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I have read through many your posts piggy on humidification of humidors etc and every time I do it just leaves my head spinning. I have neither the time, patience or skill set to make one of these for myself so I was wondering what your opinion is of the THC Aristocrats Pros/Cons etc.

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Man, Ray, you write some great content. Thanks for sharing with us as you do. I'm still chewing on some of your thoughts there... good stuff.

Good luck in your hunt, Bund. I liked Keith's addition as a practical solution which may not work for you but may for others.

My friends that is why I do it! There is more to life than being a gun carrying, H SA bashing, tyrant hating protagonist! :blink:

I really appreciate the compliment mate, it is very flattering. The won respect from one's peers is gift I hold dear...

-Ray

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Hey Mate,

I just bought a portable A/C dehumidifier and closed of one of our bedrooms as basically a walkin humi until my Aristocrat arrives.

If that is not an option for you, both Walmart and Costco have wine fridges.

I haven't seen any that are thermoelectric in Ottawa from either of these vendors. What models are they selling in T.O. that are thermoelectric?

Another option I saw a while back when I asked this question ( I'm actually using a coolidor in an air conditioned room as well), someone posted this site for me that seems to have vinotemp stuff. I almost pulled the trigger on a 28 bottle myself, but alas.. I decided to buy more cigars and just freeze them first for now..

http://www.winecave.ca/Merchant2/merchant....ategory_Code=ES

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I find it hard to believe that anyone who is catching pools of water is at actually 65 RH. You might try drying the humidor out, with your cigars in there in boxes. Let it run for a week or so and collect all the water. As the water diminishes leave in a container that collects the runoff, perhaps add some beads if you prefer and stop this cycle of adding a ton of water just to remove a ton of water.

Can you elaborate more on this PF?

What I am doing is not adding additional water into the system, but recycling what collects at the bottom and using that water to rehydrate the beads in the wine cooler. I am not too clear on how to proceed further. Are you saying to remove all beads and oasis? Right now my digital hygro shows 65% RH and temp 65F, so not sure how the humidification is maintained.

I would realy like to figure the wine cooler to be most effective as possible, so clarification would be welcomed.

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Can you elaborate more on this PF?

What I am doing is not adding additional water into the system, but recycling what collects at the bottom and using that water to rehydrate the beads in the wine cooler. I am not too clear on how to proceed further. Are you saying to remove all beads and oasis? Right now my digital hygro shows 65% RH and temp 65F, so not sure how the humidification is maintained.

I would realy like to figure the wine cooler to be most effective as possible, so clarification would be welcomed.

A little busy to elaborate today mate but I will if this does not cover it.

I have no proof so don't wait up nights! My comment is intuitive and based on empirical findings of my own. In a nutshell I am saying if your beads supply 65 RH equilibrium in a saturated but "physically dry" state, your system should dry to say 45 RH while the cooler is running and then re-saturate to say 65 while at rest all without creating pools of water. The actual amount of water to create saturation to 65 RH from 45 RH should not equal a "pool of water." I could likely find tables to calculate how much water, in molecules, ounces, grams etc. that one would use to make up the "molecules" necessary but I am not going to! You know what works for you and I don't, I am just taking an educated guess that something is awry in your humidor. It just intuitive... and like I said mate, I am only guessing, that the amount of molecules necessary to take a 3 cuft (guess) space form 45 to 65 RH does not equal "pools!"

Let me know if this makes sense. You can call me Ray, by the way, we have been introduced!!! :D

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You can learn a lot by using one a while. Ask my friend Dennis. I convinced him to get one and he is crazy with it.

Crazy???? I've gone REAL crazy. :D The data logger is the way to go. I know what's going on in the humidor(s). No guesswork. It's a 'myth buster' so-to-speak.

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Crazy???? I've gone REAL crazy. :D The data logger is the way to go. I know what's going on in the humidor(s). No guesswork. It's a 'myth buster' so-to-speak.

Speak of the devil!!! Fellow mythbuster! :)

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Okay so I did a little scraping around for info and if I did my homework right this is how it works out. Lets measure on the high side. More temperature and more humidity equals more water in the air, absolute humidity.

At approx. 20 Deg. C (about 68 Deg. F) there is approximately 12 grams of water per cubic meter of air. Going from memory, what is there, 28-29 grams/oz? That means the total mass of water airborne in your humidor at 68 deg. F and 70 RH is somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 an oz. of water.... (assuming that your wine cooler is cubic meter in volume).

Not much, and a hellofa lot less than a pool!

