Vacuum pack


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1 hour ago, Bartolomeo said:

For shits and giggles, I vacum sealed a box of variety of cigars back in 2014 that sits in my humi to this day, I will be opening it very soon and see what the results will be. I will also let it sit for a bit to re-acclimate to its surroundings.

Bart

Ryan, I'd say definitely try one right away.  I find that in the immediate few days after I open a vacuum sealed box, they smoke very well.

The sick period seems to take a week or two to set in.  It seems to last several months to maybe more than half a year.

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On 8/10/2012 at 11:21 PM, UpInSmoak said:

I unpack my newly arrived cigars and immediately re-pack them in freezer grade ziplocks for freezing.

If the vacuum bags are strong enough to withstand a few days of subzero temps without causing freezer burn, I would just assume to keep them in there.

To piggyback the OP, does anyone freeze in the vendors vacuum sealed bags?

Exactly.  Too afraid I will cause damage in a vacuum bag.  2 days in fridge at 37 degrees, 2 days at zero F in freezer,  fridge for 2 days then coolidor at 65 thereafter.  No science behind it but I open coolidor and fan in fresh air once or twice a week.  Boveda packs at 65% and cedar shelves keep RH in a good range.  Anyone else feel their sticks need to breathe?  

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59 minutes ago, paindoc70 said:

Exactly.  Too afraid I will cause damage in a vacuum bag.  2 days in fridge at 37 degrees, 2 days at zero F in freezer,  fridge for 2 days then coolidor at 65 thereafter.  No science behind it but I open coolidor and fan in fresh air once or twice a week.  Boveda packs at 65% and cedar shelves keep RH in a good range.  Anyone else feel their sticks need to breathe?  

2 days pre freeze in the fridge?  No no!  Even 1 day is too much.  Straight to the freezer.   Fridge post is fine, but not necessary.

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On 9/3/2012 at 8:36 PM, mk05 said:

Research has shown 3 days is the timeframe needed (the normal temp range of most freezers) to kill all beetles.

You should always take the cigars out of the vacuum to inspect, LET THE CIGARS AND THE BOX COME TO EQUILIBRIUM TO YOUR HUMI'S CLIMATE, and then reseal to store. Condensation is your enemy, and you don't want your cigars in a different climate when you insert into your humi...it will either crack or explode.

This^^^^

 

They need to spend time in below freezing temps to ensure larvae is killed off.

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18 hours ago, Monterey said:

2 days pre freeze in the fridge?  No no!  Even 1 day is too much.  Straight to the freezer.   Fridge post is fine, but not necessary.

My concern with straight to freezer is condensation developing.  The goal is to gradually lower to freezing temps and gradually raise to storage conditions.  Fridge, Freezer, Fridge, Coolidor for me.  Rapid freezing may cause condensation that freezes and then upon the thaw, damages your sticks or may cause mold to develop.  4-6 weeks to your door, so what's a few days more for the RH changes to gently equilibrate?

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4 hours ago, paindoc70 said:

My concern with straight to freezer is condensation developing.  The goal is to gradually lower to freezing temps and gradually raise to storage conditions.  Fridge, Freezer, Fridge, Coolidor for me.  Rapid freezing may cause condensation that freezes and then upon the thaw, damages your sticks or may cause mold to develop.  4-6 weeks to your door, so what's a few days more for the RH changes to gently equilibrate?

No worries with the gradual.  Slowly lowering the temp will only acclimate the beetles to withstand the freeze.  The more time in the fridge, the harder it will be to kill.   I'm not saying that beetles will survive, but it raises the risk.   Better safe than sorry.  Straight to the freezer.  I do put my cigars in the fridge after the freeze though.

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17 hours ago, Monterey said:

Slowly lowering the temp will only acclimate the beetles to withstand the freeze.  The more time in the fridge, the harder it will be to kill.   I'm not saying that beetles will survive, but it raises the risk.

Well this is technically true, but not really a correct representation of the Imai and Harada paper for our cigar boxes in the freezer context.

They found that all stages, including the acclimated larvae, approached 100% mortality in a matter of hours at temperatures typical in a consumer freezer (-15C to -18C range).  And "acclimated" was defined as one month at 15C.

I am in the "straight to the freezer is fine" camp, but the refrigerator step isn't going to turn them into super-beetles that can survive days at -18C.

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36 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

Well this is technically true, but not really a correct representation of the Imai and Harada paper for our cigar boxes in the freezer context.

They found that all stages, including the acclimated larvae, approached 100% mortality in a matter of hours at temperatures typical in a consumer freezer (-15C to -18C range).  And "acclimated" was defined as one month at 15C.

I am in the "straight to the freezer is fine" camp, but the refrigerator step isn't going to turn them into super-beetles that can survive days at -18C.

I didn't say days, I said it slightly elevated the risk, and there is no upside to the fridge.  That is all.

