Hunting camp 2013

[jrb5783]

Annual hunting camp begins tonight, many cigars will be consumed oh and we do some hunting every once in awhile.

This may or may not contain pictures of guns and deer that have moved onto another life so if that may offend you refrain from viewing this thread the next few days

First cigar

[Garnerinho]

Nice cigar and good luck hunting this week.

[Ken Gargett]

This may or may not contain pictures of guns and deeds that have moved onto another life so if may be offended refrain from viewing this thread the next few days

so the onus is now on the person who may be offended? seriously?

you'll happily post knowing you might offend. and the blame goes to the offended. interesting world.

i hope the only thing killed are idiot hunters.

and if that offends, don't read it.

[Ophidion]

This was started after the nastiest jls2 I've ever had. Two years has done wonders to this smoke.

[oliverdst]

I wouldn't say that target shooting is hunting - "hunters" will disagree.

And, yes, I am offended when I see people "hunting" just for fun.

Animal cruelty has nothing to do with fun or at least shouldn't.

[Ophidion]

Yeah I don't plan on posting pictures of any deer I take I just post the stogies and beautiful scenery.

[El Presidente]

People are very passionate on this issue.

I hunt and fish. I haven't been on a hunt in some time. I look forward to doing so again.

I have some personal rules which are entirely hypocritical.

* I hunt 99 % of the time only feral animals (declared pests such as pigs/goats/rabbits). I am sure it is not the fault of these animals that they are declared pests.

* Should I shoot a something else I only shoot to take back and eat. Always, never more than is needed. Same with fishing. It is 99% catch and release unless I keep it to eat.

It really turns my stomach to see photo's of "hunt for fun" spread kills. Likewise with "fish" spread catch photo's showing 30-40-50 fish all laid out with all the likelihood they will spend 6 months in the freezer (maybe) before being thrown out.

No one needs to heed my own hypocritical standards. I just would like to be spared the photo's of "Bambi massacre III" if I could

Hunt, enjoy, be safe. Spend time with mates. Try and spare us the "kill" photo shoot knowing full well it upsets a significant proportion of members. let commonsense prevail as I am sure you will.

[El Presidente]

Yeah I don't plan on posting pictures of any deer I take I just post the stogies and beautiful scenery.

Perfect

[Skyfall]

Good luck Jace and Kevin, I hope you bag your limit!!! Hunting Camp is about far more than just the hunt. I for one would love to see pictures. I've had one of the best all around hunting seasons of my life so far, so I get it, but you better not post any,as to not offend those that.........nevermind......this isn't going to end up well if I continue on with what I want to say, so I will refrain and leave it at this:

We were all raised differntly in different cultures,differing backgrounds on what is normal to them, different geographic regions, and environments, I guess I will go to my grave never understanding why there are those in the world who try to force thier "norms" on everyone else who has thier own "norms". I don't believe someone should guilt-trip or attack something that is very normal and accepted in another's culture and heritage. To me it is abnormal and very much the minority not to hunt and see pictures of it everywhere. In my town there are pictures of the season's kills in all of the gas stations, Walmarts, Outdoor Supply stores, Car Washes, Farm Supply Stores and of course on Facebook.

Hunting is fun, it's supposed to be!

People hunt for a variety of reasons:

Food

Income

Sport

Nuisance

Predatory

Protection of Property

Trophy

Wildlife Management

Overpopulation

Ect.

But it's all fun and it's all more humane than 99% of slughterhouses, commercial farms, stock yards, and processing plants.

There are aspects to other people's cultures that I don't understand, and differ from my norm and my culture, but I don't attack them about it.

(Ken's just pissy becuase the Redskins got absolutely screwed by the refs on the last 2 plays of the game!)

[Ken Gargett]

Good luck Jace and Kevin, I hope you bag your limit!!! Hunting Camp is about far more than just the hunt. I for one would love to see pictures. I've had one of the best all around hunting seasons of my life so far, so I get it, but you better not post any,as to not offend those that.........nevermind......this isn't going to end up well if I continue on with what I want to say, so I will refrain and leave it at this:

We were all raised differntly in different cultures,differing backgrounds on what is normal to them, different geographic regions, and environments, I guess I will go to my grave never understanding why there are those in the world who try to force thier "norms" on everyone else who has thier own "norms". I don't believe someone should guilt-trip or attack something that is very normal and accepted in another's culture and heritage. To me it is abnormal and very much the minority not to hunt and see pictures of it everywhere. In my town there are pictures of the season's kills in all of the gas stations, Walmarts, Outdoor Supply stores, Car Washes, Farm Supply Stores and of course on Facebook.

