El Presidente

Decency and posting + Shoutbox etiquette

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See... that's the problem! I used to be the only site A-hole, now the place if full of them!!! I might have to adopt a nice, lovable Teddybear tenor...

... NOT!!!

Report me Nut... I double dog dare ya'...!!! :fuel: -the Pig

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." - Charles Caleb Colton

LOL. :D:buddies:

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And Ross, completely understood and agreed. I definitely empathise with you guys, that's for sure.

As in everything in life, it's the 1%-ers sometimes..... <_<

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I think there is a bit of hesitancy on the part of members (At least by me) with reporting as it crosses slightly into the whinging ballpark, but it is probably also true that there is also a bit of hesitancy from the mods/Czar team to have to resort to these measures; it's just not what FOH is about. However sometimes a little discomfort is sometimes nessesary in order to preserve something special. If people can't understand/will not abide by extremely simple house rules then they probably shouldn't be here. Just as we probably shouldn't have to pressure people into acting with a bit of class; if acting friendly doesn't come naturally to you then this really isn't the place for you either.

Australian/British male bonding is a strange thing, it's a carefully balanced mix of sarcasm/insults/putting down based on how well you know the other person and the circumstances. However it's something that takes years (Normally in highschool) to aquire the skill of knowing when you can do it and who it is appropriate to do it to; it's an extremely fine line that is normally learnt through a number of thumps to the face at school. It is something completely different to 'locker room humour' or 'just bustin your balls' and I suppose it could be misinterpreted differently online by those not used to it from other countries who then think that anyone is free game. But that is what makes FOH what it is, and I think is what is meant by:

"Read a while, take your time. Get to know the flow."

In the past normally if someone has misinterpreted how to behave a pm from a member normally set them straight and everything was fine. I don't know over the past 6 months that we have either picked up a handful of people who either take no notice or simply don't care to change, or older members have changed their way of acting but as Rob has said, it's come to a point where a line has to be drawn and those who enjoy poking fun at others, post malicious comments about other BOTL (regardless of if they are a member of FoH or not) or simply can't act in a civilised way are weeded out.

The mod/czar team have enough to deal with due to bots/upkeep/the business side of things to have to be cleaning up after people closing and deleting threads.

Just my 2c

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It can most certainly be a tough balance sometimes to create and more importantly maintain this type of community that doesn't also reek of the problems we see in our offline communities.

The rules here are few and basic, but they do need enforcing. The mods job is almost certainly thankless and tedious.

It was succinctly and easily boiled down by rob to.....NO TOSSERS, NO WANKERS.

Cheers to what rob, the mods and the team has created and maintains daily.

---

I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.631724,-87.070610

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Mobilizations

P.S. Ray, you've been missed - I wish your active return would have been under fairer skies.

... Thanks Ross, I have missed the lot of you. I owe a lot of personal emails back, Chris, Guy, Patrick, Rob... to name a few. I have been kinda' keepin' to myself lately.

I have not seen any of what is going on, I only posted because I had the idea. I have a lot of ideas!!!

This is a shame. I mean, you guys know me... I have a biker mouth and I post it openly at times. While I cuss a lot, I only really post it as I say it mainly when talking H SA and how I really hate what is happening to the Cuban cigar. While many may view it as classless, and I certainly understand that perspective, I see "some" profanity as kind of an artistic license... This is how I describe it for my use anyway. I am not complaining about you cleaning it up. I understand the job you do. From the heart however, I am disappointed by it. I say this as a contributor here, a concerned member and not as an antagonist and I hope you can understand me on it.

I do think that posting #$%#, and having it interpreted as classless and therefore triggering an edit, potentially ruining an entire post is over the top censorship. I see things like this ebb and flow, but sometime it takes a strong hand to fix it. I think Mods should consider the poster (member) the content and the context before scrubbing the post, traditionally as it has been done for a long time now. This defines work for the moderator, and I can see clearly that you guys are getting pretty sick of it. I am reading that, in between the lines, anyway. This place (the forum), is a friends house. This is how I see it, and I don't want to leave it a mess after the party. Not for him, nor anyone else to have to clean up after me.

