Is the global economy out of bullets?

[Colt45]

But of course it is political, because it is based on political decisions. (Or I didn't get the comment quite well.)

I think it's time to go to bed at 2:30am after drinking a big bottle of port and leftovers of zacapa.

My smart aleck post was not directed at anyone - Rob stated initially that this was not to be a political topic, but obviously,

as is usually the case, we can't help ourselves and these thing tend to go head south.

[El Presidente]

That video was I'm just going to say it a pile of garbage. This guy was expressing his belief and doing a poor job at trying to make an illustration that has a neutral fact based feeling.

It's like watching a group of tuna fighting about how to control and kill all the sharks in the ocean. Big business are not all greedy criminals. That's like saying everyone who gets a welfare check buys crack with it. People ***** about paying a few thousand a year to taxes but those sharks are bleeding out millions hell billions a year. Where does that money go?

This is all UNcontrolled chaos. That is just nature. You can't control it. you will cause more harm than good, it's just like the ecosystem in the ocean, it will play a way out from the bacteria up.

We all have a time and if this is the time to go broke then do it with dignity, let go of the past, embrace failure because there will be nowhere to go at that point but up.

Our egos will destroy us all in the end

R

Like any article/vid/thought on any subject there are generally threads of truth. That goes for all sides of the economic spectrum belief system.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere soon.

Like a great dog however it needs boundaries and discipline. Properly focused , trained, and constantly drilled/corrected it will perform admirably for its owner.

Even the best of dogs left to their own devices will push the boundaries and get themselves (and their owner) into trouble. Trying to correct the behaviour when the dog is in adulthood is a hell of a lot of work compared to clear guidelines, training and input in its youth.

The capitalist system is just a dog. Well trained, properly focused It should serve the entreprenuer/worker and serve it well for a long time.

Unfortunately, you have bad dog owners and good dog owners.

Regulators are there to control and discipline the owners so the dog/capitalism can fully develop its potential for the benefit of all. Pay fair taxes, contribute to a community, provide real jobs/opportunity and growth.

But what happens when the regulators are incompetent, corrupt or both? The bad owners do as they please and their dogs gets out of control growing bolder and more dangerous year in year out checked by no-one. They form packs and control a street and then a neighbourhood (Finance).

They do as they please causing havoc along the way.

In the end they need to be put down, the regulators replaced, the owners diciplined and you start again with a new dog constantly trained to serve the people (entrepreneur/workers).

it is not the end of the world. The shenannigans of the 90's and 2000's should be seen as a new beginning for capitalism but it will require a new breed of regulator/politician on a global scale as well as a new mindset of the general populace for self reliance/personal responsibility and commitment to developing social capital (give back) as well as developing personal capital.

i suspect we will need to hit rock bottom first which could be a decade away.

Just my 2 cents.

[Chicago]

Like any article/vid/thought on any subject there are generally threads of truth. That goes for all sides of the economic spectrum belief system.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere soon.

Like a great dog however it needs boundaries and discipline. Properly focused , trained, and constantly drilled/corrected it will perform admirably for its owner.

Even the best of dogs left to their own devices will push the boundaries and get themselves (and their owner) into trouble. Trying to correct the behaviour when the dog is in adulthood is a hell of a lot of work compared to clear guidelines, training and input in its youth.

The capitalist system is just a dog. Well trained, properly focused It should serve the entreprenuer/worker and serve it well for a long time.

Unfortunately, you have bad dog owners and good dog owners.

Regulators are there to control and discipline the owners so the dog/capitalism can fully develop its potential for the benefit of all. Pay fair taxes, contribute to a community, provide real jobs/opportunity and growth.

But what happens when the regulators are incompetent, corrupt or both? The bad owners do as they please and their dogs gets out of control growing bolder and more dangerous year in year out checked by no-one. They form packs and control a street and then a neighbourhood (Finance).

They do as they please causing havoc along the way.

In the end they need to be put down, the regulators replaced, the owners diciplined and you start again with a new dog constantly trained to serve the people (entrepreneur/workers).

it is not the end of the world. The shenannigans of the 90's and 2000's should be seen as a new beginning for capitalism but it will require a new breed of regulator/politician on a global scale as well as a new mindset of the general populace for self reliance/personal responsibility and commitment to developing social capital (give back) as well as developing personal capital.

i suspect we will need to hit rock bottom first which could be a decade away.