Hunting is fun, it's supposed to be!

People hunt for a variety of reasons:

Food

Income

Sport

Nuisance

Predatory

Protection of Property

Trophy

Wildlife Management

Overpopulation

Ect.

But it's all fun and it's all more humane than 99% of slughterhouses, commercial farms, stock yards, and processing plants.

There are aspects to other people's cultures that I don't understand, and differ from my norm and my culture, but I don't attack them about it.

this is one rare thing on which you and i disagree. completely and utterly.

i have never said that all shooting should be banned or is evil or whatever. pest control, for feral animals, for food in certain circumstances - no issue whatsoever. indeed, i wish our govts would arrange for a lot more shooting of feral animals.

but that is not the issue here.

"But it's all fun".

no, it is cruel, barbaric and cowardly. i bet the wildlife sit around at night thinking just how much fun it would be to be gut-shot and crawl off into the bush to die slowly and agonisingly. shot from a distance. didn't even know it was all part of the "fun".

as for 'forcing norms', i understand what you are saying but if that didn't happen occasionally, i assume it would be okay if chunks of europe were jewish-free zones ruled by nazis? extreme example, of course, but there are endless examples throughout history where societies have "evolved" and decided what was once acceptable is no longer.

and just in case there is any doubt, guys, i seriously hope you shoot each other.

[El Presidente]

..,,,,I assume the Redskins lost

[Jeremy Festa]

Good luck Jace and Kevin, I hope you bag your limit!!! Hunting Camp is about far more than just the hunt. I for one would love to see pictures. I've had one of the best all around hunting seasons of my life so far, so I get it, but you better not post any,as to not offend those that.........nevermind......this isn't going to end up well if I continue on with what I want to say, so I will refrain and leave it at this:

We were all raised differntly in different cultures,differing backgrounds on what is normal to them, different geographic regions, and environments, I guess I will go to my grave never understanding why there are those in the world who try to force thier "norms" on everyone else who has thier own "norms". I don't believe someone should guilt-trip or attack something that is very normal and accepted in another's culture and heritage. To me it is abnormal and very much the minority not to hunt and see pictures of it everywhere. In my town there are pictures of the season's kills in all of the gas stations, Walmarts, Outdoor Supply stores, Car Washes, Farm Supply Stores and of course on Facebook.

Hunting is fun, it's supposed to be!

People hunt for a variety of reasons:

Food

Income

Sport

Nuisance

Predatory

Protection of Property

Trophy

Wildlife Management

Overpopulation

Ect.

But it's all fun and it's all more humane than 99% of slughterhouses, commercial farms, stock yards, and processing plants.

There are aspects to other people's cultures that I don't understand, and differ from my norm and my culture, but I don't attack them about it.

(Ken's just pissy becuase the Redskins got absolutely screwed by the refs on the last 2 plays of the game!)

Mate, good points, of some I agree, but please do not forget that some people's and cultural norms are just plain wrong and in-humane and should be confronted head-on.

Hunting for food and protection of native species is fine. For sport and trophy, definitely not.

The reason we play sport, and in particular team sports, is in someway a civilized replacement of our primal urge to hunt, and not forgetting tribal warfare.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skyfall]

..,,,,I assume the Redskins lost

Not only lost, but got completely screwed by the Refs for the last 2 plays of the game!!!

[Ken Gargett]

..,,,,I assume the Redskins lost

you'd already emailed me five times about the skins!

seriously, you'd think we were playing for draft picks - if we had any.

all this does is make next year's come from nowhere win in the superbowl even sweeter.

[Skyfall]

Ken, we can agree to disagree, I don't feel the need to force my opinons or views on you. I don't try to propaganda new hunters as others try to change hunters into non hunters. I will respectfully say this: your lack of knowledge and understanding on hunting and its humanities and your falsly aforementioned accusation of "cruelty" is astonishing.

A debate with someone about something they don't understand, is initself "dead in the water" before it starts. (pun intended)

I didn't think I needed to state this, but I figure I do now, I should have clarified at the beginning that I do not feel that humans and animals are equal in any form. (Didn't really think that needed to be conveyed, but I guess it does)

[Ken Gargett]

Ken, we can agree to disagree, I don't feel the need to force my opinons or views on you. I don't try to propaganda new hunters as others try to change hunters into non hunters. I will respectfully say this: your lack of knowledge and understanding on hunting and its humanities and your falsly aforementioned accusation of "cruelty" is astonishing.