While I don't mind being considered boorish at times, I don't like to be considered as one without class, so I moderate myself. This is how I expect others to behave. It does make me wonder however how so many of us got along so well for so long without this BS. The changing landscape of the forum has contributed somewhat to my absence. I am not, however, blaming another for it as I think of myself as responsible for it as much as anyone else. An explanation may be due here!

I would like you all to consider this for a moment before you dismiss the thought as one of those egocentric moments of mine! You see, a forum is it's members. That is you and me folks. We are only as good as a board as we are as individual members of it.

I see members as senior and junior. I don't see them in a hierarchal form, not one of post count, member number nor join date strata, but as to each his own for the content of quality he provides to the forum. It is not specific content to Cuban cigar history or experience, but broad-based. It may be your country's sport, or fishing, your exotic travels etcetera, with hopefully a tie in to the Cuban cigar. This is a "life with cigars," site.

There is no superiority nor inferiority implied by what I say. But there is an implied leadership role to be played by senior members. While all the member are responsible for the tone and tranquility of the place, it is the senior members have to make sure that the content and context, the quality of the place is passed from senior to junior member. All members can become senior members. It is the mentoring of the board as a whole that makes this transition. It has nothing to do with taste, cigar collection or knowledge. It has to do with temperament and content. A spirit of sharing quality content and shaping the board with it. A desire to get the junior members to fit in with the tradition, to appreciate it the way it is, and not the "way it was." It is way too easy to say that it is the fault of the 'new people.'

This junior-senior separation is not divisive. It is exactly the opposite, it is cooperative, mentoring and inclusive if done correctly; if done the same way that we have done it for near a decade now. Participation by senior "fellows" must be kept up and interesting if you wish junior members to participate in an interesting fashion and "follow" that trend and tradition. Tradition, is what I am talking about. Tradition founded in friendship, fellowship and respect, not really by rule of law.

For me, I have posted less for many reasons, partly because of the complexion of the board. Now, while you might be thinking that I am blaming someone else for a change that I don't like, it is actually the contrary. There are a host of reasons, but based on what I wrote in the previous paragraphs, you might say I blame myself, and a lot of other senior guys here for what has happened here. As an individual, the fact is I have censored myself a lot by not posting. Over the past year, I have seen my posts get progressively more political, less interesting and when objectively self analyzed, certainly more antagonistic. Viewed through my own eyes, I figured I was hurting more than helping so I stopped posting.

Quality content is everyone's responsibility. It is not the new people's fault if the senior members are not carrying the water anymore. That would be our own faults gentlemen!

My followers (meaning readers who know me) are probably wondering when this is going to get political...! Yes, I have something political to say!!! Political in that of pertaining to H SA, Tabacuba, et al. One of the other reasons that I don't post as much? The Cuban cigar is getting boring!!! It is not that I am bored with cigars, not at all, but I am less than thrilled by what passes for a Cuban cigar today. I am smoking no cigars from this decade and I am not really enthusiastic about them. I am smoking cigars from 1 and 2 decades ago. That is where my interests are. My favorite cigars are no longer contemporary. In this world I have become an anachronism!

While some of the new people might read this as yet another aged cigar smoking pompous 5th member; those that know me can tell you I am anything but. It is not the age of the cigar that makes it significant to me. It is the care in making it in the size, and therefor the taste that I prefer that makes it interesting to me. Interesting to smoke, interesting to purchase and interesting to talk about. The Cuban cigar industry has left me behind.

To surmise, if you want your forum back, you must bring it back yourselves, one thoughtful, and thought provoking thread at a time. It does not take just the senior members providing the content but the senior member must bridge that gap when site traffic is low. If you don't fill your pages with good quality content... the low quality will take its place!

