Cigar Flipping Discussion (moved from La Escepcion Thread)

[suggs]

So everything a guy writes is either totally right or wrong? How about using logical soundness as a guide? I've pointed out where that logic is wrong and I doubt Locke would have overlooked that. You're taking the proviso far too literally.

The modern libertarian interpretation of the proviso is one where is simply introduces homesteading and best use as the basis for the legitimate ownership of property and the fundamental basis of property rights. That's it.

"So everything a guy writes is either totally right or wrong?"

I never made this argument.

"I've pointed out where that logic is wrong and I doubt Locke would have overlooked that."

No you haven't, you've assumed the wrongness of the logic based on a fundamental misreading.

"You're taking the proviso far too literally."

No I'm not, I'm situating it within the broader context of Locke's Second Essay.

"The modern libertarian interpretation of the proviso is one where is simply introduces homesteading and best use as the basis for the legitimate ownership of property and the fundamental basis of property rights."

Of course, but at this point it stops being Lockean. Locke's conception of property rights ultimately rests on his belief that the world was given to humans by God and, as such, we all have equal claims on it.

[mgravito]

On a US cigar forum I occasionally frequent, a member offered up a lot of Liga Privada No 9's, T52's and Rats for an unreasonably high price and was quickly called out by a members for doing so. At the time, LP's were scarce as hen's teeth and were nearly unattainable at local B&M's. The entire forum ostracised said member and nobody bought at the flipper's price, despite the fact that there were many collectors of super-premiums and these sticks were then very hard to get. Good example of what a majority of people think of the practice.

I would hardly call one forum a majority. There are rules for trading and selling on that specific based around some this idea of being a "BOTL" and as such being called out in a forum like that isn't necessarily a referendum on the practice.

[NSXCIGAR]

"So everything a guy writes is either totally right or wrong?"

I never made this argument.

"I've pointed out where that logic is wrong and I doubt Locke would have overlooked that."

No you haven't, you've assumed the wrongness of the logic based on a fundamental misreading.

"You're taking the proviso far too literally."

No I'm not, I'm situating it within the broader context of Locke's Second Essay.

"The modern libertarian interpretation of the proviso is one where is simply introduces homesteading and best use as the basis for the legitimate ownership of property and the fundamental basis of property rights."

Of course, but at this point it stops being Lockean. Locke's conception of property rights ultimately rests on his belief that the world was given to humans by God and, as such, we all have equal claims on it.

The Lockean proviso has all sorts of logical problems when scarcity an trade are introduced into the equation, or who the arbiter of who gets what will be and how it's enforced. Plenty of philosophers have debated this, and it's far from logically sound. There are plenty of articles by thinkers like Sreenivisan and Otsuka, as well as Nozick's extended work in this area to poke enough holes in your interpretation and expose that as logically unsound.

[Fugu]

What gets on my nerves is that I hear this alot. Its as if because we're talking about cigars, you're assuming that we're all friends and we're all brothers and because it's cigars we should all be ultra fair to the point of being stupidly generous with EVERYONE!! I'm sorry but I really don't care for some of the people who buy, smoke, or sell cigars and if I want to sell a box for more than I bought it for, which I do on many occasions, then to me, it's business. I could care less if you're a BOTL.

I think there is nothing wrong or even "immoral" about that (and like NSX, I am convinced "moral" is the wrong concept here). But people also seem to forget that the price someone is asking not just depends on the market (edit: and might not be driven by profit), it also depends on his own, very personal valuation of said cigar, i.e. how much he/she likes it. Here probably comes into play again, whether you are a plain "flipper", who is effectively just a dealer who doesn't really care about a cigar, or a "smoker". This seems always being mixed up in the discussion, and there may be crossovers of course.

E.g. if I were to sell a box of a particular cigar from my personal stash, which I do like very much and which I can't replace (easily), I wouldn't bother much about the actual going market value (while the flipper has to). That would not be my main criterion. I'd rather ask myself, what would it be worth me giving that box away, and in doing so forgoing smoking that very cigar in the future, or at least reducing the options. Should the requester not be willing to offer this my personal asking price, I'd not sell it and prefer enjoying it myself.

No one else than myself is entitled to form an opinion about whether my behaviour might be seen right or wrong.

Therefore, as has been said before, it always very much lies in the personal assessment of each single individual market actor.

No conclusions on moral to be drawn from it. Generalizations will just not help.

Now if it's truly a friend or family member then I will not raise prices. But just because the buyer is a cigar smoker now I'm supposed to not "flip" for profit! That seems much more wrong to me, not to mention asinine, than what I or any other "flipper" does in selling for a higher price point than we get the cigars for from the retailer.

That would be asking a favour. Now, people may well ask for a favour/charity and fine if a favour is being, and often will be done amongst S/BOTLs. But expecting a favour, taking it for granted, appears as bad and overbearing a manner as gouging. If people don't like the price, they should behave "manly", accept it and move on.

