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  1. I just don't think an appearance in a catalog is strong evidence based on how many cigars we know of that appeared in catalogs that were either discontinued or never existed. It's just too unreliable. So while we can discuss whether my standard is too high, I would have to argue yours is way too low. For me, photographic evidence of any kind is acceptable and the cigars must be reliably datable. The Hoyo Conquistadores and RyJ Condes weren't auctions at all. I would also accept first-hand accounts from a trusted credible party, for example if JJ Fox said they specifically recall a bo
  2. Well, obviously production numbers were lower in absolute terms but I really don't think anyone took cigar collecting seriously until at least well into the 1980s. I would expect most of what came and comes out of Dunhill London and JJ Fox was simply abandoned in lockers. CCs selling for even $100 each in the late 90s was unheard of. The first I know of that even crossed that was a box of Davidoff 80 Aniversario that went for $1,000 for the 10 box in the late 90s. It might have even been 2000 or 2001. Assembling a collection like MRN's beginning in the early to mid-1980s would have been cheap
  3. I would place this squarely in the custom or commissioned category. Again, date actually unknown but this would not have been a cigar available for public retail purchase, which I think is a good metric for whether or not it qualifies as something that should or would be included in MRN.
  4. The existence of custom or special cigars has always been around for the most part, but I don't think cigars like that ever had names or would ever have been considered "regular production" in any way. Something like the Uday Hussein Double Lanceros would fall under that category, but at best these are informal productions that are not cataloged or accounted for in any official way. I don't fault MRN in any way for omitting them (it would be virtually impossible to--more would be missed than included) and in most cases, they couldn't even be dated definitively to post-Rev. As you note, packagi
  5. Images for those? I would want to absolutely confirm year. Looks like these are from the mid-2000s when it was easier to make mistakes on year. The Hoyo Petit Cetros is absolutely impossible to date. It would have to be thrown out of consideration. As for the Dunhill selections, I'll have to go through them. Many of those are impossible to date with no images and I don't exactly trust MO's statement. And of course, many of those are singles and many also do appear in MRN.
  6. I know we have a disagreement on this but the problem for me is that if there were that many surely there would be some evidence of their existence. I've only ever found three--Hoyo Conquistadores, RyJ Condes and PL Cinco Vegas. That is so few compared to how many cigars you're referring to in the catalogs and documents that I'm convinced the correct approach is to assume a cigar not in MRN was never produced and to only amend that when actual evidence emerges. You might have me on the Dunhill selections although I haven't looked into that enough. Obviously, Dunhill was doing all so
  7. Wow, that's pretty lame with that one image from a mile away for those. 700 GBP paid too. Typical MO...
  8. Ok, now I'm confused--seller has all these but is unknown/incommunicado? No info whatsoever? If you're asking does this change anything I would say yes in terms of having those three sealed boxes be fake is pretty low. But again, with zero provenance, I'd be in the mindset of I'm buying for the box itself with the cigars being unsmokeable. The El Luchador might be interesting and the Cabanas is pretty uninteresting. Of course, the Hoyo Obsequios intact are rare. I would stand by my original opinion of maybe $200 for the Hoyo. $50 for the Cabanas and depending on the history of
  9. After re-reading that it seems even less than a handful were omitted by MRN--more like two or three cigars that have been confirmed to have actually existed that are not in MRN. It's much more likely that a cigar that's in MRN was never produced than vice versa, as MRN himself states many times. MRN clearly erred on the side of inclusion.
  10. Yes, this has come up before. I've identified only a handful of cigars that escaped MRN. There aren't as many as one would think--MRN's comprehensiveness was nothing short of extraordinary. I was going back and forth with Alex about that and his list was longer but I was able to eliminate many of those as pre-Rev, limited market machine-made or those with no evidence of post-Rev carryover. Hoyo Conquistadores are one as well as those RyJ Condes that popped up a few months ago.
  11. In the case of the Versaille(s) I don't know if anyone's ever seen one. Just confirming whether Alex is getting his info on this cigar from MRN or another source. Something like cello vs w/o cello is forgivable for MRN--just needs to be addressed. I think the "de" Dauphin is a typo since he does correctly have "du" for the rest.
  12. Good observation--I had missed that, and that also applies to the Opera and Versaille (correct spelling according to MRN--not Versailles @ATGroom) So it appears that all three may have been extremely rare, custom items or special production runs only, or possibly never existed. They may have been available for special order post-Rev but no one ever did. Clearly there's a difference in scarcity between the models available in 25s and those in 100s, although it seems all are at least fairly rare to very rare. However, the Gracielas and Jeanne D'Arc are still highly elusive despite the
  13. Depends on whether Havana House requests and pays for one. I doubt they will though since the added expense of plain packaging and the lack of visual appeal could be a serious obstacle in moving 60K+ sticks at a premium price.
  14. No, I haven't as well but the GdG do appear more common in the wild with a few more surviving sticks and intact boxes. Perhaps it was a more expensive model or again, sold in more markets. And I do agree, there appears to be a distinction between some of these models but all would fall into the category of rare. Certainly at best the GdG would be "fairly rare" with Obsequios and Perfectos certainly being "rare". Petit Hoyo appears rarer than those, and the others I've yet to see any evidence of suggesting at the very least they are "ultra rare". I will amend my original post in that
  15. I doubt anyone would think it was anything other than a pen. That said, unless you encounter tight draws on flights you could probably check it...

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