A debate with someone about something they don't understand, is initself "dead in the water" before it starts. (pun intended)

I didn't think I needed to state this, but I figure I do now, I should have clarified at the beginning that I do not feel that humans and animals are equal in any form. (Didn't really think that needed to be conveyed, but I guess it does)

on this, we'll always disagree - no issue about that.

as i have said to rob many times, i don't initiate gun/hunting/slaughter threads/posts etc but i will respond. i have also told him that if he wants his to be a forum that promotes this, no problem. i'll simply go elsewhere. but until then, i will respond as i believe appropriate.

but to me it is so far beyond astonishing that you could possibly think that cruelty doesn't apply. crippling an animal, causing it intense pain, a slow death? if that is not extraordinarily cruel, we have different dictionaries.

in not equating animals/humans - no argument - you'd like to think that perhaps humans could act in a manner elevating them to some form of higher plane. the way a great many humans act, sadly that is not so. and i put hunters firmly in that.

"hunting and its humanities" - a new contender for oxymoron of the decade! with respect, using language like that does not disguise the brutal, barbaric and indeed inhumane aspects of this.

as for the 'you don't/can't understand' argument, touch ingenuous. i don't understand how to detonate a nuclear warhead but i reckon i can legitimately argue it is not a good thing.

i do understand cruelty, thoughtlessness, barbarism, slaughter so i reckon i have as much understanding as i need for this argument.

[Skyfall]

on this, we'll always disagree - no issue about that.

as i have said to rob many times, i don't initiate gun/hunting/slaughter threads/posts etc but i will respond. i have also told him that if he wants his to be a forum that promotes this, no problem. i'll simply go elsewhere. but until then, i will respond as i believe appropriate.

but to me it is so far beyond astonishing that you could possibly think that cruelty doesn't apply. crippling an animal, causing it intense pain, a slow death? if that is not extraordinarily cruel, we have different dictionaries.

in not equating animals/humans - no argument - you'd like to think that perhaps humans could act in a manner elevating them to some form of higher plane. the way a great many humans act, sadly that is not so. and i put hunters firmly in that.

"hunting and its humanities" - a new contender for oxymoron of the decade! with respect, using language like that does not disguise the brutal, barbaric and indeed inhumane aspects of this.

as for the 'you don't/can't understand' argument, touch ingenuous. i don't understand how to detonate a nuclear warhead but i reckon i can legitimately argue it is not a good thing.

i do understand cruelty, thoughtlessness, barbarism, slaughter so i reckon i have as much understanding as i need for this argument.

What I think is silly is you are so staunch on your stance, yet you eat meat from restaurants and supermarkets where the animals are raised, kept and killed 100 times more cruel, barbaric than animals that die by hunters.

If your logic and stance is defiant of hypocrisy, then you should be an avid practicing vegan!

FYI - when I shoot my game, it dies immediately, no chase, no struggle, no pain, instant death, none of this can be said about the places where you source your meat! In many parts of my area, more deer starve to death each year than die by hunters. Many others get hit by cars or ravaged by coyotes. Overpopulation is a problem. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a bullet to the spine for instant, pain free death, than starve and torment for months before I die.

[Ken Gargett]

What I think is silly is you are so staunch on your stance, yet you eat meat from restaurants and supermarkets where the animals are raised, kept and killed 100 times more cruel, barbaric than animals that die by hunters.

If your logic and stance is defiant of hypocrisy, then you should be an avid practicing vegan!

FYI - when I shoot my game, it dies immediately, no chase, no struggle, no pain, instant death, none of this can be said about the places where you source your meat! In many parts of my area, more deer starve to death each year than die by hunters. Many others get hit by cars or ravaged by coyotes. Overpopulation is a problem. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a bullet to the spine for instant, pain free death, than starve and torment for months before I die.

i understand we'll never agree on this. and i have said that issues like feral animals, control and in some instances, food are things with which i have no issue at all.

the vegan issue makes absolutely no sense to me at all. heard all that before but it seems to me to be nothing more than a means of justification for hunters. and using the argument that nature is cruel is hardly relevant.

you're suggesting you've never had anything but a perfect killing shot. ever? i have no reason to doubt that and there may be others as good but that does not apply to everyone or anything like that.

more than happy to keep responding but have to shoot off now - not running away - so it will have to be tomorrow.

[Skyfall]

i understand we'll never agree on this. and i have said that issues like feral animals, control and in some instances, food are things with which i have no issue at all.

the vegan issue makes absolutely no sense to me at all. heard all that before but it seems to me to be nothing more than a means of justification for hunters. and using the argument that nature is cruel is hardly relevant.

you're suggesting you've never had anything but a perfect killing shot. ever? i have no reason to doubt that and there may be others as good but that does not apply to everyone or anything like that.

more than happy to keep responding but have to shoot off now - not running away - so it will have to be tomorrow.