Just my 2 cents.

Well said.

[Guest rob]

[mykeuva]

Yes, it's not political.......

That's why I'm staying away, mostly.

I will say though, that reading through this thread, 2 quotes come to mind:

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

and

"(In democracies), we get the governments we deserve."

[PigFish]

Oh Rob (RA)... regarding bullets, don't know about the economy but I have a ton left!!!

[cellinisart]

Like any article/vid/thought on any subject there are generally threads of truth. That goes for all sides of the economic spectrum belief system.

Capitalism isn't going anywhere soon.

Like a great dog however it needs boundaries and discipline. Properly focused , trained, and constantly drilled/corrected it will perform admirably for its owner.

Even the best of dogs left to their own devices will push the boundaries and get themselves (and their owner) into trouble. Trying to correct the behaviour when the dog is in adulthood is a hell of a lot of work compared to clear guidelines, training and input in its youth.

The capitalist system is just a dog. Well trained, properly focused It should serve the entreprenuer/worker and serve it well for a long time.

Unfortunately, you have bad dog owners and good dog owners.

Regulators are there to control and discipline the owners so the dog/capitalism can fully develop its potential for the benefit of all. Pay fair taxes, contribute to a community, provide real jobs/opportunity and growth.

But what happens when the regulators are incompetent, corrupt or both? The bad owners do as they please and their dogs gets out of control growing bolder and more dangerous year in year out checked by no-one. They form packs and control a street and then a neighbourhood (Finance).

They do as they please causing havoc along the way.

In the end they need to be put down, the regulators replaced, the owners diciplined and you start again with a new dog constantly trained to serve the people (entrepreneur/workers).

it is not the end of the world. The shenannigans of the 90's and 2000's should be seen as a new beginning for capitalism but it will require a new breed of regulator/politician on a global scale as well as a new mindset of the general populace for self reliance/personal responsibility and commitment to developing social capital (give back) as well as developing personal capital.

i suspect we will need to hit rock bottom first which could be a decade away.

Just my 2 cents.

capitalism is a system, a regulator can be just one man. The regulator will ALWAYS be the most dangerous one of all mate. Look back in history of regulators, ends bad every time.

[danclough]

Dunno how long Fox news will last by the way,looks like Murdochs' chickens are coming home to roost.

Is it all the fault of "illegals" is it?

Rubbish,and that's from a working man.

How does a healthcare system equate to Stalinist mass murder.

So that means conservatism is the same as Hitler?

If you think we are living in socialist times,you are mistaken.

1% of humanity has the same wealth as 95% of the rest,sounds like an extreme form of capitalism to me.

Wealth has, and always will, display a power law distribution. Mandelbrot and all that.

[mazolaman]

Heartily agree Mr President,seems a pretty good analogy.

So now the right and left have had their shout......

It looks like the US is being downgraded in it's credit rating.

There is also talk of further quantitative easing,Zimbabwe here we come.

Italy is hoping to sell bonds to the ECB to raise funds.So the Germans will end up digging Italy out,as well as Greece.

Much chit chat of another recession here.

So the answer to the question,I think,is yes.

[El Presidente]

capitalism is a system, a regulator can be just one man. The regulator will ALWAYS be the most dangerous one of all mate. Look back in history of regulators, ends bad every time.

And so the connundrum. Unfettered Capitalism doesn't work. Regulated Capitalism runs only as well as the integrity and ability fo the regulator/s

The only solution I can see is a truely independent regulating body, completely independent of the political cycle. Three year contracts with set targets:

3.5% + Economic Growth (Annual)

5% Unemployment

- 3 % Inflation

40% Public Debt as a % of GDP

Social benchmarks ( median income/poverty etc.)

Throw in a few others and and a % +/- margin of error.

Throw in break clauses so they can be turfed out if not performing.

[joeypots]

The Freidman video is old, though he says the same things today. There is a lot of mythology in political belief. The Einstein thing is funny. As if he thought in a vacuum. The atom bomb was created by the US government. Where did Ferme get the resources to start the first critical mass? The nuclear navy? Any one heard of Nokia? Hyundai? The US National Institution of Health? The myth of the lone wolf genius causes people to believe, falsely, that all progress is made independent of government.