Moderators, you guys have a thankless job and I am sorry that some have pushed you over the edge. Public forums are like that. Content and mentoring traditions are paramount for the forum and for the moderator alike.

This is my thoughtful content of the day!!!

Nice to talk you again my friend. I will try to be contributing more going forward. -Ray

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This is my thoughtful content of the day!!!

Ray, thanks for your thoughtful response. You make some good points, and if I may, I'll give my thoughts on a couple of them.

Regarding content, of course there will be ebb and flow, and I understand your point, but I think this is less about content and

more about attitude and / or environment - for me a palpable swing away from a feeling of fraternity.

As for the language, initially we had been directed to allow some from time to time dependent on context. Unfortunately, there was

somwhat of a snowball effect and it became a bit too common. It also puts mods in the tough position of having to explain why some

posts are allowed and some not. I use colorful language at home (perhaps more than I should) - I try not to here. Some may say that

makes me two faced, or I'm putting on airs, etc. I don't look at it that way. Sometimes I can wear jeans and a t shirt, sometimes I

have to put on a collared shirt and tie. I don't scratch my nuts in public. I don't think it changes who I am.

Captain Q brought up hesitancy and I agree. But it's not about an unwillingness to do a job. As he alluded to, it's more about members

taking care of themselves and the forum. About us not wishing to be obtrusive, to be cops, to be baby sitters.

I'm not trying to drag this topic out, but perhaps this kind of discourse will allow all of us to step back and remember why we were

attracted to FOH, and why we've stuck around.

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FOH should be fun for all of us. That includes the mods !LOL!

It is 1% of people causing 90% of issues. That 1% will be terminated and it cuts given some are mates of mine. still, it is apparent that being a keyboard bigshot means more to them than flying the flag of forum values. We build things bigger than ourselves at FOH.

I will be sorry to see Ken go

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Being one of the .00000001 members who are female, I thought I would provide a little feedback on this topic. I am a member on just about every cigar forum out there, as I tried to shamelessly drum up coffee business when I started out.

As far as I am concerned, the members of this forum are friendly, classy and wonderful gentlemen. I was the only lady among 40 guys in Montreal recently and I felt safe, comfortable and welcome. I can tell you Matthew would have never agreed for me to go had I not met with them so many times already in the city.

Lisa

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I think there is a bit of hesitancy on the part of members (At least by me) with reporting as it crosses slightly into the whinging ballpark, but it is probably also true that there is also a bit of hesitancy from the mods/Czar team to have to resort to these measures; it's just not what FOH is about. However sometimes a little discomfort is sometimes nessesary in order to preserve something special. If people can't understand/will not abide by extremely simple house rules then they probably shouldn't be here. Just as we probably shouldn't have to pressure people into acting with a bit of class; if acting friendly doesn't come naturally to you then this really isn't the place for you either.

Australian/British male bonding is a strange thing, it's a carefully balanced mix of sarcasm/insults/putting down based on how well you know the other person and the circumstances. However it's something that takes years (Normally in highschool) to aquire the skill of knowing when you can do it and who it is appropriate to do it to; it's an extremely fine line that is normally learnt through a number of thumps to the face at school. It is something completely different to 'locker room humour' or 'just bustin your balls' and I suppose it could be misinterpreted differently online by those not used to it from other countries who then think that anyone is free game. But that is what makes FOH what it is, and I think is what is meant by:

"Read a while, take your time. Get to know the flow."

In the past normally if someone has misinterpreted how to behave a pm from a member normally set them straight and everything was fine. I don't know over the past 6 months that we have either picked up a handful of people who either take no notice or simply don't care to change, or older members have changed their way of acting but as Rob has said, it's come to a point where a line has to be drawn and those who enjoy poking fun at others, post malicious comments about other BOTL (regardless of if they are a member of FoH or not) or simply can't act in a civilised way are weeded out.

The mod/czar team have enough to deal with due to bots/upkeep/the business side of things to have to be cleaning up after people closing and deleting threads.

Just my 2c

+1!