It makes complete sense, your stance is based on Cruelty :: Therefore you should adhore commercially raised and slughtered meat :: therefore you should be a stauch vegan.

end of discussion

[assassin]

Annual hunting camp begins tonight, many cigars will be consumed oh and we do some hunting every once in awhile.

This may or may not contain pictures of guns and deer that have moved onto another life so if that may offend you refrain from viewing this thread the next few days

First cigar

Happy hunting mate looks like your off to a fine start with the cigars. Good luck and stay safe.

[Ken Gargett]

It makes complete sense, your stance is based on Cruelty :: Therefore you should adhore commercially raised and slughtered meat :: therefore you should be a stauch vegan.

end of discussion

Most certainly not. That is part of it but hardly all. It is simply the tack that this thread has taken.

Many reasons.

You speak of control, rightly so (though surely this has to be done by professionals and not left to the whim of those that might feel like killing a few animals when it suits them), but hunting has caused/is leading to extinction and irretrievable damage to many ecosystems (not all hunters may be as “ethical” as yourself). Does anyone seriously think that all “permitted” killing won't impact adversely on the environment and species/survival in the future? Humans and animals may be different but what gives one group of humans the right to diminish the world for others? Because that is exactly what is happening.

We could mention fatalities caused by hunters. Now, I have no problem with hunters shooting themselves and each other, indeed I encourage it, but tragically not all deaths caused by hunters are the participants. I believe in the States alone, 100-150 people are killed annually in hunting accidents – and many thousands more injured. And I believe that studies have shown that car accidents involving deer (and similar arguments for similar creatures) in deer hunting regions, increase during the season as deer are flushed from their normal areas out on to roads etc. I’m sure that the bereaved are comforted by the fact that the, what, 5-6% of American who hunt get to do so.

“But it is sport” goes the cry. No, it is not. Sport involves competition between two or more consenting parties, there are rules, fairness, but hardly the death of an unwilling/unknown participant, especially when the hunter does not, in turn, put their life on the line, as they force the animal to do, unless we get lucky with one of those hunting accidents.

We could chat about the influence that guns and hunting have had on societies, because it has worked out so well over there. No suggestion that hunting is the only cause of the gun issues in the States but there can hardly be any doubt as to their contribution

As for the cruelty arguments, a quick whizz around the net has endless stats (I’m sure there are just as many justifying the cruelty if one wished to look). It does seem not all hunters are as proficient as yourself.

“A study of 80 radio-collared white-tailed deer found that of the 22 deer who had been shot with “traditional archery equipment,” 11 were wounded but not recovered by hunters. Twenty percent of foxes who have been wounded by hunters are shot again. Just 10 percent manage to escape, but “starvation is a likely fate” for them, according to one veterinarian. A South Dakota Department of Game, Fish and Parks biologist estimates that more than 3 million wounded ducks go “un-retrieved” every year. A British study of deer hunting found that 11 percent of deer who’d been killed by hunters died only after being shot two or more times and that some wounded deer suffered for more than 15 minutes before dying.” I completely agree we can't equate animals and humans. Sadly, we are the bottom of the barrel.

The food argument does tend to fly away when one considers 3 million un-retrieved ducks a year.

I could go on, but I really do have to bolt. Happy to continue tomorrow.

[Skyfall]

.....derailed

Most certainly not. That is part of it but hardly all. It is simply the tack that this thread has taken.

Many reasons.

You speak of control, rightly so (though surely this has to be done by professionals and not left to the whim of those that might feel like killing a few animals when it suits them), but hunting has caused/is leading to extinction and irretrievable damage to many ecosystems (not all hunters may be as “ethical” as yourself). Does anyone seriously think that all “permitted” killing won't impact adversely on the environment and species/survival in the future? Humans and animals may be different but what gives one group of humans the right to diminish the world for others? Because that is exactly what is happening.

We could mention fatalities caused by hunters. Now, I have no problem with hunters shooting themselves and each other, indeed I encourage it, but tragically not all deaths caused by hunters are the participants. I believe in the States alone, 100-150 people are killed annually in hunting accidents – and many thousands more injured. And I believe that studies have shown that car accidents involving deer (and similar arguments for similar creatures) in deer hunting regions, increase during the season as deer are flushed from their normal areas out on to roads etc. I’m sure that the bereaved are comforted by the fact that the, what, 5-6% of American who hunt get to do so.

“But it is sport” goes the cry. No, it is not. Sport involves competition between two or more consenting parties, there are rules, fairness, but hardly the death of an unwilling/unknown participant, especially when the hunter does not, in turn, put their life on the line, as they force the animal to do, unless we get lucky with one of those hunting accidents.

