Drew's walk-in-humidor build


superconductor71

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So after reviewing this section over and over, drooling over the beautiful humidors, whether walk-in's, desktops, or the beautiful Aristocrats, I was rooting around in the back of the unfinished part of my basement and really stumbled upon what I think is the perfect space for a walk-in.....and thought, "Why not?"

The space is, as mentioned, in the basement is 20' L by 6' W with 9' ceilings. I'm thinking of just carving a nice 4X6 or 6X6 space out and working with that. My brother is a professional contractor and was more than happy to help me plan this. This section of the basement is literally all concrete walls, and is really the coolest part of the house. As is, with no insulation it's about 55F (and it's about 6F outside at the moment).

I do have a good local source for Spanish Cedar, so i'm good with that, just checking price.

It will all be framed and vapor wrapped but not sealing the door.

I am thinking of using the Staebell E700 humidifier:

I had spoken to my local tobacconist and he of course mentioned Stulz humidifiers, but their smallest system, a 4 nozzle, was close to 4K.....WAY out of my range.

Anyway, I have done research on this, checked out all the helpful threads here and think I have a good starting spot, but I do have a few questions that maybe those that have done this can shed some light on:

The local tobacconist states that in his walk-in, while the entire thing is vapor sealed, there needs to be a way for humidity to escape, or in the summer it will become unmanageable. He says that is why the door is left "unsealed". Is that the best way to do it? Does there need to be fresh air fed to the humidification system?

The second question is in regards to temperature. I wasn't really planning on adding any additional a/c or heating as it is in a good part of the basement. In the finished area it is consistently at a good 67F. Is heating or cooling something I need to consider? I'm in PA and temperatures are fairly mild and the basement is pretty consistent overall. If there is a heatwave, house AC is on.

Any other suggestions, thoughts?

Below are is a picture of the space. Please excuse the mess, it was literally taken this morning and I haven't had a chance to clear the spot. As a side note, my wife is pretty much on board as she's been after me to trash all the junk in that spot to begin with.

Thanks in advance for any help!

RWZlJZM.jpg

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I don't have a lot of time to spend on this topic today, I have a lot of work to do but here are a couple of suggestions.

You need to design a humidor for the ambient conditions, OR design one generically that will counteract most or all of the ambient conditions that you expect to find.

Your tobacconist has a great point but only answered half the question!

Have you moisture checked the concrete? Are you sure it is impervious to external water? Consider furring the wall and adding a further vapor barrier such as Tyvek. I would consider constructing my interior walls with Densglass.

I see a water heater. Natural gas and propane are typically 'oderized.' Some of the odor survives the combustion process. Are you sure you want that odor in your unsealed humidor? How does that basement smell?

A complete plan will be built around the means to heat, cool, humidify and dehumidify your space. If you going to go though the trouble, why make a half assed attempt at it?

If you are handy will electrical appliances, an ultrasonic humidifier can be had at most of the chain stores for $40 to $60 bucks. Open it up and rewire it to accept a start signal form a logic controller and you now are in business! No 4K humidifier required!

Ambient water vapor, depending on your data logs of the space during the most humid time of year will likely result in over humidification. You must have a means to control that if that problem will exist for you. If the space never increases in temp above your set point, a dehumidifier will work. ALL SEALED SPACES WILL OVER-HUMIDIFY IF THERE IS A FREE WATER SOURCE IN THEM! This is unless there is a dehumidifying process at work, such as an active cooler.

A unified solution will like be your best solution. You need a logic controller that will control your set points within reason of your budget and appliances.

I would install a small ceiling fan that you can leave running 24/7 to combat stratification of your environment.

I, personally, would not store my cigars at these temperatures.

Good luck on your project. -The Pig

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… one remaining thought. Does this space have a sump pump? How would you feel if you lost 50K in cigar to a broken water heater? They do break. One more argument for a sealed space, perhaps on a floated or concrete pad above the level of the sump pump!

Cheers! -the Pig

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Regarding Humidification:

Like Ray said, just get a decent Ultrasonic Humidifier and plug it into this.

http://www.grainger....r-Control-1UHG3

and throw one of these in the corner.

http://www.amazon.co...small tower fan

And definitely put a moisture barrier between the existing walls and your humidor walls.

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Have you moisture checked the concrete? Are you sure it is impervious to external water? Consider furring the wall and adding a further vapor barrier such as Tyvek. I would consider constructing my interior walls with Densglass.

I see a water heater. Natural gas and propane are typically 'oderized.' Some of the odor survives the combustion process. Are you sure you want that odor in your unsealed humidor? How does that basement smell?

