Cigar Underground Network Logo's

[Guest rob]

Ken could be Chewy...

Not the Ewok??

[Jeremy Festa]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_fist

For the record

[El Presidente]

I actually really wanted your opinions

Let me paint a picture. We are persecuted here by Government. Far more than anywhere else in the world. The Govt hates us. They have gone out of their way to destroy us. They detest the Cigar Underground Network Acronym. They consider it misogynist, sexist, challenging. For that reason alone it will stay.

Ray in this hobby we live in a communist/fascist state. The majority dictates to the law abiding minority. They are relentless. They wish to see the last cigar taken from your humidor.

I don't accept it. I won't have it. I won't comply.

The logo simply translates via imagery the holding onto something we treasure. Let them ply it from our dead cold hands. These people don't understand/fear "warm and fuzzy" logo / icons or organisations. They trample them for breakfast.

. let them (as they are) grapple with what the hell an "underground is" . They have no idea (I am just getting one !LOL!). Still...let us provide them a rabbit to chase.

Militant: Absolutely.

Communist: No

Anti Government Cigar Policy: Yes

In this fight we are a union. "The members united will never be defeated"

[Fuzz]

Not the Ewok??

Too tall for an Ewok. And to be honest, I could imagine Ken bellowing like a Wookiee when ranting about Telstra, QANTAS, sauv blanc tasting events...

[Guest rob]

Yeah, but Chewy was cool.

[Munts]

With my apologies to Colt, far be it for me, a new guy, to be the lone critic, especially when I have no experience in art or graphic arts ... but to me, the text would read easier and be more balanced if it read as CIGAR UNDERGROUND NETWORK in an arc above the fist, and TERRA AUSTRALIAS (etc.) in a reverse arc beneath the fist.

I agree with this.

*edit* I have done a quick mock up to demonstrate....

[Zacapa]

Piggy I definitely take your point that cool pop-culture symbols can lose their original meaning, where the original meaning can be pretty unsavoury at times or at least mean something completely different originally. But at the same time symbolism and meanings are dynamic just as the meaning of words change over time. Case in point the word "cool" - it didn't originally mean trendy, or even a word like "sophisticated" it originally only meant fake or deceitful until the 1800s.

"For you pleasure I have included information from Wiki regarding the symbol."

...The salute dates back to ancient Assyria as a symbol of resistance in the face of violence...

...The symbol has been picked up and incorporated around the world by various groups fighting oppression...

...The raised fist logo may represent unity or solidarity, generally with oppressed peoples...

...Depending on the elements combined, the meaning of the gesture changes in tone and intention.e.g. communism, feminism, librarians...

It may be just me Piggy, but the wiki article you posted seemed to emphasise that communism and racism were only a fraction of what the raised fist is about currently and historically.

I am just saying that when you as a group become a threat to the taxation of the left, don't be surprised when someone comes out and says that you use racist imagery in you logo and takes you to town for it...

I agree with you that symbolism is important, but to go so far as to say that FOH may be confused and /or smeared as a racial hate group is stretching my imagination a little. I could imagine being smeared as a "pro-cancer" group but racial hatred is a little hard to get my mind around.

As always it is great to have some debate and divided opinions - that's a part of why this forum is great

[sactochris]

I love 'em.

[PigFish]

Piggy I definitely take your point that cool pop-culture symbols can lose their original meaning, where the original meaning can be pretty unsavoury at times or at least mean something completely different originally. But at the same time symbolism and meanings are dynamic just as the meaning of words change over time. Case in point the word "cool" - it didn't originally mean trendy, or even a word like "sophisticated" it originally only meant fake or deceitful until the 1800s.

It may be just me Piggy, but the wiki article you posted seemed to emphasise that communism and racism were only a fraction of what the raised fist is about currently and historically.

I agree with you that symbolism is important, but to go so far as to say that FOH may be confused and /or smeared as a racial hate group is stretching my imagination a little. I could imagine being smeared as a "pro-cancer" group but racial hatred is a little hard to get my mind around.

As always it is great to have some debate and divided opinions - that's a part of why this forum is great

I don't really wish to drag this down any further... I have said my piece. I will clarify one point.

The point that I think you might have missed Zacy is that the people fighting you will use anything to control the argument and halt you. My point was why give them the ammo to do it?

They don't have to be right. They don't have to be accurate! All that they have to do is plant the seed in the minds of those who are perhaps open to reason that you are racist, misogynist... etc. and you lose with them. Most laissez faire individuals don't really care about your cause. People on the right may be put off by the symbolism. People on the left, knowing what it means will likely be put off by you using it. This does not mean that you will get under their skin... it means they will take the "non-populist" meaning that you don't want and apply it to you.

