'll add them to CCW.
  22. The BHK 58 was developed and some samples were handed out to distributors, but I don't think those would have had bands. If they were making a real show of it, they might have come in a 2 cigar sample box, but this level of presentation doesn't usually come until things are a bit further along. Cardboard sleeves I would rate as highly highly unlikely as they wouldn't have done a custom print run for samples, and the style of presentation is too crappy for an ultra premium as release or VIP gift. As I understand it, the cigar was deemed "too strong" so the general release was cancelled. They were (are) going to release some in the BHK 10 Aniversario humidor, which has 25 of each of the 52, 54, 56, 58. Scheduled for 2020. Size is Laguito No.7, 58 x 178. So unless your buddy is someone very high up in HSA or a distributor then fake.
  23. In my observation, the "far dots", ie, two diagonal blue dots on the 2nd and 3rd row a long way from the head is on the large ring 48-54 sized band. The "close dots", ie four diagonal dots on the third thru sixth rows in close to the head is on the smaller gauge 38-47 band. Could be mistaken in this as sample size is quite small. Also, it is very frequent in Cohiba that a big band is trimmed and used on a smaller cigar. Normally they trim from the right side, which removes the UV batch code. Also in this case, often the far dots are now covered by the overlap of the band. So, that is very key if you are about to complain to a vendor about their cigars cigars being fake as they don't have blue dots - check if the band has been trimmed first as that removes or hides this test in many cases. The dots and code appear from 2017 onwards, and should not be visible in natural light. This image was sent to me recently - a microscope image of the band of an otherwise perfect seeming BHK box: Genuine should look like this: It's the first time I've ever heard of fakers replicating the microprinting, albeit not as small as the genuine, but still it shows that the producers of these fake bands are working with extremely sophisticated high quality printing equipment. If they can fake that then a few UV fluorescent dots should be trivial.
  24. That's the biggest problem with your theory: this statement is just factually untrue. Ten minutes searching for cigars in this catalogue on Mitchell's site returns: H.Upman Coronas Chicas sold April 2021 H.Upmann Gloras (dated pre-embargo) sold 2013 H.Upmann Pepitas (undated, as singles, name on bands) sold April 2021 Hoyo Coronas Chicas (two boxes dated 60s sold 2016) Punch Gustavos sold 2016 Partagas Londres boxes dated 1960s sold 2016 and October 2021 Romeo Coronas Chicas, 1 undated sold 2020, 1 dated 1968 sold 2014 Last time we litigated it, myself and others produced photos, auctions, active sales etc for these without a great deal of effort: RyJ Condes Hoyo Conquistadores Por Larranaga Cinco Vegas (1968): Hoyo Petit Cetros Por Lorranaga Coronas Inmensos from the 70s Por Larranaga Transparentes 1968 Los statos pensamientos 1960s PL Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No. 33 RyJ Dunhill Seleccion No. 127 HU Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No. 50 Bolivar Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No. 134 Hoyo de Monterrey Chateaux Beaugency La Corona Policromia (four different cigars) Punch Elmerosos RA Allones Grandes Punch Nectares 1, 3 and 6 RyJ geraldes/giraldes no. 4 Partagas Selection Rara No.4 H. Upmann Mirables La Corona Naturals La Corona Visible Inmensos 1978 Partagas Visible Inmensos San Luis Rey (whole brand) La Corona Regios dated 1962 La Corona Coronas two instances of Dunhill Flor de Cuba Seleccion Suprema Romeo y Julieta Coronas Chicas dated 1968 Maria Guerrero Cedros de Luxe No.2 Cifuentes Super Estupendos, which is one of the cigars MRN speculates was paper only Belinda Royal Coronations dated 1978 Romeo y Julieta Gran Slam ("As Chosen by Harry Waugh for Jacksons of Piccadilly" on the box) Punch Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No. 135 H.Upmann Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No.15 H.Upmann Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No.23 H.Upmann Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No.30 H.Upmann Dunhill Seleccion Suprema No.50 Bolivar Dunhill Seleccion Suprema no.134 (three instances) Bolivar Supremas Chuchills (box dated early 80s and British distributor repack pack dated 70s) H.Upmann De Luxe Perfectos box dated 1960s H.Upmann Panetelas box dated early-1980s Hoyo de Monterrey Belvederes box dated early-1980s I am very confident that any serious search of MO's auction history would return at least 200 "unknown" cigars, likely more. And this is mainly from a single auction site located in the UK that has 8 years of history. Just now I looked at the first Christies cigar auction catalogue (October 2008) I could find on Google, as they were doing cigar auctions long before Mitch. Among about 80 boxes of cigars sold were: Romeo y Julieta Caza Reales 1978 (from JJ Fox) H.Upmann Seymour de Luxe No.4 1963 H.Upmann Robert Lewis Vintage Selection No.4 (early 1980s) Saint Louis Rey Exquisitos 1998 (!) (None of these appear in any records I have) 99% of cigar smokers die with half a box remaining, which gets thrown out by their widow or pinched by their brother in law. Of the 1% that die with an overflowing walkin or locker at the club, the vast majority of these would be sold in private sales by stores or by a non-specialist estate auctioneer. All industry people I have every spoken to about it agree that before 1980, Havana basically functioned on an "order what you want and we'll make it" basis, so many, many cigars were produced and sold only in specific regions and stores etc. I don't know what the best Swiss or Spanish cigar auction site is, but I'm sure a lot of oddball stuff would turn up there as almost all the knowledge we have is very UK / Hong Kong specific. The data we have on what is "out there" is tiny, and still there are all these cigars that show up. They can't all be fake. And even if we do dismiss them all as misdated pre-Rev or fakes, I don't think "stores all over the world for decades produced catalogues for cigars that never existed" is the most reasonable answer to the missing cigars. One more wrinkle: it has Hoyo du Gourmet, which is normally thought to be released in 1974.
  25. I don't think we need to get into the whole palaver again @NSXCIGAR, but suffice to say, I continue to disagree with your position on this and reject most of the logic behind it. Almost all of the cigars in this list appear in other documents I've seen; factory records, tax lists, other catalogues etc. Some pre-Rev, some post-Rev. The main question I would have of the OP if someone has a Reddit account want wants to ask, is "how do they get to the 1969 date?" Doesn't seem to be dated anywhere in the pics. If it's possible to get a scan I would be very pleased to put it up on CCW with the other old catalogues.

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