Tobacco giant sues Australia

[paulF]

This is going to be an interesting one since the outcome can have a major effect on BOTLs in OZ and around the world

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/29064155/tobacco-giant-sues-australia/

[LordAnubis]

What an absolute joke. Scum of the earth those big tobacco companies.

It should be a written law that any corporation trading in Aus should abide by the laws, and that those laws can be changed at any point as decided by the government. If you're not happy with that then piss off.

I wonder if Phillip Morris wouldd be happy to pay for tobacco related healthcare costs?

[El Presidente]

It should be a written law that any corporation trading in Aus should abide by the laws, and that those laws can be changed at any point as decided by the government. If you're not happy with that then piss off.

Crap

Government can change whatever they wish but must be prepared for legal action .....which they are entitled to defend. if they have been found to have screwed up....then they should pay compensation and shite-loads of it.

How many businesses went bust because the Oz Government "re wrote" laws overnight or over a year.

Solar Energy/Ready to Drink/Pink Bats/Insurance/new ATO accountancy BAS provision.....and I haven't even given it more than a few minutes thought.

No business in those sectors was big enough to take on the Govt. They were bankrupted, families destroyed at worst, folded or plowed on doing their best.

The Govt can put it's big boy pants on and defend the action. If they lose then I hope they lose to such an extent that it will make them think twice of doing so in the future.

[LordAnubis]

That's all part of the risk i reckon. Things change. Always.

These guys are fighting to keep their IP of a cigarette packet. Through all the years of health care bills for people who got cigarette smoking related illnesses, how much did these guys pay to help the health care industry? Very little i imagine.

Now things aren't going to their favour they are throwing their toys out of the pram. f@#$ em i say.

While i think plain packaging has failed as much as the next guy, i do like the theory of the laws we currently have but i think they need to be refined for general use.

[Ken Gargett]

What an absolute joke. Scum of the earth those big tobacco companies.

It should be a written law that any corporation trading in Aus should abide by the laws, and that those laws can be changed at any point as decided by the government. If you're not happy with that then piss off.

I wonder if Phillip Morris wouldd be happy to pay for tobacco related healthcare costs?

mus, i'm afraid i am not completely in agreement also. makes it impossible for businesses to operate if govts chop and change.

that said, i think you'll find that it is a "written law" that corporations have to abide by the laws - called the corporations act (or it was when i studied the stuff).

but a govt is entitled to change the laws, though the mechanism of parliament, or in a very few cases, referendum. we have elected our govt and changing laws is precisely what they do - whether we like that, or indeed the govt, is another matter. that was why keating saying that whatever promise he was claiming to make could not be changed because "it was L-A-W" was such crap. and he knew it. just lied to the people. but don't they all. i think that was a promised tax cut which he claimed they could never change. utter rubbish.

so overseas corporations do have the alternative that they can leave if not happy. most locals do not.

but, and this is an entire other matter, govts are also accountable - to certain extents. hence the right to sue.

[JohnS]

Governments chopping and changing laws? I decided to take control of my superannuation a long time ago because the changes to legislation by Australian governments were so frequent that I couldn't keep up!

So, I can appreciate how businesses feel when their playing field (so-to-speak) is moved so often!

[El Presidente]

That's all part of the risk i reckon. Things change. Always.

These guys are fighting to keep their IP of a cigarette packet. Through all the years of health care bills for people who got cigarette smoking related illnesses, how much did these guys pay to help the health care industry? Very little i imagine.

Now things aren't going to their favour they are throwing their toys out of the pram. f@#$ em i say.

While i think plain packaging has failed as much as the next guy, i do like the theory of the laws we currently have but i think they need to be refined for general use.

That's all part of the risk i reckon. Things change. Always.

...yep..that's what people who work for wages say

These guys are fighting to keep their IP of a cigarette packet. Through all the years of health care bills for people who got cigarette smoking related illnesses, how much did these guys pay to help the health care industry? Very little i imagine.

.....Currently over 10 Billion a year in excise duty and GST. Govt could ban tobacco tomorrow but needs it. Much like it needs gambling and booze.

Now things aren't going to their favour they are throwing their toys out of the pram. f@#$ em i say.

...I think what they are saying is that if you wish to terminate our Intellectual property, destroy mechanisms to protect against a black market.then there is a price to pay. Pay it or prove to a court why you don't have to.