I understand Robs point somewhat in it is about raising hell!!! It is about making people uncomfortable.

I am about winning... If winning is your goal, I think depicting the oppressors for what they are should be the goal.

In some peoples minds this represents angry white people. To others it represents angry black people... To the right, it generally means a leftist, socialist movement. The leftist socialist types already know that you are not with them... so where does it leave you?

If it is about being edgy and selling shirts great! If it is about really trying to convey to non-smokers that they have lost rights to the police state... that their hobby, passion, interest may be next, I see it as a flop. This is just my opinion.

The left, the people who bring this type of legislation don't like to be questioned. They are doing it for the children after all (that is a joke of course). But, when you threaten them and get any ground they will use any... and I mean ANY means to shut you up.

The white sheep public will bite on almost anything to dismiss you. The left will hang any term on you that they can. Not to piss you off... BUT TO WIN!

If you would like to see the left in action, watch US network news. One group (I will not mention them for the sake of making political statements) will demonstrate and leave a park clean. Another will leave drug needles, have arrests for rape and damage of property etc., and the reporters will indicate that the first protest was a bunch of racists and the second protest is one centered on fairness...

The point being, it is easy to predict how the political left will act. The left can use the fist imagery and they will be called the abused minority, one meaning according to Wiki. If a pro-freedom group uses it, it will mean something different. The left will pick the most negative imagery, and calling people racist is the current hot potato and there you have it. You will in fact be branded racists and the dope without an opinion will likely fall for it. You may feel good, but you LOSE!

Underestimating the left is the biggest mistake those that fight it make. That was my point.

There is a case currently in a US court. It is about this abortion doctor, Dr. Gossnell. This guy is a murderer. I won't cover it here, this is not the place, it is gruesome, you can read about it yourself. Now if this guy was killing whales, seals, dolphins or anything else it would be all over the news, front page stuff. The network news is hardly talking about it. Why? Because this guy does abortions for a living and that is a protected topic of the left. It looks like this guy might have killed hundreds of live kids! He is being charged for 7. He has killed more people than the bomb in Boston, just as brutally! Read some of the testimony... it will make you cry if it does not make you vomit first! This should be all over the news... ALL OVER THE WORLD. He is a serial killer. Perhaps the most prolific in history. His story is largely protected by political correctness from the left where it is more important to protect the greater cause then tell the truth about this topic. I brought this up not as a topic, but as an example about what it means to control dialogue and suppress opposition.

Controlling the dialog and controlling speech, or suppressing the story, is what the left does to win. They want to talk about their benefits, not the truth behind the story. This is just one such incident. This is what you are up against.

If you get a foothold, you will be called a white racist group, not by Ray, but by your opponent, just because of the imagery you use! The truth does not at all matter. Winning matters to your opponent. Your opponent will never stop.

Cheers. -Ray

[Colt45]

My point was why give them the ammo to do it?

Sometimes we care about what others think of us - other times not so much. Sometimes we fight by Marquess of Queensberry rules - other times a boot to an opponents chops works wonders. The Aussie government might look upon Rob's organization (logos included) as radical. I imagine the King of England might have felt the same way about American revolutionaries.

I'm searching for a way to really distill and articulate my thoughts. The best I can come up with at this point is that I think Rob could play the game as others would like him to, or he can do things his way - perhaps not playing the game at all.

[PigFish]

Sometimes we care about what others think of us - other times not so much. Sometimes we fight by Marquess of Queensberry rules - other times a boot to an opponents chops works wonders. The Aussie government might look upon Rob's organization (logos included) as radical. I imagine the King of England might have felt the same way about American revolutionaries.

I'm searching for a way to really distill and articulate my thoughts. The best I can come up with at this point is that I think Rob could play the game as others would like him to, or he can do things his way - perhaps not playing the game at all.

I agree Ross. I am less on the topic now and on to explaining my views in an academic discussion as those reply to me about it.

I do think I have detracted from this enough already. I do wish to be understood however. I am not looking to change Robs mind, his position is pretty clear. Nor do I wish to detract from his efforts.

At least one poster stated that I caused him to think about the topic more in depth. Agree or disagree, I enjoy the discussion and if it causes a person to pause and think about the smoking debate, who is involved and why, what is at stake and why... then the time I have put into the writing has made it worth my while.

This is my way of fighting back; not fighting Rob, but fighting those responsible. I would like that understood.

Cheers, my friend. -Ray

[Colt45]

I enjoy the discussion....

Of course - cheers mate

[Sir Diggamus]

They look good!