We could chat about the influence that guns and hunting have had on societies, because it has worked out so well over there. No suggestion that hunting is the only cause of the gun issues in the States but there can hardly be any doubt as to their contribution

As for the cruelty arguments, a quick whizz around the net has endless stats (I’m sure there are just as many justifying the cruelty if one wished to look). It does seem not all hunters are as proficient as yourself.

“A study of 80 radio-collared white-tailed deer found that of the 22 deer who had been shot with “traditional archery equipment,” 11 were wounded but not recovered by hunters. Twenty percent of foxes who have been wounded by hunters are shot again. Just 10 percent manage to escape, but “starvation is a likely fate” for them, according to one veterinarian. A South Dakota Department of Game, Fish and Parks biologist estimates that more than 3 million wounded ducks go “un-retrieved” every year. A British study of deer hunting found that 11 percent of deer who’d been killed by hunters died only after being shot two or more times and that some wounded deer suffered for more than 15 minutes before dying.” I completely agree we can't equate animals and humans. Sadly, we are the bottom of the barrel.

The food argument does tend to fly away when one considers 3 million un-retrieved ducks a year.

I could go on, but I really do have to bolt. Happy to continue tomorrow.

....derailed

[El Presidente]

ken

You speak of control, rightly so (though surely this has to be done by professionals and not left to the whim of those that might feel like killing a few animals when it suits them),

Seriously? Have you seen vid's of a slaughterhouse most parts of the world?

I would rather take my chance with Skyfall in an open field than a grass fed deer in a feedlot. i mean seriously, what is the chance of him shooting straight?. "gut shot" ....possibility (butt shot more likely), yet better than "occcasionally" stunned before throat slit and hung in a professional operation.

I go back to hypocrisy in all this. There is vegan or nothing. The rest is playing around the edges.

[Dimmers]

I soo dont want to bite (pun intended haha).

As to the "you are a hypocrite unless you're a vegan" angle........ i respectfully disagree.

Two main differences:

1. food for mass consumption is regulated/policed much more than any regulation/policing for sport hunting. Mass consumption food should be regulated much much 'better' but that is a separate argument/ muchos political issues involved.

2. Sport hunters derive somewhat of a pleasure in the catch/kill. Im not saying its the overriding motivation but its there, and thats why many find sport hunting so distasteful (me included).

Im a meat eater but anti hunting (except fishing, I love fishing). So Im a hypocritc to some no doubt.

This thread has made me rather hungry I must say....

[Ken Gargett]

ken

You speak of control, rightly so (though surely this has to be done by professionals and not left to the whim of those that might feel like killing a few animals when it suits them),

Seriously? Have you seen vid's of a slaughterhouse most parts of the world?

I would rather take my chance with Skyfall in an open field than a grass fed deer in a feedlot. i mean seriously, what is the chance of him shooting straight?. "gut shot" ....possibility (butt shot more likely), yet better than "occcasionally" stunned before throat slit and hung in a professional operation.

I go back to hypocrisy in all this. There is vegan or nothing. The rest is playing around the edges.

okay, i really have to leave this forum after this post but this nonsense demands a response.

i would also add that, particularly as there are people involved in this debate whom i do greatly respect and consider mates, if long distance ones (thereby deliberately ruling out ....), i am being as civil and polite as possible. but you have tipped the scales. what monumental and complete utter gibbering rubbish. did you think (or drink) before you posted that arrant nonsense?

the issue of feed lots/abbatoirs/slaughter houses etc and killing farm bred animals for food is a complete, discrete, unrelated issue.

unless you and skyfall have found some secret forest with wild chooks and hidden cows, it is irrelevant. may i state here that i have just as many issues with slaughter houses as anyone (well, perhaps not as many the fruitcake vegan lobby) and indeed, if you spend any time in restaurant kitchens, you'd be just as horrified (also irrelevant, by the way). that vegan crap is nothing but a distraction put forward by certain hunters (in this case, you) in a forlorn and pathetic attempt to divert attention from the real issues.

at no stage have i raised the issues of farm animals, animals bred solely for the purpose of feeding humanity and cruelty to them or not. there are certainly valid concerns re these establishments but they have bugger all to do with hunting. you have chosen, with no valid reasoning, to link them. the only hypocrisy here is that of disingenuous hunters diverting from real issues.

with whatever last vestiges of respect that remain, your post is such utter stupidity that i am already regretting wasting my time in responding.

till tomorrow (rob, please don't post any further idiot rubbish as i really don't have time to waste responding and who could help themselves after that).