This is what I was thinking and basing my assessment from, not having the numbers at my fingertips. -Piggy

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So, what does one do when the beads dry out (turn white), the water has condensed into the bottom dish from the fan, and the RH starts to drop to 59-60%? Just leave it be?

First you need to know what your humidity really is! I can't hazard a guess at that, so I use certified instruments. There are various ways to test hygrometers but you need to test at 65 RH if that is what you think you like for your cigars. Hygrometer accuracy is not linear. Just because it read 82 when at 75 does not mean that you deduct 7 to get the right number at 65.

If your humidor is running all the time, you just discovered why I don't use Pelier device humidors. This is a battle that you can't easily win. It does not matter how much water you put into the system the cooler will strip it at an exponential rate. I realize that is preaching and not helpful, so I will dispense with the bull and try to get to a point.

I think, I say think mind your because I am again speculating that you hygrometer is way off or way too slow, one or both and is not doing you much good. What you do with it is your business but relying on it for accurate data is probably not a good idea. If you have a mate that has a more accurate or stable system that is at 65 you might run it over to his pad and see what yours reads against a stable humidor at 65.

Run some tests. Lets see what you hygrometer says the actual resting humidity is in your box. Unplug it! Leave everything else alone. Remove all loose cigars because they will pick up ambient excessive moisture the fastest and your wrappers on those cigar will likely get a little loose. If your hygrometer is correct I am guessing that you humidity is gonna' spike big time. That's good, and means that I am likely right and you have way too much water supply in the box.

Dry out your beads per instructions and hydrate them per instructions to get them to their desired RH again. In the mean time take them all out, leave the box unplugged and lets see how much residual water you have in there. If the cigars are new, meaning that you have not had them long, over a year, then I am guessing that you have them over-humidified and so did the vendor. Lets see!

Again, what happened? What is your hygrometer saying? Did you get it tested against a known or better known instrument?

What comes next depends on what you have found out. Leaving the beads out, drying out the box, adding more water???? All depends on what you find. My guess is that you will find everything too moist.

One other little test while you are testing your box. All this time, assuming that it is not too humid in your neck of the woods yet. Leave a test cigar out to dry. No dry box... Clip it first and let it really dry out. After about two weeks of what you think has ruined your cigar, smoke it. This is what dry(er) cigars taste like and I think you might really see the difference.

Lastly; many of you need circulation in your humidors. Circulation makes the box more uniform and allows the changes to be registered by slower equipment faster. Imagine if you expected a one room air conditioner to cool a whole house from one room. You get a cold dry room and a warm house. This is in effect what you are doing.

Now I am gonna' feel really cheesy here because I am gonna' spill some beans of my own. This thread has caused me to believe that some could really use some help in this department. While I am always happy to lend a helping hand on this board without compensation beyond a thank you, I am a week or so away form introducing a line of bead holding circulatory products for humidors... I want to post a pic but that would ruin the surprise and I have to check with Rob about soliciting members for a test run.

I put this in italics because I have never been here to think about peddling anything. I just happen to think there is a niche in this market and I think my simple product has merit, but I gotta' talk it over with Rob first.

Whether you wait for me or go on your own, I think you need circulation in you boxes. One of my humidors, a small one is running as I type and its 80mm fan, plus its 40mm humidifier fan are running and I can hear them clearly 8 ft away, through the box!

For the sake of interest I have posted a picture of one of my humidors with an accessory hygrometer that I have to giver you an idea. This is a $10 piece. I can't open the door because my controller will change imediately and you would not see what it is really like in there, so hopefully you can see through the glass.

post-79-1306690192.jpg

You can see my humidor is at 65.X. The little plastic "tampon" gizmo is a datalogger. You see I test everything... all the time!!! The plastic stand up hygro is the test subject and it is reading 55 RH. My data logger does not lie and neither does my controller so this thingy is off by -10 RH at 65 RH. My system cycles on and of, both the cooler and the humidifier, day in and day out and this little bugger never changes much. It changes when I take it out and leave it out for 8 hours but inside my humidor, if I depended upon it for advice. I WOULD BE KILLING MY SMOKING EXPERIENCE WITH TOO MOIST A CIGAR.

Best of luck mates. -Ray

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For the sake of the circulation argument I went looking for a pic of the fan construction stage of one of my boxes.