Capitalism works, no question. Unbridled, all the capitol winds up in a very few hands. We are seeing that in the US right now. 1% hold 40% of the wealth and make 25 % of the income. TR and the antitrust act that broke up Standard Oil is the simplest and best example of why we regulate. The lack of a second stimulus, economists say, prolonged the great depression until the stimulus of WWII brought back the industrial base.

[tdlfoto]

though i understand the dog and owner analogy, i think it misses some of the key dynamics between those in control of the economy, and the economy. a dog can't be used as a conduit to accumulate wealth, power, and influence over other dogs and dog owners. as for truly independent regulators, well, it's a great idea but like the IMF before it...also subject to manipulation by the very system it pretends to administer equitably.

i don't mean to be a pain prez, i understand you run a business in a good way...i also run a business. but i dont consider myself a pure capitalist...i wont make slaves of employees (ie "interns") who flock to me with offers of free labour, i won't gouge clients, and i dont aspire to run down/buy up every other photo studio in town so all the profits will be mine! mine!! mine!!!....all things a capitalist, if he abides by the purest tenants of capitalism, would do. i can't imagine how i'd sleep at night if i made 50, 100, or 200X the salary of my staff. I don't think you could either...right Lisa?! lol

on a somewhat related note, here's an article i just found through my twitter feed http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/20118365938756720.html

[jjdolphin]

People tend to complicate things more than they should.

Just because you are a gun owner it does not mean that by definition you have to go out on a killing spree.

Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned. Capital is owned privately, and the owner of the capital invests to generate profit. Workers receive wages when they work for the capitalist.

That is it. That is pure capitalism. Now how you govern yourself as a capitalist, that is another story. Being a capitalist by definition doesn’t mean you exploit employees, employ slaves, it doesn’t mean you give minimum wage, no sick days, no vacation. It doesn’t mean that you have to provide that either. It is your money, your capital; you do with it what you please. The person you are and the moral compass you have, will determine the capitalist you will be.

The same applies to any other system, group or organization.

It boils down to the individual. The healthier the individual, the better of the collective. If you are open minded, have empathy and conduct yourself with morals, it does not matter what the system is.

'tdlfoto' you seem to have your priorities straight, which is great to hear. Unfortunately the moral fiber of today’s society is something less than adequate.

P.S I love these non-political threads the "Prez" starts

[PigFish]

People tend to complicate things more than they should.

Just because you are a gun owner it does not mean that by definition you have to go out on a killing spree.

Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned. Capital is owned privately, and the owner of the capital invests to generate profit. Workers receive wages when they work for the capitalist.

That is it. That is pure capitalism. Now how you govern yourself as a capitalist, that is another story. Being a capitalist by definition doesn’t mean you exploit employees, employ slaves, it doesn’t mean you give minimum wage, no sick days, no vacation. It doesn’t mean that you have to provide that either. It is your money, your capital; you do with it what you please. The person you are and the moral compass you have, will determine the capitalist you will be.

The same applies to any other system, group or organization.

It boils down to the individual. The healthier the individual, the better of the collective. If you are open minded, have empathy and conduct yourself with morals, it does not matter what the system is.

'tdlfoto' you seem to have your priorities straight, which is great to hear. Unfortunately the moral fiber of today’s society is something less than adequate.

P.S I love these non-political threads the "Prez" starts

I think this is accurate and would like to put it in my own language:

We have people confusing human traits with economic traits yet again.

While I know really nothing about the photo studio business I can only imagine that its basics are like other business. Simply put, ones provide a product that people are willing to pay for. When you have more work than you can accomplish yourself you hire help. Photo studio owners are therefore capitalists! While one can rail against the process all one like, and point out its imperfections, which it certainly may have, it is not fair to say that it does not work. Capitalism does work. The member owned photo studio business is a fine example.

Does the fact that the photo studio owner is fair to his employees make him somehow not a capitalist? I think that is an incorrect assumption made by those who simply wish to topple capitalism as a means to promote freedom. They use the fact that some people are better at making money than others, live better than others, are perhaps smarter than others, take better pictures than others... as a means by which to besmirch them as somehow morally corrupt. Is the photo studio owner morally corrupt because he may still be in business and the photo studio across town in failing? Is the photo studio owner morally corrupt because a child starves the next county or the next country? Is the success of one man, the condemnation of that same man?