[suggs]

The Lockean proviso has all sorts of logical problems when scarcity an trade are introduced into the equation, or who the arbiter of who gets what will be and how it's enforced. Plenty of philosophers have debated this, and it's far from logically sound. There are plenty of articles by thinkers like Sreenivisan and Otsuka, as well as Nozick's extended work in this area to poke enough holes in your interpretation and expose that as logically unsound.

"The Lockean proviso has all sorts of logical problems when scarcity an trade are introduced into the equation, or who the arbiter of who gets what will be and how it's enforced."

Of course it does, I never suggested that it didn't. All I did was point out your mistaken interpretation (the false equivalence between self-ownership and the ownership of private property). I do not deny that there are massive problems with Locke or with liberal social contract theory, in general. Full disclosure, then: I'm not a Lockean, and have nothing at stake here, apart from trying to correct bad readings of him. I don't mean this as an insult, by the way, and I apologize if it comes across that way.

[TonyAccardo]

I honestly can't fault ANY of the posters in this thread for their feelings on this subject for the simple fact that we all are coming from a position of past experiences that influence how we feel about this.

Like one of the posters above was posting about some guy putting all those Drew Estate shitmissiles up for exorbitantly high prices......well that person is a jerk in my eyes too. I'd say, as with almost anything, it's a case by case basis.

Ok, the ******* (me) will crawl back into his hole for now.

[GasGuy82]

I prefer choosing whether or not to buy from the scalpers because it means that with some leg work I can find said item for retail. My concern is that organizations like the SF Giants have instituted "Dynamic Pricing". Dynamic Pricing allows for real time fluctuation in the cost of a certain item. How many of you want Rob, HSA and any other group instituting Dynamic Pricing. If you thought the price of a box of Bushido's was brutal before...

[TonyAccardo]

"I know I'm going into dark waters and defending the indefensible here but on an economic basis there's nothing wrong with scalping."

Are you kidding??? Scalping in most of the US in illegal. There is a good reason for that.

"Buying up a pool of tickets does not increase or decrease demand. "

Wrong here as well. If the only tickets left are from scalpers at sky high prices, interest will fall after fans continually try to get affordable tickets without success.

In Orlando around the arena, scalpers are usually seen offering tickets. Most people regard them as little more than trash for what they do.

Fortunately, police confiscate tickets when the scalpers are caught.

In cigars, take Anejo Sharks for example. A few years back, they were only faint rumors to most cigar enthusiasts because they were limited in quantity and flippere snatched most of them up. As a result, many people said piss on it, I'll get something else. Now, Anejos can readily be found for around 10 bucks and sit on the shelf. I work part time in a cigar b&m and have a large supply of them. They are now passed over for other sticks that are easily as good. So yes, scalpers and flippers DO have a negative effect in the interest and eventual sale of items.

Besides, scalpers and flippers just suck!

Buying cuban cigars if you're a US citizen is illegal too! What's your point here? Did you even think about that before you just banged out your response on the keyboard and hit send?!?

[canadianbeaver]

Great discussion, classy and constructive. Hello to guys I have not spoken to in a while!

When I go to an antique auction and find a special item, I might list it the next day online with proper details and photos, hoping to double or triple my money. Plus, if I am clever, I might sell it in US $ and this gives me a 30-40% boost.

Not a job, a hobby or occasional fun activity.

Maybe some guys do this to help pay with other items in the their knowledge base. Not nasty or taking advantage, just participating in a marketplace.

Note, where the BOTL factor works here is should you send a box of cigars that are not right, you will hear about it loud and clear!

[forgop]

No problem with what you're doing, I'm all for capitalism and trying to make a buck.

Just wondering if you would feel comfortable selling the same special item to say a close friend, family member, co worker, or even an acquaintance on the Friends of Antiques forum that you might be a member of, for double or triple what you paid?

I'm going to guess probably not?

Heck, if I thought I could triple my money on a box of cigars by selling to a stranger on ebay or kijiji I would probably consider it and wouldn't feel too badly about it . I just wouldn't do it to a friend, co worker, family member, or a fellow member on a cigar forum.

To me it would just feel wrong. If that makes me less of a man, a whiner, a wet blanket, beta human or whatever you want to call me then so be it. If it makes you angry then tough for you.

Not trying to take a moral or intellectual high ground, just stating an opinion relevant to the topic without declaring to be right and or anyone else wrong.

If you disagree with me then that's your opinion and that's what is right for you...no reason to get angry about it. We can't all be the same.

Anonymous forum participants aren't friends and family.

[El Presidente]

So are we nothing more than strangers here?

Respect and courtesy should be afforded to all.

Bonds and friendship are earned over time.