I have tested circulation verses no circulation in humidors. I am not just out spouting BS. I have spent a lot of time studying this stuff real time with my own cigars, test instruments and dataloggers. Is there more than one way to skin a cat? Sure, but I don't get to preaching unless I know a little about what I am talking about. I have spent countless hours testing fan speed, cfm, cooler temperature, cycle duration, etc! Those two fans are for different purposes and run at different times. I am not getting into why they are different, here.

I have even tested if they work better running in different directions!!! -LOL

I believe in circulation. It works in your car, your home, in your body and in your humidor. -Piggy

post-79-1306691228.jpg

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This thread has caused me to believe that some could really use some help in this department.

Ha, ha, ha. This is an understatement if I every heard one. Well...in my case anyway. This is just over my head at this time.

How does the drop in temperature affect the RH? From you post I gather that if the running cooler is at 65/65, when you turn it off and the temp rises to 80 F, let's say, the RH could rise. That would mean the 65/65 was actually misleading?

Thanks Ray.

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Ha, ha, ha. This is an understatement if I every heard one. Well...in my case anyway. This is just over my head at this time.

How does the drop in temperature affect the RH? From you post I gather that if the running cooler is at 65/65, when you turn it off and the temp rises to 80 F, let's say, the RH could rise. That would mean the 65/65 was actually misleading?

Thanks Ray.

Caught me in the middle of a project again... Lady Piggys new master bedroom! But I'll make it quick.

Take sealed environment. Actual water content (g/meter3) remains constant. Hygrometer reads 60 RH at 25 C. Drop the temp to 20 C and you got 80 RH. While this may not be exact, it is close. Remember relative humidity is relative to the saturation point of air at a given temp. The actual amount of water in the system stayed constant but your readings changed because you changed a variable... temperature for instance. This is true until you hit the dew point. At that point the water colloids (for lack of a better term), condenses and forms rain.

Same water, temp goes down RH goes up. Same water, temp goes up RH goes down. Hot air holds more water. -R

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Thank you for your very involved posts Ray. I am learning a great deal. Once, months ago, the power went out in the middle of the night. The RH in my vinotemp skyrocketed to 80%+, because the temp inside got to 80F +. It's so darn hot here all the time (Hawaii) that my Vino has to work hard to keep the temp at 68F. I thought that when the temp goes up, RH goes up, like what happened with my vinotemp when the power went out?

The humidity here is about 71% right now, and the temp is around 84F. Even without any beads in my desktop humidor, it stays around 70% and 82F. I suppose if I didn't worry about beetles, I would just leave the Vinotemp unplugged and saturate the beads accordingly to keep the RH at 65%.

If you wouldn't mind clarifying on the Temp vs. RH question, I would greatly appreciate it. Just a little confused because of what happened to my humi when the power went out.

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Thank you for your very involved posts Ray. I am learning a great deal. Once, months ago, the power went out in the middle of the night. The RH in my vinotemp skyrocketed to 80%+, because the temp inside got to 80F +. It's so darn hot here all the time (Hawaii) that my Vino has to work hard to keep the temp at 68F. I thought that when the temp goes up, RH goes up, like what happened with my vinotemp when the power went out?

The humidity here is about 71% right now, and the temp is around 84F. Even without any beads in my desktop humidor, it stays around 70% and 82F. I suppose if I didn't worry about beetles, I would just leave the Vinotemp unplugged and saturate the beads accordingly to keep the RH at 65%.

If you wouldn't mind clarifying on the Temp vs. RH question, I would greatly appreciate it. Just a little confused because of what happened to my humi when the power went out.

I have the feeling my next reply is gonna' be a lengthy one. Takin' my Ma-in-law downtown to have some tests done for a clinical trial today so it might be a day or so before I get back to this one... Okay? -R

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I have a 34 bottle vinotemp (compressor model) and have been following this tread closely. I have had this unit since December and have had no problems. The temp has been cool so it hasn't been a problem. I lightly sprayed my beads on setup and temp and humidity seems fine. I have been running at 67 deg and 67 humidity. I haven't had any condensation issues.

I live in Sacramento, Calif and the temps will soon get over 100 degrees outside and the mid 80's in my house. I bought this compresser unit thinking it will help me keep my temp down. I know that when the compressor comes on, my humidity drops and this could be a problem for me this summer.

Piggy - What do think about a Electronic temp control unit for this? My thoughts are that I could cycle the compressor for short time frames and have greater control of the temp. Wouldn't this help with humidity spikes? I also plan to install fans in this unit.

I would appreciate any advice

Thanks,

-Doug

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I think that PF should design and market a 50 box hassel free humidor with all the thingmajigs, whtchamacallits and other gizmos and sell them.