Capitalism is a tool to segregate, stratify and cause unrest in groups of people that simply don't understand it by those who do understand it but wish to incite those who are ignorant to do their bidding, fighting and dying. It is not easy to admit that one has been duped by believing that capitalism is not a political process by those who wish to include it in a political argument. Capitalism supports many forms of government, free States as well as socialist States as well as communist, or other tyrannical States. Capitalism works as well for the communist Chinese as it does for anyone else. Capitalism is an economic process, not a political process. It is however the only economic process that fosters freedom and free states. That is precisely why it is derided!

How about all the comments made about gouging clients, abusing employees etcetera, etcetera. One would think by those comments that those are CAPITALIST traits. My friends, here is where the confusion lies. THOSE ARE HUMAN TRAITS. Human traits are found in all of humanity, not just capitalists, communists... etc.! You can't simply say that all capitalists are bad just like you cannot say that all socialist are bad (as individual people).

This brings about the concept of confusion of attributes. Rather than make bold assertions I say look at history! Greed, corruption, death, abuse were all in existence before man acquired a means by which to become free from the enslavement of other men. It was all there before man took the opportunity to govern himself and take control of his own labor. The sovereign man, owning himself and the fruits of his labor is a relatively new concept in the history of man. Private property has been around forever, but allowing a man accumulate it based on his own abilities, regardless of class and social structure, regardless of birthright or violent act is relatively new. Looking at some of the richest men, computer programmer wanting only contract programming work from IBM, tossed a bone from IBM, becomes bigger than IBM!!! That is a story of capitalism; capitalism and freedom. Capitalism, freedom, the will, hard work, determination, and good fortune... etc., of one free man! The emphasis here is on the word FREE.

My point here is not on why capitalism works but in false assumptions about it. The allegations that it must be corrupt, that it must be evil unless it is controlled by some altruistic authority. There is no altruistic authority!!! This is the pot calling the kettle black. All the assumptions made about capitalist are not just applicable to capitalist!!! They are human characteristics. That make them the characteristics of men in general not just capitalists!

If one has concluded that capitalism is bad due to the characteristics of man, then all economic principals where man is involved carry the same risks. Simply sub-setting and applying negative human traits to the one system that supports free people is simply incorrect. If capitalism is bad based on human nature, then every system that includes humans is bad! This, by the way is an assumption of Marxism and is the rational for totalitarianism, and authoritarianism. Don't take my word for it, read Marx yourself!

I always find it amusing that the ruling class is always exempt from the rules of human behavior. They focus those traits on those that they wish to subvert and seize and never attribute anything but virtue and goodwill to themselves.

I love the MF video Rob, thanks for posting it. As one might imagine, I am a student of MF as well as others.

-Piggy

[BobKincaid]

Quite true the problem is not specific to any particular country. At the risk of being labelled a *gasp* communist, I'd sum it up this way....

There's much to recommend that video.

Among its most profound inherent problems is the fact that capitalism is predicated upon unlimited consumption, i.e. consumerism. Part of the problem may lie in the fact that the hummingbird-tongue-canape crowd is running out of resources to plunder. What happens when unlimited consumption runs up against finite consumables? At that point, supply and demand become an untenable model simply because they cannot be balanced.

[BobKincaid]

Just for easy reference, here's a link to a PDF of "The Wealth of Nations." http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/adam-smith/Wealth-Nations.pdf

It's been my experience that lots of folks who talk a lot about capitalism have never actually read its seminal treatise, relying instead on the likes of Ayn Rand or Milton Friedman or that Austrian bunch. Smith's capitalism is a far cry from the anarcho-predation of such folks.

It's especially informative to read Smith's other works, as well. He was far better known in his time for them than for TWON.

[jjdolphin]

There's much to recommend that video.

What happens when unlimited consumption runs up against finite consumables? At that point, supply and demand become an untenable model simply because they cannot be balanced.

At that point there is war. Throughout history,before capitalism, before socialism, men went into war because of more land, more resources, bigger empire...more of what the other guy has and I do not.