Forums are no different to the society as a whole. I would go so far as to say that member conduct on FOH is way ahead of society in general

[forgop]

So are we nothing more than strangers here?

Do you know my name, where I'm from or what I do for a living? How about my wife's name and ages/names of my kids? What about my favorite restaurant, hobbies, and pet peeves? Have you ever called or sent a message to see how I was doing or invited me to go do something? Would you even know who I was if I was standing right in front of you typing this?

Or do you just know what I like to smoke and just a few other meaningless details I choose to share, which may or may not even be true?

Seems pretty simple where MOST forum members fall on friend/family vs strangers spectrum.

[dangolf18]

I don't think flipping is wrong. It is frustrating though when I'm not able to get something htf but someone else managed to snag 10+ boxes just to go flip them. I think flippers are offering a service for those wanting to find htf stock. Flipping will only be around as long as people are paying what they are asking. Just look at the bourbon market...as soon as people stop paying $2000 for a bottle of Pappy 23, prices will go down.

[shlomo]

Respect and courtesy should be afforded to all.

Bonds and friendship are earned over time.

Forums are no different to the society as a whole. I would go so far as to say that member conduct on FOH is way ahead of society in general

I disagree with the "earned" part Rob. Formed may be a better choice of words as opposed to earned imo.

Alo respect and courtesy are the initial base, but if not reciprocated, then out the window.

As for gougers, does PCC vintage program fall in that category? Lol

[El Presidente]

I disagree with the "earned" part Rob. Formed may be a better choice of words as opposed to earned imo.

Alo respect and courtesy are the initial base, but if not reciprocated, then out the window.

Two sides of the same coin for me. Genuine interest in the other persons life/hobbies. Niceities done for the love of doing them.

As for gougers, does PCC vintage program fall in that category? Lol

I am not sure how a commercial operation such as PCC can be seen as gougers !LOL! Whingers will no doubt think so.

[shlomo]

Dont know what a whinger is, but I guess thats me!

[LordAnubis]

Haha... urbandictionary is your friend

[forgop]

No I don't know any of that but I do know this info about other members here.

This is a place most of us come to learn, share information and to have a few laughs, to make trades, participate in polls and contests, discuss all matters serious and not so much so. Of course to also procure cigars from our host.

It's a community where even if we don't know intimate details about each other we all share a love for cigars and some of the other finer things in life. We talk about these things almost ad nauseum but we never seem to get tired of it.

For me there's a comfort and a trust that goes along with that.

So if someone here attempted to offer me a "flip" I would probably be a little bit offended and would frankly have to question his motivation for even being here.

There are some that because of time and close proximity to be able to smoke together here and other forums that to me can say they're "friends". For the most part, we're just acquaintances more than anything. Online, you're nothing more than an image you portray, regardless of who you really are. It's not to say you shouldn't be friendly and respectful to one another, but I just figure that lack of interaction aside from forum posts such as these, we're mostly just interacting in meaningless banter in the grand scheme of things.

I've seen the flipping discussion on cigar forums and on a firearm forum where the flipping/gouging debate always comes up. In my mind, if you're friends and trust that person, you can sell at cost. For anyone else, market dictates the going price.

Think of it like this-if you buy something where the secondary market is currently lower than it can be bought from a regular source...is the person buying from you going to buy it at a price for you to get your money back or allow you to take a loss? You don't see this in the CC market in the US because of the supply limitations, but in the NC market of regular production cigars, you'll very seldom recover 100% of what you paid (assuming you paid the going retail rate) on a secondary transaction. That's my biggest gripe about such transactions-nobody sees it taking advantage of another member when it comes to buying it cheap, but it's wrong when the shoe is on the other foot.

[SCgarman]

This whole flipping thing happens everywhere.

People flip cigars.

People flip cars, motorcycles.

People flip houses.

People flip Rolex and other high end watches.

As with all of these, you either make the decision to buy or not to buy.

The house I am living in was bought from a flipper. It was a foreclosure bought by someone who gave the house a complete and modern remodel with new everything inside. We chose to buy it because it was the same price as the house across the street which was also for sale but needed modernizing. Houses were built in 1973.

So, I have no issue with cigars fetching high dollars. Folks pay tens of thousands for lots of pre-embargo Cubans all the time. This can be seen on the CA website. If they have the $$$, more power to them!

[Puros Y Vino]

The house I am living in was bought from a flipper. It was a foreclosure bought by someone who gave the house a complete and modern remodel with new everything inside. We chose to buy it because it was the same price as the house across the street which was also for sale but needed modernizing. Houses were built in 1973.

Your house flipper added value to the home though. Way different than flipping a new box of cigars.