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Captain Q brought up hesitancy and I agree. But it's not about an unwillingness to do a job. As he alluded to, it's more about members

taking care of themselves and the forum. About us not wishing to be obtrusive, to be cops, to be baby sitters.

Oh no, sorry if it came across as an unwillingness, blame my poor attempt at trying to put down my thoughts into words :foot: I know you guys are more than willing to solve the issue, we're all grateful for the work you guys do :ok:

I think rightfully there should be a bit of hesitancy from mods as an extremely pro-active approach to the problem would go against the easy going FoH culture. I know there is a 100% willingness to sort out the problem from the mods, I think any unwillingness would be towards changing the feel of the site from laid back to strict and formal via effective but drastic draconian actions, so a well warrented hesitancy is...well it's well warrented :lol3:

There I think I'm more clear now :D

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I'm sticking my neck out here, but I don't mind. . .

I recently had one of my threads deleted without explanation from any of the moderators. I posted a funny youtube video of a guy smoking a cigar and the comments went to the edge of good taste at one point. However, why would the whole thread be deleted and not the offending comments? I posted the thread in the spirit of good fun and "POOF" it's gone within 2 hours.

I 1000% respect FOH for it's congenial nature, unlike some other cigars websites we all know well. I just hope some of those with thin skin or a predisposition to tattle don't sterilize the boards...

Good luck with the shout box -- what Riaz gets away with pales in comparison to the boards :) :) :)

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I recently had one of my threads deleted without explanation from any of the moderators.

...

I just hope some of those with thin skin or a predisposition to tattle don't sterilize the boards...

I don't know anything about the thread in question so I can't comment there. I can tell you that any and all deletions are well-considered. We don't take that action lightly. For every post or thread that you see moderated, there are some number that are left as-is.

As to your second point, it comes across as a bit baiting in tone.

The "thinness" of any given member's skin is not the consideration here. Rob is quite clear about the standard of behavior he wishes for this community. Acknowledging this and living up to that standard is expected of anyone who chooses to be a member here.

As for "tattling?" What are we, grade schoolers? See wankerness, report wankerness. And again, not all complaints are acted upon. If the complaint itself is not in line with the standards, then that member is advised as such. Whether they then decide that this is something they can live with or not, it's up to that person.

We're grown-ups here. Adults of a certain demeanor when we are in this place.

Wilkey

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I recently had one of my threads deleted without explanation from any of the moderators. I posted a funny youtube video of a guy smoking a cigar and the comments went to the edge of good taste at one point. However, why would the whole thread be deleted and not the offending comments? I posted the thread in the spirit of good fun and "POOF" it's gone within 2 hours.

I was the one who deleted the tread after complaints and viewing it myself.

I think your own comments explains why it was deleted.....

...........and the comments went to the edge of good taste at one point.

Firstly the majority of the comments were in poor taste.

Two members did post urging restraint, buy they were ignored.

Basically once this sort of thing starts, it tends to grow.

So, like a noxious weed, it gets cut off at the root....not pruned.

I posted the thread in the spirit of good fun..........

We do not make fun of fellow cigar smokers, no matter how inexperienced they might be.

Trevor.

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Here is my take.

This is the only cigar forum I hang out on.

It's really the only friendly one. Every other one seems to be rude, nasty or obscene.

I really am planning a trip some day to Canada to one of the herfs by the folks of there. And, when my wife and I head to Australia... you can bet we're going to stop by the Czar's deck.

If we need to ban a few people, or delete a few comments to keep this the friendliest cigar forum on the net, I think most people would be behind it.

It's also important to remember that most of the mods are volunteers. They're trying to maintain the feel that we all love about this board.

Lets be nice, civil, and remember... we may all have different opinions about politics, religion and so on. But. We all like having a good cigar with good people. And, that's what makes this board fun. Because there are lots of people here that like having a good cigar with good people. And we enjoy the camaraderie.

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Software automatic editing, has only been on for a day or two (or has just been beefed up). People have been using F@#k thinking that this is alright......it is not!