My fee for coming up with the idea would be getting one for free :hole:

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Man, I don't know where to start!

With a handle like invest and prosper I will try the financial approach.

I am sure you are familiar with bonds and other interest based instruments.

Lets say today you get a rate sheet from a mortgage banker and they are willing to lend money today at 5% at par. You look up and down the sheet and see subpar and over par pricing to see if you can fit your client in there somewhere. You look up the sheet and you see that 6% will pay you a 500 basis point premium and you look down and see that in order to get 4% you need to pay 500 basis point cost.

You chose to sell your customer the 4.5 rate at a wholesale cost to you at 250 BP's. What did the bank think about your deal? They did not care whether you gave him 6 or 4 or 4.5 percent.... all they cared about is that you lent their money! Why? Because according to their yield algorithm it is all the same to them from a profit perspective. You pay them now up front (prepaid interest), or they pay you now up front (premium yield), and they get paid back over time. They see the transaction as a profitable one regardless.

What the **** does this have to do with humidors? Well the lending institution is your humidor. The rate and premium are relative to each other just like RH and temperature are to each other. The overall profit in the transaction from the lenders perspective is the same. It is just a little money shuffling up front as far as they are concerned. The relationship of temperature to RH is set by definition, just as the yield/rate relationship is set by the bank. What you choose is up to you. You want a colder cigar you set the temp down. You want a wetter cigar you set the humidity up.

I hope that this analogy helps you to understand. There is a relationship to water vapor in your system and temperature just like there is a relationship to interest rate and prepaid interest or premium yield. Get it? The bank is concerned with profit, and you are concerned with relative humidity at a given temperature. The relationship is just a tool you use to get you there.

Some advice. You need to know where you are going with your storage and why. If you don't; why be picky about it. It seems simple, but you need to have a belief system in place to direct your approach. I believe that you mentioned somewhere that a beetle blight was a concern of yours. That is certainly a place to start. Since I can't read your mind I will instead speak mine!

What I want is a consistent smoking experience. My experience must be good or great and I will do everything in my power to make it that way. I want to eliminate the possibility of "me" ruining my smoking experience. This is how I think and what drives me to work on storage solutions for cigars. You see if I get a moist cigar, my experience tells me I won't enjoy it, or at least I won't enjoy it as much as I would if it were a properly conditioned cigar (to my taste). This is all I am about!

What are you about? What are you trying to achieve?

Back to your humidor. Why does you humidor go to 80/80 when the power goes out. I think you have added 2+2 and got 15! Why? Because you are being confused by bad data and making incorrect correlations. Why? Because you have too much damn water in your humidor!!! (MHO) AND, (likely) instruments which are either not accurate or low resolution, or have a slow sample rate.

Why do you have bad data? Because you have not only water vapor in your humidor, but you have a water supply in your humidor beyond what is necessary to maintain 65 RH at rest. That's why! You think that because your humidity went up in 'your' humidor, it is because the temp went up. That is not the way it works. You are not wrong because I say so, you are wrong because you have confused/added variables and distorted the results. You got what you got because you sprayed your humidor inside with a fire hose (rhetorically). You got what you got because you have too much water in there, in various forms.

The forms are your beads, your cigars, your boxes, your permeable shelves and the free air in the humidor. This is why I suggested finding a datum. What do I mean? I mean, turn on the room AC to say 75. This won't (hopefully) break the bank or kill your cigars. It will also give you a stable environment to work with. It might also dry out house out a little. Unplug the humidor. Remove everything but the cigars. Let it set for say 48 hours and tell me what your hygrometer says.

Here is your problem in a nutshell. You have a pendulum cycle in your box. Remember, as air cools it holds less water. You have a means to continue to feed the box water because you supply it in some form. The water evaporates and raises your RH. You cool the box and the temp falls, at the same time your cooler strips water via the process of condensation. You collect the condensation; think your cigars are gonna' dry out and put it all back.

The cycle starts all over again!

I think (there is that word again) that you get so much water out, cause you have put so much in. That is why I say let it dry out a bit. You have to get to a point where you know how much water is in the system that is not being driven by other forces, a refrigerator and a humidifier. I want to see you get stabilized there first. That is where to start before you work on other problems.

When you find out that you have 80RH @ 80 Deg. when everything is out of there except your cigars, well, you might believe me that you are over humidifying your cigars.

I think a 65 degree cigar at 65RH is too wet. That is just my opinion and you need to run these tests for yourself to see what you like. What I like does not really matter.