[Orion21]

Wow, this thread is hard to believe. People, people, people...there will always be those that have access to hard to find things, that then turn around and sell them for a profit. I totally get that when you deal with friends or other BOTL's that you will generally charge MSRP for normal cigars, but that flies out the window for rare or hard to find cigars when dealing with strangers on the open market. If it makes you feel good to buy 10 boxes of LeE and sell off 5 boxes for MSRP good on you. But don't demonize those who can get 50%-100% more because someone is HAPPY to pay it to acquire these hard to find cigars. When the first LeE petite lancero was released I paid a premium for my box and was happy to do so to get my hands on one. I don't hold ill will to the guy who made some extra money because he had the connection to the supplier to get the boxes and I didn't. Also, who really cares? Is there some unwritten rule somewhere that says no profit can be made to give up a prized possession? I would argue that just the act of being willing to give up something you prize justifies being compensated more that your basis. I wouldn't sell any of my most prized cigars for MSRP because I would feel cheated giving them up for nothing in return, unless I was bombing someone who had it coming! This whole argument about having to add value to something to justify up charging for it is ridiculous. How is making a rare or hard to find cigar available not providing value? Is the argument about how much compensation is justified what's really bothering some of you? If it is, get over it! The market decides what is fair and not fair, not you all. If someone is willing to pay $1,000 for a box of cigars that originally cost $350 that's their decision. They may represent the peak of demand and then prices will fall . . . who knows. My point is our individual value judgement should have no bearing on any of this. You are either willing to pay X for something you can't get yourself or not. It's a waste of time complaining and arguing over all of this. This has existed since humans first started bartering for goods and services.

[HarveyBoulevard]

Wow, this thread is hard to believe. People, people, people...there will always be those that have access to hard to find things, that then turn around and sell them for a profit. I totally get that when you deal with friends or other BOTL's that you will generally charge MSRP for normal cigars, but that flies out the window for rare or hard to find cigars when dealing with strangers on the open market. If it makes you feel good to buy 10 boxes of LeE and sell off 5 boxes for MSRP good on you. But don't demonize those who can get 50%-100% more because someone is HAPPY to pay it to acquire these hard to find cigars. When the first LeE petite lancero was released I paid a premium for my box and was happy to do so to get my hands on one. I don't hold ill will to the guy who made some extra money because he had the connection to the supplier to get the boxes and I didn't. Also, who really cares? Is there some unwritten rule somewhere that says no profit can be made to give up a prized possession? I would argue that just the act of being willing to give up something you prize justifies being compensated more that your basis. I wouldn't sell any of my most prized cigars for MSRP because I would feel cheated giving them up for nothing in return, unless I was bombing someone who had it coming! This whole argument about having to add value to something to justify up charging for it is ridiculous. How is making a rare or hard to find cigar available not providing value? Is the argument about how much compensation is justified what's really bothering some of you? If it is, get over it! The market decides what is fair and not fair, not you all. If someone is willing to pay $1,000 for a box of cigars that originally cost $350 that's their decision. They may represent the peak of demand and then prices will fall . . . who knows. My point is our individual value judgement should have no bearing on any of this. You are either willing to pay X for something you can't get yourself or not. It's a waste of time complaining and arguing over all of this. This has existed since humans first started bartering for goods and services.

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My vote for the most succinctly articulated answer to a very expansive discourse.

[Puros Y Vino]

^ ^ ^ ^

My vote for the most succinctly articulated answer to a very expansive discourse.

My vote for a "most succinct ban" for @Orion Yes. That was well put. The notion that if seller and buyer are happy who are we to judge? I know well of the example Aaron is bringing up. There was a bit of a premium on those. I went a bit wild on those 2011 La Escepcions myself. In all, I think about 17 boxes passed through my hands. Many of which I kept and the others relayed to other interested parties. FTR, I didn't take a cut. It was a group buy, not a "flip". Were I to sell a box now, you bet there'd be a premium.

[Guest rob]

I've kept an eye on this thread for the past week, and it has definitely been enlightening.

I'd say it's safe to say in the same way as religion, politics and gun ownership - people will have opinions, and sensitivities that are firmly entrenched into their character and personality type. I'd say that even without meeting someone, a qualified psychologist could work out quite a bit about a person just by reading their opinions, and the positions they take on particular issues.

Let's say a box of cigars doubles in value overnight - some people cry immoral if the owner of the cigars tries to realise the profit. The complainers say that selling them for purchase price is the 'right thing to do'

If on the other hand the box halved in value overnight, the same people would suggest it is wrong if the owner was selling them for the original price.....they would now argue that the new lesser value is the fair price to pay.

As for me, and hard to find or valuable cigars:

I've never (ever) sold a box of cigars.... and I've cheerfully gifted many.

I can however assure you, that if I was looking to sell them to someone I didn't know well and personally - I would try and get as much as I possibly could for them. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that I'd try and get as far above market value as possible for them.

[Fugu]

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My vote for the most succinctly articulated answer to a very expansive discourse.

All been said on page one...