Trying it on (in the future) will get those members banned. :mad:

Trevor

First of all I believe my posts on this subject are clear that i am behind rob and the mods on maintaining FOH as an enjoyable place. This is the only cigar forum I visit,period. I do so for a reason, it's a community of like minded cigar enthusiasts.

Having said that and at the risk of sticking my neck out (or my nose where it doesn't belong) i found a post in the classic posts section by none other than El Pres that was full of the ***** type expletives. As Trevor states above, that is now punishable by ban.

So I have to ask. Is it the **** expletives that are now out of favor or the resulting cavalcade of lowered standards type behavior that ensues in a post that contains *****'s?

I guess I can get behind either one as Rob and the mods see fit but it seems a bit inconsistent. If its the ensuing lowered behavior that's the problem, edit or ban those involved.

Why the change of stance on *****?

---

I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.631745,-87.070589

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Why the change of stance on *****?

To be clear we changed stance by mutual mod agreement a few months back. The language was getting out of control and it was a concern. Anyone who knows me knows I am no prude. Still, for the betterment of FOH into the future we had to take a stance which included reeling myself in. It is for this reason you will find older threads that contravene the current ruling.

I can't tell you how much I hate rules. I hate as much contacting members letting them know their post was deleted or edited because of this or that. I sit back wondering why some members put mods in that position. It is degrading. I don't contact anymore. If the member has an issue then he knows my e-mail/pm

In relation to posting vids of real people reviewing cigars and then teeing off on them I have no hesitation in deleting them. They have no ability to defend themselves. Tossers they may or may not be but FOH will not be used as a modern form of the "stocks" with members throwing cyber fruit and vegetables. Give a thought to the mods....why in hells name should they go and "tease" out the offending posts within a thread. Just delete the bloody thing and move on. To top it off some posters want the mods to PM them and give their reasons why? FOH is not the UN (FOH actually works !LOL!). Mods are volunteers and not keyboard police.

Mofderation on FOH does not occur very often. It certainly has increased much to my dismay. Once upon a time ...not too long ago it was almost unheard of as all members ruthlessly maintained the culture. We are heading there again. It will not suit some and I understand that but in all honesty I really don't care.

If anyone has a question they can PM or e-mail me.

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Why the change of stance on *****?

To be clear we changed stance by mutual mod agreement a few months back. The language was getting out of control and it was a concern. Anyone who knows me knows I am no prude. Still, for the betterment of FOH into the future we had to take a stance which included reeling myself in. It is for this reason you will find older threads that contravene the current ruling.

I can't tell you how much I hate rules. I hate as much contacting members letting them know their post was deleted or edited because of this or that. I sit back wondering why some members put mods in that position. It is degrading. I don't contact anymore. If the member has an issue then he knows my e-mail/pm

In relation to posting vids of real people reviewing cigars and then teeing off on them I have no hesitation in deleting them. They have no ability to defend themselves. Tossers they may or may not be but FOH will not be used as a modern form of the "stocks" with members throwing cyber fruit and vegetables. Give a thought to the mods....why in hells name should they go and "tease" out the offending posts within a thread. Just delete the bloody thing and move on. To top it off some posters want the mods to PM them and give their reasons why? FOH is not the UN (FOH actually works !LOL!). Mods are volunteers and not keyboard police.

Mofderation on FOH does not occur very often. It certainly has increased much to my dismay. Once upon a time ...not too long ago it was almost unheard of as all members ruthlessly maintained the culture. We are heading there again. It will not suit some and I understand that but in all honesty I really don't care.

If anyone has a question they can PM or e-mail me.

Understood and well put. As I stated earlier, being a mod is certainly a thankless task and I agree that parsing individual posts within a thread is a waste of time and energy.

Thanks for the clarification. I think most people would agree with you re hating rules, but even with rules in any community some people can't live within them. And the good of the whole certainly outweighs any one individual.

Cheers

---

I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=20.631749,-87.070577

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