[riazp]

I actually really wanted your opinions

Let me paint a picture. We are persecuted here by Government. Far more than anywhere else in the world. The Govt hates us. They have gone out of their way to destroy us. They detest the Cigar Underground Network Acronym. They consider it misogynist, sexist, challenging. For that reason alone it will stay.

Ray in this hobby we live in a communist/fascist state. The majority dictates to the law abiding minority. They are relentless. They wish to see the last cigar taken from your humidor.

I don't accept it. I won't have it. I won't comply.

The logo simply translates via imagery the holding onto something we treasure. Let them ply it from our dead cold hands. These people don't understand/fear "warm and fuzzy" logo / icons or organisations. They trample them for breakfast.

. let them (as they are) grapple with what the hell an "underground is" . They have no idea (I am just getting one !LOL!). Still...let us provide them a rabbit to chase.

Militant: Absolutely.

Communist: No

Anti Government Cigar Policy: Yes

In this fight we are a union. "The members united will never be defeated"

I must say, I agree. I think the logo represents out fight, represents our fight vs the government. If only they saw what cigars are all about. Not the tobacco that we burn and enjoy, but the fraternity involved in our hobby, the friendships they create, the laughter and commororadery shared when we are enjoying our cigars with our mates, new and old.

I have met many new people thanks to this hobby, and I now consider them some of my best mates. I was talking about this the other day with Tom and Simon, who, less than 2 years ago were pefect strangers to me, but now are great mates. The guys in this forums, banded together like brothers, to help out a brother when he was down and out.

For those who dont know, my wife, left me 1 year ago, without warning, leaving me devastated. I received many emails, pm's from bothers offering their support. Art organised a massive effort and banded a bunch of brothers, across, the forums, many who i've never even met other than conversations on the forums, and well they suprised me with packages containing cigars, books, A cap from my beloved UDub Huskies from brother habanakane,ect. The thought and gesture behind this helped me alot, moral wise. Even Rob, our leader, took time out of his busy schedule to personally call me to check up on me and see how i was doing.

We need to hold on to this brotherhood. In this case, the brotherhood is represented by the cigar. The government will have to pry this brotherhood out of my cold dead hands.

[Bartolomeo]

I agree with this.

*edit* I have done a quick mock up to demonstrate....

Looks good!

[riazp]

I must say, Munts mock up does look cleaner...

[canadianbeaver]

If you love this set of logos, more power to you brother! If you prefer a more passive approach, wear the original.

No biggie.

[Upmann2009]

Good looking logo! Love to have cap with that.

[edlye]

I'd have to agree with Ray. In an age of lazy journalism where editors and reporters in the predominant media are content to reproduce material from government, party and partisan press releases, such external images will only serve to isolate this community even more. If this is the exact intent then it is the perfect image, otherwise the existing SWC logo is a better external imagery. This community doesn't need to be further isolated or demonised, instead we need to have greater acceptance and tolerance from the electoral public.

Those in power and the powers-to-be are totally commited to stubbing this community out. To give you an idea, this is an unsolicited SMS sent directly to my SMS inbox from a government agency... They don't even need the media any more as they are reaching out to you directly.

"From our cold dead hands" rings truer than you'll ever know as governments are playing a waiting game for this community to die off (via ever heavier taxes, old age and sickness) while trying to create a smoke-free generation.

My grandfather smoked cigars and pipes and part of the memories of him are the great aromas from the cigars and pipes he used to smoke. Nowadays, children are taught at a young age to have an instinctive dislike of aromas associated with tobacco. They have tried and failed to introduce tobacco-free generational legislation in Tasmania and Singapore but they will just keep on trying. With plain packaging in Oz, they have gained a firm foothold. It is now a game of one-upmanship amongst governments to introduce even harsher legislation.

[sabourin]

oh yes - definitely looks the part

[OZCUBAN]

This is a difficult question and a vexing one,I love the F.O.H logo the original Winnie one and the the current chimp version ,and the one with the monkey on it ( sorry Ken couldn't resist )

After careful thought I do agree with Ray about the latent imagery involved ,we don't want to portray ourselves as something we are not ,but also as Rob says we need to do something ,as we are being WELL AND TRULY OPPRESSED here in OZ.

Whilst in other countries you might think the anti Tobaccco lobby are persecuting you but believe me they haven't even started yet.

The need for action is immediate a call to arms if you will ,and in that sense the logo serves its purpose.

From my cold dead hands is quiet relevant here, bad things happen when good people do nothing

I love this organization and the people in it ,it has always been a greater sum than its parts ,and though Cigars are the central love it's not just about the Cigars ,if a militant approach is what is needed so be it ,let the battle lines be drawn

And anyhow I love to stir the pot LOL

[PigFish]

...well folks I love to stir the pot! It is even more fun when you are armed with a few facts.

