Puros Y Vino Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Frank, I hear you BUT . . . Drew Estate is also the main culprit when it comes to flavored cigars. The flavored cigars are what have been targeted recently by the government because they claim it attracts underage kids to start smoking. I have to take exception to the idea that a company making flavored cigars is what is bringing the strong arm of the government down on cigars. I hear you both. On the one hand, they are getting the new smokers via the ACID lines et al. I totally forgot they made those. . Then as per DM's comment, do they really have to bear the brunt of the government crackdown? Ideally, they shouldn't. So do "we" throw one product line/vendor under the bus to save the overall industry; or does everyone stand together and not allow any quarter be given? Governments anti-tobacco measures have always been slow and methodical. Take over one facet of the industry and then move on to the next until it's all gone. The "boiling frog" analogy so to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 In my opinion, the flavored cigars are just a convenient target. If not those, they'd find some other target. 'When the government came after the cigarettes, I remained silent, because I don't smoke cigarettes. Then when they came after the flavored cigars, I remained silent, because I don't smoke flavored cigars...' Acquiescing to the violation of another's liberty will never help to preserve your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 In my opinion, the flavored cigars are just a convenient target. If not those, they'd find some other target. Correct, but an easy target because they are marketed to a young, hip crowd that often includes people under age. If the marketing was towards a sophisticated (I did lol when I wrote that) more mature adult it would not be an easy target. The line of flavored cigars is pointed right at getting new people to start smoking. Which draws the govt microscope and bolsters the rallying cry of the tobacco hate gang. So since it is called a cigar, not a cigarette, non flavored cigars are going to be pushed up the line for taxation and bans. Cigarettes and chew would have been ground to dust before cigars otherwise, but still they would come after cigars next. I realize your point on the silence effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion21 Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 The silence effect is valid, but our position has already been "ground to dust" by the anti-smoking lobby and government agencies. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING, that draws attention to cigars and moves them inline with cigarettes is a bad thing for our hobby. Flavored cigars are exactly what these blood sucking ideologues can grab onto and say "See!! Cigar manufactures are just as bad has cigarette companies!" Our collective defense that cigars are purchased by a mature informed buyer who generally enjoys them occasionally and without inhaling flies right out the window when they can claim we target kids. It doesn't matter if it is true or not the burden of proof is then on us and the truth does not matter to them. Anyway, it was a VERY entertaining review guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 And for those who enjoy those cigars? What do you say to them? "Sorry, but kids were buying them, so you can't buy them anymore"? At some point people who have a conscience and value liberty need to take a principled stand. If you think that when the flavored cigars are gone they'll leave us alone, then I believe you're delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion21 Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I think the main disconnect is that you think taking a principled stand would do any good because there is still a fight to win. . . It won't my friend, freedom of choice is all well and good until they make want you want to buy illegal or tax it so highly you can't or won't buy it anymore. Tobacco products are very close to that status in some places around the world and moving that way in the US. No one in power will take a stand FOR tobacco after decades of anti-tobacco legislation and education. It's possible local politicians will stick their necks out for local business like cigar shops to keep them in business, but no one is going to run on a pro-cigar platform. In my location cigars are still taxed differently than cigarettes, much much lower. But if products like flavored cigars catch the attention of those who could use them to characterize cigars in the same way they do cigarettes we all lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Here in the US there is currently a fight going on. The FDA is proposing some crazy new rules, and some principled people are fighting it. Maybe this fight has been lost already in some other places, but here it's being fought right now. If your argument is that people should be free to do and buy and sell and make what they like, then that's a valid position. If your strategy is to suggest to the kidnapper which of the other hostages he should kill before you, then that isn't, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 What is with all the violence analogies? Orion is simply saying if you want to stop an avalanche with a paper plate, good on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Sorry if my analogies violated any delicate sensibilities. I understood what he said, and I pointed out he is wrong. This isn't a fight that's