As for -15, most do not go that low.  Most hover around 0c.  For chest freezers, which not everyone has, it can get that low, but most seem to top off at -10.  But again, we can't assume everyone has chest freezers, I'm sure a large percent of people are using their fridge/freezer units. 

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7 minutes ago, Monterey said:

I didn't say days, I said it slightly elevated the risk, and there is no upside to the fridge.  That is all.

But it doesn't slightly elevate the risk when you're leaving the boxes in the freezer for 24 or 48 hours or more.  Read the paper.  100% mortality of all stages within 4 hours for all stages, and 6 hours for the acclimated larvae. That two hours is meaningless when everyone is leaving their boxes in the freezer for at least a full day.  Most people leave them in for 2+ days.

The entire portion of the paper addressing "acclimated" larvae was to address survivability in a winter over situation outside of mechanical cooling.

No one putting cigar boxes in the refrigerator a day or two before freezing is increasing the risk of surviving beetles of any stage.  Unless there's someone on this forum who is running a refrigerator at +15C, leaving their boxes in that condition for a month, then only freezing for 4 or less hours.

7 minutes ago, Monterey said:

As for -15, most do not go that low.  Most hover around 0c.

Nonsense.  Pretty much every consumer level refrigerator/freezer combo unit can easily do -15C and lower in the freezer unless malfunctioning.  If your freezer is hovering around 0C, all the spoiled food will tell you immediately something is broken.

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1 hour ago, Monterey said:

As for -15, most do not go that low.  Most hover around 0c. 

This isn't true. I have used three regular household kitchen fridge/freezer units of different brands/models to freeze my cigars recently. With the coldness setting at "Normal" or half way on a numerical scale the freezers are able to maintain between -10 and -20 C.

42 minutes ago, TheGipper said:

100% mortality of all stages within 4 hours for all stages, and 6 hours for the acclimated larvae.

Just want to clarify that these timeframes are specific to -15 C. People are going to have to figure out what temperature their freezers maintain. In my case, though the freezer does cool down to -20 C, at which point the compressor turns off, the compressor doesn't turn back on until the temperature is -10 C. So for all intents and purposes, my freezer really only maintains -10 C. So I end up keeping the cigars in the freezer for 48-72 hours. The first 24-48 for the cigars to cool down to at least -10 and the last 24 to eradicate.

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43 minutes ago, sho671 said:

Just want to clarify that these timeframes are specific to -15 C. People are going to have to figure out what temperature their freezers maintain. In my case, though the freezer does cool down to -20 C, at which point the compressor turns off, the compressor doesn't turn back on until the temperature is -10 C. So for all intents and purposes, my freezer really only maintains -10 C. So I end up keeping the cigars in the freezer for 48-72 hours. The first 24-48 for the cigars to cool down to at least -10 and the last 24 to eradicate.

Correct, and a useful clarification!  This is why most of us do 48+ hours in the freezer to ensure we cover the unknowns.

And for those interested, a link to the Imai/Harada paper below.  Table 1 has the pertinent times.

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/aez/41/1/41_1_87/_pdf

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13 minutes ago, Monterey said:

If you feel the need to extend the freezing time to compensate for pointlessly putting your cigars in fridge, then have at it. 

I put them directly into the freezer when I freeze. I extend the time in the freezer to compensate for the time it takes the entire cigar to reach the desired temp.

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On a side note, I have some cigars in my freezer going on 18 months.  Little experiment.  I like doing random things others won't.  Waiting for 3 years. Have more of the same in vacuum seal, and more just in a small box aging normally. 

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2 hours ago, VKUTT said:

I like to bring them down and back up more gradually by putting them in the fridge for 24 hours each way. "Pointlessly" seems to be a matter of opinion. And there is less condensation that way than when I take them straight out of the freezer to room temp. But if you want to put them straight into the freezer, go for it. ??

My freezer, my neighbor's freezer, my cigar buddy's freezer, my parents' freezer all go to -10 or lower (mine goes to -15). 

 

 

 

We all established the temp thing.  And I wasn't talking about the fridge post freeze. 

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Usually I leave NC in the freezer for a week or two, but I only freeze Cubans if they’re direct from the island or they came from a non-vendor.  I’ve only ever had beetles from NC, and that before I was freezing them.

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On 8/9/2020 at 3:45 PM, VKUTT said:

I like to bring them down and back up more gradually by putting them in the fridge for 24 hours each way. "Pointlessly" seems to be a matter of opinion. And there is less condensation that way than when I take them straight out of the freezer to room temp. But if you want to put them straight into the freezer, go for it. ??

My freezer, my neighbor's freezer, my cigar buddy's freezer, my parents' freezer all go to -10 or lower (mine goes to -15). 

 

 

 

?Exactly.  Condensation is the main concern.  Cigars left on my doorstep in 90 degree heat placed in the freezer directly has led to this.  If they slowly equilibrate over several days, no harm done and my sticks come out great.  May not be an issue for those in colder climates. 

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