This is a NAZI anti-smoking propaganda poster! Now can you have fun with this or what?

Photoshop in that PM of yours, drop the swastika and change it to the Ozzy flag under the eagle. Write in "Great Leaders Think Alike. " or some BS like that!!! Leave the German words so the link is made. Or how about this? Use a watermark type image of Uncle Adolf and Aunt (whatever her name is, your PM) shaking hands. Then put in the "Great Leaders Think Alike" line or some other trite catch phrase!

I mean the ideas are endless.

You wanna' tell the truth and piss people off at the same time...??? You should depict your rival as goose-stepping, gulag types, not yourselves.

Just a little fun from Mr. Piggy!

Cheers mates, and good luck with whatever you do. -Piggy

[Zacapa]

...well folks I love to stir the pot! It is even more fun when you are armed with a few facts.

This is a NAZI anti-smoking propaganda poster! Now can you have fun with this or what?

Photoshop in that PM of yours, drop the swastika and change it to the Ozzy flag under the eagle. Write in "Great Leaders Think Alike. " or some BS like that!!! Leave the German words so the link is made. Or how about this? Use a watermark type image of Uncle Adolf and Aunt (whatever her name is, your PM) shaking hands. Then put in the "Great Leaders Think Alike" line or some other trite catch phrase!

I mean the ideas are endless.

You wanna' tell the truth and piss people off at the same time...??? You should depict your rival as goose-stepping, gulag types, not yourselves.

Just a little fun from Mr. Piggy!

Cheers mates, and good luck with whatever you do. -Piggy

Oh so that clears up why you thought foh would be accused of being racist. Because you plan to associate the government with racism

[edlye]

Oh so that clears up why you thought foh would be accused of being racist. Because you plan to associate the government with racism

Hitler was one of the first prominent national leaders to advocate anti-tobacco measures and interfere with the personal lives of citizens. Please find out more about his anti-tobacco policies and compare it with your local measures.

[PigFish]

Oh so that clears up why you thought foh would be accused of being racist. Because you plan to associate the government with racism

Your opponent will do anything to win! I say all you have to do is tell the truth!!! I did not call anyone racist... I simply drew a parallel between two similar schools of thought. Whether your are a smoker or not, everyone should be concerned about the rights, innate rights governments strip from thier people and correlate it to past societies and past failures.

This is not about racism. It is not about smoking... It is about imperial governments overreaching and seizing power and wealth from a country. If you cannot make the link, your battle is already lost.

I did not create Nazi anti-smoking campaigns, nor do I agree with them. Governments do create anti-smoking campaigns and other unjust laws that treat citizens like lower forms of life. These are facts mate...

There are those I am sure in Oz who have said "could not happen here!" No, they will never destroy our guns. Guns gone! No, they won't take away our stogies... well they are going!!! What's next I wonder? How about telling you, you cannot burn wood or BBQ... It has been done in my country! How about telling restaurants they cannot use salt, or sell meals with toys? You think tyranny stops at cigars... Think again.

So you think I should paint them as Mary Poppins?

You know, the fact is, the correlation exists. Does it not? I am not creating, nor lying about anything. I am simply telling the story as it should be told. Sorry if my creative flair offends you!

My relatives fled Marxism from Europe. There is no doubt about how it works, why it works, and why it continues to work. Mainly because people are not taught history and they think, "it cannot happen here."

If you wish to win, tell the truth and teach history. Freedom is relatively new. Tyranny and oppressive governments are as old as the hills and they leave a trail of dead bodies for anyone to follow. If you are afraid to confront your opponent with the truth, he will simply lie about it and tag you with the first lie he can muster, the first chance he gets. That is the politics of the left my friend. If you cannot stand the heat, better step back and let them do what they want to you or get burned.

This is not about smoking, I will say it again. It is about masters and slaves. You just don't seem to realize it yet. It is hard to believe, I know. Hundreds of millions of dead people, probably also thought, "it can't happen here."

So you think I am a loon for making the comparison. Of course you do (rhetorically). You have been conditioned to think those who are concerned about rights and history are fanatics... The fanatics are the ones that have proven to be by history. I simply say look at the history of the fanatics and compare their actions to those of politicians today. There was a day when the worlds worst fanatics were not considered fanatics at all. Many were considered heroes of their time. When the hero turns fanatic it is too damn late. I say be vigilant and treat the infringement of any countryman's rights as a telltale sign.

-Ray