lost already, at least in my country it's a fight that's happening right now. Is it ok for me to use the word 'fight'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puros Y Vino Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Easy guys. Great arguments, just tone it down a little. I don't mind the analogies myself but for the sake of decorum, keep it civil. We're in someone else's "house" let's not forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Sorry if my analogies violated any delicate sensibilities. I understood what he said, and I pointed out he is wrong. This isn't a fight that's lost already, at least in my country it's a fight that's happening right now. Is it ok for me to use the word 'fight'? Haha. There is a difference between sensitivity and decorum. Sorry Frank had to point it out to you. Just because I ask a question doesn't mean I can't take it. Just wondering why they have to be in that format. Relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str8dog Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 ... so back to the Undercrown ... LOL, Rob and Ken, you guys crack me up! I sent these and a Simones to Ken as ride-alongs with some fishing tackle, assuming that he didn't a chance to sample too many NC's, never thinking that they'd get reviewed, (otherwise I'd'veve tracked down some T9's or T52's) but figured it'd be good for chits & giggles when Ken asked if it would be OK. As I mentioned to Ken, these are D.E.'s workin' man's cigar, of the Liga line, probably third tier, and certainly not the most complex smoke, but @ the $5/stick I paid for these, I get a kick out of them, if not for anything else but the sheer volume of smoke they produce. Having said that, I actually find the robusto has more character than the gran toro.. While I doubt that it would have changed the outcome of the review much, they probably would have benefited from some rest from their journey from Canada before smoking. It couldn't have been more than 2 days from the time they arrived until you fired them up. Anyway, it was a pleasure marching out the cannon fodder for Rob, lol. Cheers! Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Haha. There is a difference between sensitivity and decorum. Sorry Frank had to point it out to you. Just because I ask a question doesn't mean I can't take it. Just wondering why they have to be in that format. Relax. Fair enough, and I suppose you're entitled to an answer, your condescending tone notwithstanding. It seems a fair analogy to me because we're talking about people being prevented from being able to smoke the cigars hat they want to smoke, and we're talking about the government taking away a company's ability to do business. In that context, maybe you can explain why a violent analogy is inappropriate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCgarman Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Sorry but I have NEVER seen an underage kid in a walk in humidor looking to buy DE Acid flavored cigars. I think it is totally unfair to make Jonathon Drew a scapegoat for anything. Each of his product lines appeals to a certain niche in the cigar market. The flavored cigars marketed towards kids are the drugstore types and supermarket types. Most of your reputable B&M cigar stores would not even let a 15 year old inside their store, let alone inside a walk in humidor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Fair enough, and I suppose you're entitled to an answer, your condescending tone notwithstanding. It seems a fair analogy to me because we're talking about people being prevented from being able to smoke the cigars hat they want to smoke, and we're talking about the government taking away a company's ability to do business. In that context, maybe you can explain why a violent analogy is inappropriate? It was only inappropriate because of the large and open company of this forum. As Frank said, if you were at a friends house with their family it may be good to hold off on mentioning those violent acts, no matter the context used. In a private setting with your friends they probably don't care what you say. I pointed it out because we actually have ladies in this forum, real ladies that smoke cigars! Hate to have them feel alienated by a term that almost always hurts them. The tone was subtly snide because I don't feel like being talked down to twice when you didn't think about why I asked the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Sorry but I have NEVER seen an underage kid in a walk in humidor looking to buy DE Acid flavored cigars. I think it is totally unfair to make Jonathon Drew a scapegoat for anything. Each of his product lines appeals to a certain niche in the cigar market. The flavored cigars marketed towards kids are the drugstore types and supermarket types. Most of your reputable B&M cigar stores would not even let a 15 year old inside their store, let alone inside a walk in humidor. In our local B&M that is what almost every person under age 30 bought (you had to be 18 to buy but many were buying for friends). Because they were flavored something other than cigar flavored. I would go into the humidor when I saw the blank look in their eyes. Try to understand what they wanted. Hope to steer them into enjoying cigars, not fruity flavors. Without help they almost always bought infused cigars. Women always bought infused cigars. Call it marketing, presentation, youth, whatever. That held up at our shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tito Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I agree with the assessment of the UC offerings; they lack any sort of real depth or profile. I enjoyed the early Liga Privada No. 9's quite a bit (they've gone downhill recently), but the UC's never seem to offer even a remotely similar experience. I understand that it's a budget line, but was hoping for more out of something claiming to be a substitute for the LP No. 