A complete plan will be built around the means to heat, cool, humidify and dehumidify your space. If you going to go though the trouble, why make a half assed attempt at it?

If you are handy will electrical appliances, an ultrasonic humidifier can be had at most of the chain stores for $40 to $60 bucks. Open it up and rewire it to accept a start signal form a logic controller and you now are in business! No 4K humidifier required!

Ambient water vapor, depending on your data logs of the space during the most humid time of year will likely result in over humidification. You must have a means to control that if that problem will exist for you. If the space never increases in temp above your set point, a dehumidifier will work. ALL SEALED SPACES WILL OVER-HUMIDIFY IF THERE IS A FREE WATER SOURCE IN THEM! This is unless there is a dehumidifying process at work, such as an active cooler.

A unified solution will like be your best solution. You need a logic controller that will control your set points within reason of your budget and appliances.

I would install a small ceiling fan that you can leave running 24/7 to combat stratification of your environment.

I, personally, would not store my cigars at these temperatures.

Good luck on your project. -The Pig

Excellent points, PigFish and I was hoping you would respond. I have gone through many MANY of your posts and advice here, and while alot of it can be intimidating in it's complexity, I have always given your posts multiple reads. I can appreciate your approach to quantitatively determining the situation and then building your solution based upon those results. I may not be able to replicate all you do, but I appreciate your points enough to do the best I can. Let me respond to each of your points......

I, personally, have not done any quantitative testing regarding moisture on the walls. However, this home was custom built by us about 10 years ago and the majority of the basement is finished as part of pre-delivery construction. The walls were supposedly sealed (at least that is what I paid for, and still am with the mortgage!) and in the 10 years we've been here there has NEVER, not once, been any additional moisture issues in this basement. Even during the weeklong flooding storms we've had...this basement has been rock solid and dry. Regarding those walls in particular in the unfinished portion, same thing....absolutely zero moisture..ever. It has always felt even more dry than other places in the house. I'm not sure what I can do to quantitatively log about any moisture in this section of the basement, but I can say with no uncertainty that there has never been any moisture on the walls or floor.

The basement also smells good....no additional scents. But your point regarding the water heater is well taken...(more on this to follow below)

Definitely NOT going to go "half-assed" about it.....rather, a term that we like to use in Information Technology when designing things on a budget is "Value Engineering". I'm taking this approach to it...I want it to be done right, but not just throw money at it.

The ceiling fan is an excellent idea...and regarding the humidification...wouldn't one of the "Set and Forget" Staebell humidification options work? That accomplishes what i'm looking to do, correct? In terms of a "unified solution, do you mean something where I have both humidifier and de-humidifier wired to humistats? I was thinking about also putting in a de-humidifier with logic in there.

Regarding temperatures....that reading is literally the coldest that that portion of the basement has ever been. Once walled up and sealed, dont you think the temperatures will become stable?

… one remaining thought. Does this space have a sump pump? How would you feel if you lost 50K in cigar to a broken water heater? They do break. One more argument for a sealed space, perhaps on a floated or concrete pad above the level of the sump pump!

Cheers! -the Pig

Now THIS was a big concern and not something I hadn't thought of! I should have known that you would see it :) I spoke at length to my contractor brother and the room will be a minimum of 4" off the ground, and the floor itself will be insulated. He has stated that he can absolutely make the bottom watertight, so that any water leak from the water heater will simply flood around the room, but never getting in or under.

Regarding Humidification:

Like Ray said, just get a decent Ultrasonic Humidifier and plug it into this.

http://www.grainger....r-Control-1UHG3

and throw one of these in the corner.

http://www.amazon.co...small tower fan

And definitely put a moisture barrier between the existing walls and your humidor walls.

That is part of the design.....as my brother liked to put it "we will seal the **** out of this baby".

What is the difference between one of the Staebell (Aristocrat) humidifiers and an ultrasonic?

Thank you both for taking the time to put your advice......i'm definitely incorporating your suggestions.

~Drew

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What is the difference between one of the Staebell (Aristocrat) humidifiers and an ultrasonic?

Thank you both for taking the time to put your advice......i'm definitely incorporating your suggestions.

~Drew

Hundreds and Hundreds of Dollars, you can pick up a decent humidifier for $30-$40 bucks.

Bob's shop is just right down the road from me.

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First you have to understand that I sell competing equipment to Bob's. As a result, I prefer my own equipment.

I prefer a unified, certifiable solution. You can contact me off the board if you would like this explained further.