If government has nothing to fear...no problem. I am a believer that if you "take" something then you "pay" for it.

While i think plain packaging has failed as much as the next guy, i do like the theory of the laws we currently have but i think they need to be refined for general use.

The time for refining is in the planning and discussion phase. Our Government will be doing this through an International court. Not ideal....but they put themselves in this position.

[paulF]

Both sides have some good points as clearly explained by above comments but another thing that also should be taken in consideration is the accountability of politicians that put such agreements in place and also such policies like plain packaging without considering the consequences.

Without diving into too much details, when subject matter experts advise against such trade agreements(Current TPP) but politicians do anything possible to make it happen, one should question in who's interest are these politicians working for. The public or big international corporates.

The suit is for 8 billion dollars! So if the government loses, Aussie tax payers will be the biggest losers and no politician will ever be put to accountability which is, to my mind, the biggest problem of our current times.

[LordAnubis]

Fair points... maybe i just hate tobacco giants

And that's a very true point about refining in the planning stage and not in international court there pres

I dunno. I just hate the big bastards trying to act the poor disadvantaged company. In the end, as has been stated, we will be the ones paying anyway.

[El Presidente]

I have no love for Cigarette Companies Mus.

What I love even less is political boffins enacting policy without thinking through the ramifications...or if thought through, not giving a rats arse and kicking the can down the road for a day at the International court.

I hope the government (both sides supported it) are exposed at morons who ran with a thought bubble that cost the country an 8 Billion dollar + lesson.

The govt will increase duties/taxes to pay for it.

[Duxnutz]

One of the biggest problems (I'll admit there are many) with our Aussie government is the will to change a vast array of things in defense of protecting us from ourselves.

When the tax/duty/excise train runs out on tobacco (surely we must be near the tipping point on duty where it may as well be illegal) they'll simply move it to wine and spirits. Seems it's already headed that way.

In this instance I too hope the tobacco companies make our politicians cry like newborns.

[Onelove]

Did the UK just bring these same changes in?

[Mike72]

Did the UK just bring these same changes in?

They have.

It's disgusting.

[Ryan]

They have.

It's disgusting.

In the EU recomendations, there is wording that allows cigars and pipe tobacco to be excluded from the plain packaging legislation.

Teenagers aren't getting addicted to £20 cigars. Nor are people walking down the street with premium cigar boxes in their hands.

As far as I know, the UK along with every other EU country to introduce legislation so far will exclude cigars and pipe tobacco from their plain packaging laws.

Every country that is, except Ireland. That's ongoing.

On the other hand, I know a few UK cigar retailers who have been called by cigarette companies asking for a definition of a "cigar".

So the cigarette companies are at it again. Anything they see as a loophole, they'll try to exploit. I suppose fair enough.

[TomF]

What an absolute joke. Scum of the earth those big tobacco companies.

It should be a written law that any corporation trading in Aus should abide by the laws, and that those laws can be changed at any point as decided by the government. If you're not happy with that then piss off.

I wonder if Phillip Morris wouldd be happy to pay for tobacco related healthcare costs?

The problem is not really with the big tobacco companies, although they are pretty scummy too. The problem is with horrible trade agreements that allow multi-national corporations such as Phillip Morris ignore a nation's sovereignty and overturn the laws of countries who are signatories to the agreements.

Stop the TPP!

[mikemerry]

I think tax payers would prefer a settlement which allows for future packing not to have the stupid labels. Call it wash. I know I would. That's what I can't stand about our Canadian gov. We all pay and yet we all loose.

[Maplepie]

So the cigarette companies are at it again. Anything they see as a loophole, they'll try to exploit. I suppose fair enough.

This is the biggest shame and why the cigar industry gets hurt so much (and probably why Mus is so damn aggrevated, lol).The UK (If I can recall) gets around it by saying that cigars have to be "hand rolled" so the machined ones don't technically count. I like that definition because it works in practice and not just in theory.

[topdiesel]

Big Government Vs. Big Tobacco

It is hard to tell which is worse.

I just don't understand why there is any controversy about a company navigating the proper channels to lodge a complaint with the Government. One of the most effective tools of government is to convince the masses that it is OK or even beneficial to chip away at individual freedoms. Another is to raise taxes to small subsets since the rest of the population doesn't care until it is their small subset.

We might end up being a little safer, but where is the fun in that?