Need more date... I'll be around. -R

Oh, if you really want to talk humidors, drop me your phone number at my email in my profile and I'll see what I can do about calling you.

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I think that PF should design and market a 50 box hassel free humidor with all the thingmajigs, whtchamacallits and other gizmos and sell them.

My fee for coming up with the idea would be getting one for free :D

Your a day late... and a humidor short mate!!! :2thumbs:

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I have a 34 bottle vinotemp (compressor model) and have been following this tread closely. I have had this unit since December and have had no problems. The temp has been cool so it hasn't been a problem. I lightly sprayed my beads on setup and temp and humidity seems fine. I have been running at 67 deg and 67 humidity. I haven't had any condensation issues.

I live in Sacramento, Calif and the temps will soon get over 100 degrees outside and the mid 80's in my house. I bought this compresser unit thinking it will help me keep my temp down. I know that when the compressor comes on, my humidity drops and this could be a problem for me this summer.

Piggy - What do think about a Electronic temp control unit for this? My thoughts are that I could cycle the compressor for short time frames and have greater control of the temp. Wouldn't this help with humidity spikes? I also plan to install fans in this unit.

I would appreciate any advice

Thanks,

-Doug

Your next Doug.

Real quick. You did right by buying the compressor cooler (MHO). These cool faster but get really effin' cold. I have some ideas for you that will likely really help.

Amigo I have left one of my humidors in my shop at 100+ degrees with it stacked with 40 to 50 boxes of cigars. If we modestly said that the cigars were 150/box times 45 boxes we are talking almost 7K worth of cigars. I would not risk that on faith alone.

One of these compressor boxes will combat 100 degree temperature. They will cycle like crazy and without active humidification they will likely dry out but we can talk more on that later.

Things to do. Don't let the box get too cold. I keep mine around 67 to 70 degrees. Don't put unprotected cigars in there. Keep them all boxed. Don't let the box get to moist to begin with because taking the water out is harder than getting it in.

All for now mate. Best of luck on the project. -Piggy

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Here is your problem in a nutshell. You have a pendulum cycle in your box. Remember, as air cools it holds less water. You have a means to continue to feed the box water because you supply it in some form. The water evaporates and raises your RH. You cool the box and the temp falls, at the same time your cooler strips water via the process of condensation. You collect the condensation; think your cigars are gonna' dry out and put it all back.

Thank you for your reply, Ray. The quote above seems to go against what you said previously (all others constant, 60%RH at 25C, 80% RH at 20C). My understanding had always been that as air cools, humidity goes down, and that seems to align with your quote above. However, in your previous posts you were saying that as air cools, humidity rises. I couldn't wrap my head around that (Antarctica is the largest desert on earth, humidity-wise, because it's so darn cold). I think we are on the same page now :2thumbs:

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Thank you for your reply, Ray. The quote above seems to go against what you said previously (all others constant, 60%RH at 25C, 80% RH at 20C). My understanding had always been that as air cools, humidity goes down, and that seems to align with your quote above. However, in your previous posts you were saying that as air cools, humidity rises. I couldn't wrap my head around that (Antarctica is the largest desert on earth, humidity-wise, because it's so darn cold). I think we are on the same page now :D

Okay, now I understand why you're confused, or were. In a sealed environment, where there is no source for additional water, as the air cools, the relative humidity rises because cooler air holds less water. The amount of water in the air at 50 deg. @ 100 RH and the amount of water in the air at 100 deg. @ 100 RH is different. The RH is the same, but because of the temperature the amount of water in the air is different. That is why absolute (what you may be calling actual) humidity and relative humidity are not the same things.

You are looking at relative humidity the wrong way. You are comparing RH at one temp to RH at another temp. My fault probably; this is where I lost you. I use water in the air to represent absolute humidity. I use RH to only represent RH. In the example above the water in the sample would be the same (the absolute humidity) but the RH is different. That is what is shaking you. Like you said, the poles are dry. Why, because cold 0 deg. F air at 100 RH still means very little water in g/m3 (low absolute humidity).

Yes, in colder air absolute humidity goes down. In the same instance your hygrometer that measures Relative Humidity, not absolute humidity will show an increase; RH goes up. The confusion lies between those using absolute humidity and Relative Humidity interchangeably.

Actual humidity and Relative Humidity are not the same. Actual humidity is measured in g/m3 (or similar volume) and relative humidity is a definition represented by an instrument that measures it.

-Ray

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