The problem with any "wick-type" humidifier, like Bob's or mine, is that they will continue to free water via evaporation into your space any time that water is in it. This is not a problem if you have the means to dehumidify and the container (humidor) is sealed. This is why your tobacconist recommended not sealing the humidor. Unfortunately his advice assumed that the exterior of your humidor is always dryer AND diffusion of the humidor will always be greater than the natural evaporation of your humidifier.

The half-assed comment was not to be offensive. I am talking off the cuff!

I would use a concrete pad, which you can certainly pour yourself to lift the bottom of the humidor off the floor. You can further hot mop or use another means to seal that further if necessary. I would be concerned about a break in the water heater. I would further install a small catch basin with a small sump pump to remove water in case of any leak. You could find yourself (if you don't have already) a tidy sum of cigars in that space overtime. Any extended exposure to steam and water could do considerable damage. The half-assed comment referred to thinking of all the problems that can happen in any situation where steam, flames, and water could affect your cigars. It looks like you are already thinking that way…

The reason that I would prefer a sonic humidifier here is due to the fact that I think, you would have less free evaporation out of that type of unit. I also have considerable experience with "wick-type" units and they have certain limitations based on the size of the environment that they can humidify.

Frankly I would design a system here that would, sense the environment and be adjusted from outside the room, run the appliances that you choose to cycle based on the sensor that is reporting the conditions inside. The appliances and the functions would depend on my budget but I would control, heat (hot and cold), and humidity and dehumidify…

First you really need to data log the environment in order to save the most money. If that is not a part of the plan, you should build a system that covers all four settings; high and low humidity, high and low temperature.

Anyway… That is how I would do it!

Cheers, -Piggy

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Hundreds and Hundreds of Dollars, you can pick up a decent humidifier for $30-$40 bucks.

Bob's shop is just right down the road from me.

Not so Dave!

You can get these and similar items all over the place. I actually run items like these in my house to keep my woodwork from getting destroyed! I am big on rH control as you know!!!

http://www.costco.com/pureguardian™-12-Hour-Ultrasonic-Table-Top-Humidifier-2-pack.product.100082300.html

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First off, Piggy....not once did I take the "half assed" comment in any other way than as you intended smile.png It was off the cuff, indeed, and definitely taken as such....but the point is a valid one. And while I am not going to do it any other way but "right" (even if value engineered for budget), I do very much get the point about the perils of doing this project half-assed.

In another part of my basement I designed and built a 200 gallon in-wall Marine Reef environment. Believe me when I tell you that THAT "ecosystem" is a far more advanced and "picky" environment then this will be. Not to take it lightly, but the science behind that project was (and continues to be) a very complicated endeavour. There were many options in doing that, and some of them involved just tossing money at it, but I preferred a much more budget-conscious without sacrificing anything approach. It's worked well and been going strong for over 5 years. (Although sometimes I wish it wasn't...lol)

Good points regarding the ultasonic humidifiers...i've done some reading and I do get the differences now between them. When I was in my local shop today I saw their "backup" humidifier...and it was this smaller ultrasonic device. They used it when their fancy Stulz 8 jet unit went on the fritz....they said it did a good job. While it is "dumb", as you said, you can attach it to some sort of humistat and that would work. I have seen those models go from anywhere from $50, to more expensive at $150 all the way up to $4000.

Good ideas regarding the raised floor. That will happen.....not sure how yet, my contractor has ideas, but yours is a very good one as well. Food for thought.

I do agree regarding logging humidity and temperature in that space. This project is not in any rush to be completed....I have as much time as I want. The space isn't going anywhere and I dont NEED to have it done NOW. So maybe several months of logging in both the winter and summer months will be beneficial before making any determinations.

I did not know that you competed with Bob....but I will be contacting you further outside of here regarding a "unified solution".

Thanks again for all your input.

~Drew

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First off, Piggy....not once did I take the "half assed" comment in any other way than as you intended smile.png It was off the cuff, indeed, and definitely taken as such....but the point is a valid one. And while I am not going to do it any other way but "right" (even if value engineered for budget), I do very much get the point about the perils of doing this project half-assed.

In another part of my basement I designed and built a 200 gallon in-wall Marine Reef environment. Believe me when I tell you that THAT "ecosystem" is a far more advanced and "picky" environment then this will be. Not to take it lightly, but the science behind that project was (and continues to be) a very complicated endeavour. There were many options in doing that, and some of them involved just tossing money at it, but I preferred a much more budget-conscious without sacrificing anything approach. It's worked well and been going strong for over 5 years. (Although sometimes I wish it wasn't...lol)

Good points regarding the ultasonic humidifiers...i've done some reading and I do get the differences now between them. When I was in my local shop today I saw their "backup" humidifier...and it was this smaller ultrasonic device. They used it when their fancy Stulz 8 jet unit went on the fritz....they said it did a good job. While it is "dumb", as you said, you can attach it to some sort of humistat and that would work. I have seen those models go from anywhere from $50, to more expensive at $150 all the way up to $4000.