Human nature is such no matter what system you are in. The predator resides in humanity throughout time. Capitalism did not invent predatory instincts in man.

I am neither a lover of capitalism nor a detractor of it.

I lived in a communist country and now I live in a capitalist one. Been there, done that.

Seen the decrepit living standards of the East; disintegration of the work ethic; tyranny of the collective, squashing of all individuality, limitation on progress and on ingenuity. The saviors coming to dethrone the king/czar, and bring social justice with them..for the people. And all they do is what man does. His instinct kicks in and you end up with people that have and people that do not. The state run life, the control by the elite behind a facade of shared sacrifice, shared misery and the supposed power to the people.

Now that is predation at its best.

P.S I applogize to the members regarding the political rant, I will end it with this posting.

[Guest rob]

In spite of Rob's request to prevent this thread becoming a political discussion - This is one of the better discussions regarding moral/political opinions to have been discussed on this forum.

Well done gents. It's been great reading and it's nice to see everyone playing nice....

by the way... anyone seen Ken?

[mazolaman]

While democracy is the least worst system,

capitalism is probably the least worst system.

Unfortunately,we are living through a form of extreme capitalism.

I also find these discussions informative and interesting,from all reasonable points of view.

I often find that these discussions sometimes end in polarisation,which maybe is a form of discrediting an argument,ie;he's a communist,he's a capitalist....

My own angle is always for capitalism with a degree of social awareness,these things are not mutually exclusive.

Whichever way you choose,these are interesting times.

[jjdolphin]

While democracy is the least worst system,

capitalism is probably the least worst system.

Unfortunately,we are living through a form of extreme capitalism.

I too find it enjoyable in the discussions. More so with people who do not share my view, since there is not too much to discuss with someone who you agree with.

The more you learn about capitalism, the more you realize the different forms capitalism can take. I’ve been trying to determine what we are in now. Each country and continent has a different flavor, and you quickly realize that what you thought you were in, actually was never there in practice.

Free-market: supply and demand, production is privately owned, and the role of the state is limited to protecting property rights, no intervention, you fail means you fail. Cannot say we have that, or that we ever had that.

Corporate Capitalism or Corporatism: state benefits, protects from competition and promote the interests of dominant or established corporations. (I see a lot of that)

Crony Capitalism: strong ties between business and politicians. Politicians giving preferential treatment to business, tax-breaks, subsidies, grants, exemptions from certain laws/regulations etc. (I see a lot of this too)

State Capitalism: what you would probably think of China these days. The government is the capitalist.

I would go deeper into giving examples, but that would lead me into naming presidents, thus getting us more political than we need to be.

[danclough]

Capitalism did not invent predatory instincts in man.

I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory is faulty here, but I believe it was Hobbes in his book Leviathan who proposed that business and capitalism were the best way to harness those ultra-aggressive personalities in our societies. Better to have them warring over who can compile the most money than warring over who can control the most land.

[dicko]

Hmmm... As academics we need to change the worlds mode of thinking!!! Where has this guy been? This is precisely what has been done the past 40 years and it is exactly how we got here.

Lets take a guy who upfront admits he has no solution and let him talk about why he thinks a Marxist perspective works. Never mind the fact that Marxism is based in the belief the human individual has no value, except that to the State. Never mind the fact that those that believe as he appears to believe, have killed in excess of 100 million people trying to form the utopia that is just around the next corner. If we can simply kill enough people this time we might get there! Now that is a system to try! Never mind the violence, the destruction, the demoralization, the chaos that is caused by those that believe similarly!

My money is on the belief this guy has likely never built anything, other that a good case of hemorrhoids, never worked and created a product, never put another man to work, except to please himself. I'll take a pass on his ideas. His world is that of tenure. One where he is supported by an institution where much of its money may very likely come from tax subsidy from the taxpayers that make far less than he does. That is equity in his mind. The labor supports the academic that tells the labor what to do! Great narrative, fancy words and cute drawings... Same old ****!

When he is willing to be subject to the rule of law that he professes and becomes a baker by fiat, or a person who plants rice in a paddy; then I will take his thinking seriously. -Piggy

You would do well in Australia Piggy, going on about people in ivory towers is a national pastime