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lant63 Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Well I am 18, and I have never had in infused cigar until about two days ago and thought it was awful. It was too sweet and tasted foul. I put it out and proceeded to fire up a partagas short. My first cigar was a nc (la aroma de cuba mi amor) it was a good cigar but now that I started smoking cubans they are now almost all I smoke outside of the top shelf ligas, which i think are a mix of padron and fuente flavors, padrons and fuentes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith Posted July 2, 2013 Author Share Posted July 2, 2013 ... so back to the Undercrown ... LOL, Rob and Ken, you guys crack me up! I sent these and a Simones to Ken as ride-alongs with some fishing tackle, assuming that he didn't a chance to sample too many NC's, never thinking that they'd get reviewed, (otherwise I'd'veve tracked down some T9's or T52's) but figured it'd be good for chits & giggles when Ken asked if it would be OK. Anyway, it was a pleasure marching out the cannon fodder for Rob, lol. Cheers! Mark Mark, had I known this I would have put the good stuff in the review. At one stage Rob walks out, refuses to smoke more than three puffs of this cigar until Ken handed out good rum, both of them only wanted to smoke the first third and say they ran out of power. I was protecting your feelings in this review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollywood414 Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 See what non-Cubans do? They bring out the worst in all of us and make us fight with each other. Now I have another reason I don't like them anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenMonkey Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 It was only inappropriate because of the large and open company of this forum. As Frank said, if you were at a friends house with their family it may be good to hold off on mentioning those violent acts, no matter the context used. In a private setting with your friends they probably don't care what you say. I pointed it out because we actually have ladies in this forum, real ladies that smoke cigars! Hate to have them feel alienated by a term that almost always hurts them. The tone was subtly snide because I don't feel like being talked down to twice when you didn't think about why I asked the question. Yeah, I think you just need to relax, there was nothing offensive about my comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Gargett Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Mark, had I known this I would have put the good stuff in the review. At one stage Rob walks out, refuses to smoke more than three puffs of this cigar until Ken handed out good rum, both of them only wanted to smoke the first third and say they ran out of power. I was protecting your feelings in this review. be fair. i said some nice(ish) things. it was a perfectly pleasant smoke, as i said, but no great heights and from reading above, probably not the intention. mark, thanks very much - had no idea rob would be so lacking in manners. i am appalled. as for the stuff re the flavoured cigars, it seems such a tiny minor side issue - but that is from an outsider. if there is a market, they can knock themselves out. but no one forced to buy them. and i can't see that you can legitimately blame them for any of the issues of the anti-smoking lobby/smoking lobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
str8dog Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 be fair. i said some nice(ish) things. it was a perfectly pleasant smoke, as i said, but no great heights and from reading above, probably not the intention. mark, thanks very much - had no idea rob would be so lacking in manners. i am appalled. LOL, Ken, you tried your hardest to squeeze at least one good word out of Rob, so thanks for that. A review that's based on sparing someones feelings is hardly a review. My time spent elsewhere has thickened my skin so it takes more than this to vex me, lol! Cheers guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Presidente Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 LOL, Ken, you tried your hardest to squeeze at least one good word out of Rob, so thanks for that. A review that's based on sparing someones feelings is hardly a review. My time spent elsewhere has thickened my skin so it takes more than this to vex me, lol! Cheers guys! Thanks Mark! Mate I really appreciated the opportunity to try it. My opinion is near worthless !LOL! I always try to call it as I see it and I have bagged many a Cuban cigar +HSA+ myself + Ken However, the spirit of generosity is never forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanejsl Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I've never had an Undercrown, but I personally like the Drew Estate Liga Privada #9. I always keep some of them on hand in the humi. Agree with this. The undercrown is underwhelming. The #9 is tasty though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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