Good ideas regarding the raised floor. That will happen.....not sure how yet, my contractor has ideas, but yours is a very good one as well. Food for thought.

I do agree regarding logging humidity and temperature in that space. This project is not in any rush to be completed....I have as much time as I want. The space isn't going anywhere and I dont NEED to have it done NOW. So maybe several months of logging in both the winter and summer months will be beneficial before making any determinations.

I did not know that you competed with Bob....but I will be contacting you further outside of here regarding a "unified solution".

Thanks again for all your input.

~Drew

Not a problem mate. I am a construction manager when not building cigar climatology products.

Housekeeping pad doweled into the existing slab, furred 2x3's shotgunned to the walls 16OC, 1.5 foam insulation, Densglass, Tyvek, sheeted with mahogany or Spanish cedar, shiplap or TnG would be nice. 10 to 15 light exterior dual pane door, swing out with closure, nice brass lever with exterior jambs, Q-lon or other seals with a similar threshold. 2x4 framed partition wall face, a little electrical work, a ceiling fan, 4 airtight cans with some LED's and your are in business!

Best of luck with the project!!! -Piggy

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Not so Dave!

You can get these and similar items all over the place. I actually run items like these in my house to keep my woodwork from getting destroyed! I am big on rH control as you know!!!

http://www.costco.com/pureguardian™-12-Hour-Ultrasonic-Table-Top-Humidifier-2-pack.product.100082300.html

That's what I said. His question was what is the difference between what you and I are talking about vs the commercial humidification units Bob sells for a space that big, and I said $100's of dollars. Get a humidifier for $40 ballpark and get a humidity control for $60-$70. As opposed to the high dollar cost of those commercial "humidor" units.

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That's what I said. His question was what is the difference between what you and I are talking about vs the commercial humidification units Bob sells for a space that big, and I said $100's of dollars. Get a humidifier for $40 ballpark and get a humidity control for $60-$70. As opposed to the high dollar cost of those commercial "humidor" units.

I get it now!!! -LOL

I forget the consumer view sometimes. When I think of a humidifier, I think of one component, one part of a system, not a whole system… I gotcha!!!

Reading is fundamental… -LOL

Yea, my stuff is not cheap either, more expensive that Bob's, but you get different stuff, more control, wider range of controls and options. I pay for precision, it all depends on what you want.

-R

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Housekeeping pad doweled into the existing slab, furred 2x3's shotgunned to the walls 16OC, 1.5 foam insulation, Densglass, Tyvek, sheeted with mahogany or Spanish cedar, shiplap or TnG would be nice. 10 to 15 light exterior dual pane door, swing out with closure, nice brass lever with exterior jambs, Q-lon or other seals with a similar threshold. 2x4 framed partition wall face, a little electrical work, a ceiling fan, 4 airtight cans with some LED's and your are in business!

I get the impression that this is worth saving... even if I'd need someone to translate.

Count me in as another appreciative reader.

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I would normally charge for such things but if I have the time I just might CAD draw the project for you guys. It might be fun! No promises.

If I start drawing in my own components, well… you will have to live with it!!! -LOL

Cheers, Piggy

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I'll take that with whatever components you just happen to put in ;) I'll "deal"...lol.

Btw, while that aforementioned paragraph was greek to me as well, my brother (contractor) read it and simply nodded in agreement.

So it's definitely worth saving, regardless of my inability to understand it.....

~Drew

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  • 3 weeks later...

Another thing to consider - and maybe your brother already knows this and has mentioned it - but you can buy 4'x8' plywood sheets faced with spanish cedar. So, when it comes to covering your walls, if that is what you plan to do, you can save a lot of money using the plywood sheets vs. solid cedar.

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I would normally charge for such things but if I have the time I just might CAD draw the project for you guys. It might be fun! No promises.

If I start drawing in my own components, well… you will have to live with it!!! -LOL

Cheers, Piggy

i could only imagine - after the big newair "wineador" crazy of the last few years - that a lot of unsuspecting wives/girlfriends/life partners are in for some serious trauma if you ever decide to lay out ACTUAL plans for a walk in humidor.... my head just exploded... Piggy, you are quite brilliant...

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  • 7 months later...

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