PigFish Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 That will help. Mind posting a pic of your setup? That will help me not waste my time and guess. Cheers! -R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 That will help. Mind posting a pic of your setup? That will help me not waste my time and guess. Cheers! -RYep here you go.5lbs of 60% beads on the top drawer and another .5lbs on the bottom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 Question: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 14 hours ago, PigFish said: Question: It's a shelf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonybkny Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 take the beads out of the bottom, what does the rh do? also pull your shelves and check for condensation on or below the fan. ive got a similiar humidor set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, anthonybkny said: take the beads out of the bottom, what does the rh do? also pull your shelves and check for condensation on or below the fan. ive got a similiar humidor set up. I check for condensation on a pretty regular basis, and so far, there doesn't seem to be any. I'm curious, what is your rationale for pulling the beads out of the bottom. My logic was that given that they're 60% beads, they are helping to actually lower the RH by sucking up extra moisture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonybkny Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 26 minutes ago, PadronFan said: I check for condensation on a pretty regular basis, and so far, there doesn't seem to be any. I'm curious, what is your rationale for pulling the beads out of the bottom. My logic was that given that they're 60% beads, they are helping to actually lower the RH by sucking up extra moisture lets see if logic and real life match up. those beads arent really a quick drying agent like damprid. try and see where it is without the beads, this way you have a baseline. the way these coolers are set up, theyre usually dryer on the top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 Instructions: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 Instructions:Thanks Piggy, one point of clarification, do you mean remove all beads or just the ones on the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 Instructions:Thanks Piggy, one point of clarification, do you mean remove all beads or just the ones on the bottom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 ... well, if your beads are a means to provide your rH support, have you calibrated them? You are saying that this bottom 'area' is 70rH. Have you isolated the beads and tested them to see that they are not a part of the 70rH problem? So, to answer you more directly, if the top is working leave it be for now. You (apparently) have an air flow problem. This means that when the cooler runs it dries the air mid span in the cooler. The top shelf likely has access to that cold air, therefore it is dryer. The bottom, being cloistered is not getting access to the dry air and the stagnant materials there are likely at least some part the problem. The cigars, wood, beads etc. all need to be examined for suspects. You see I have a basic humidor performance philosophy. It is pretty simple. You must prove you can control 'space' first, and then you have evidence that you can control the cigars that are 'driven' by the space. No space control, no cigar control. The process then is an elimination of variables that impede you progress and control. You need to remove items to get to the root of the problem. Once you can control the space you can examine the individual items that my have been factors for the impedance. Does that make sense? Best of luck and let us know how it goes... -P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 ... well, if your beads are a means to provide your rH support, have you calibrated them? You are saying that this bottom 'area' is 70rH. Have you isolated the beads and tested them to see that they are not a part of the 70rH problem? So, to answer you more directly, if the top is working leave it be for now. You (apparently) have an air flow problem. This means that when the cooler runs it dries the air mid span in the cooler. The top shelf likely has access to that cold air, therefore it is dryer. The bottom, being cloistered is not getting access to the dry air and the stagnant materials there are likely at least some part the problem. The cigars, wood, beads etc. all need to be examined for suspects. You see I have a basic humidor performance philosophy. It is pretty simple. You must prove you can control 'space' first, and then you have evidence that you can control the cigars that are 'driven' by the space. No space control, no cigar control. The process then is an elimination of variables that impede you progress and control. You need to remove items to get to the root of the problem. Once you can control the space you can examine the individual items that my have been factors for the impedance. Does that make sense? Best of luck and let us know how it goes... -PYep totally makes sense. Thanks for the education. I removed all the beads and the two shelves to your point, to get a baseline. An hour later, the temp is consistent 70f top and bottom and RH is 62 top and 64 bottom. Going to let it sit overnight to see if things stay that way. I'll test the beads tomorrow for RH levels separately. What you recommend as next steps if I'd like to get my RH as close to 60 as possible? Also in wondering about constructing a splitter for the fan to help the air funnel 50/50 top and bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I have made tons of posts advocating an isolation approach to the cold/wet/dry space of humidors. I have even CAD drawn examples and posted them. I think it would benefit you and others to emulate my principles here and attempt to isolate and control this space. MHO... If interested you will have to do your own research on my posts. Isolation and containment requires more and better controls. You and others need to decide what level of control you want and what steps you are willing to take to get there. I am not a politician, this means how much trouble, time and money you want to throw at it! I don't know if you will ever, other than by accident get to 60rH with any form of stability. This is not a slap in the face, but a real evaluation based on my experience with these products. You don't really have control, you have, if your are lucky, variables that become sympathetic to your cause or ones that are hostile to it. In your case you can do nothing more than experiment, experiment, make logical changes, experiment, and experiment more...! Take advantage of the sympathetic variables and eliminate the hostile ones. My example from above is a sample of that approach. I cannot make a silk hat out of a sow's ear. But I may be able to coach you though to some form of contentment. A good man knows his limitations and this cooler is never going to be perfect. You must settle somewhere. Your job, is to decide how much in the way of resources it will take to make you happy. Cheer! -Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonybkny Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Where your hygrometers are, theyre probably reading the cedar draw up top and your wet cigars you stuck in there from a fresh shipment. I dont think your problem is airflow. You need to take a few steps back and empty your humidor and place your hygrometers middle space. what are your readings with only the cedar in it and the cooler turned off? then on? then add your cigars, what are you readings turned off and on? add media if moisture is needed to bring your rh up. leave it out if your rh is still high and have patience. in the mean time, i suspect your beads are too wet, bake them in the oven on 200 deg for 40, 40 mins if needed. since were both in NY and have similiar ambient temps/rh, heres my cooler turned off with 65rh boveda and beads. youll always have some variance in rh, once you understand that these coolers are wetter in the middle than the top and bottom (turned on or not), youll be able to work with it and rotate accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 48 minutes ago, anthonybkny said: Where your hygrometers are, theyre probably reading the cedar draw up top and your wet cigars you stuck in there from a fresh shipment. I dont think your problem is airflow. You need to take a few steps back and empty your humidor and place your hygrometers middle space. what are your readings with only the cedar in it and the cooler turned off? then on? then add your cigars, what are you readings turned off and on? add media if moisture is needed to bring your rh up. leave it out if your rh is still high and have patience. in the mean time, i suspect your beads are too wet, bake them in the oven on 200 deg for 40, 40 mins if needed. since were both in NY and have similiar ambient temps/rh, heres my cooler turned off with 65rh boveda and beads. youll always have some variance in rh, once you understand that these coolers are wetter in the middle than the top and bottom (turned on or not), youll be able to work with it and rotate accordingly. Thanks Anthony, good to hear from someone in NY, given that we're both dealing with the same ambient environment. Taking out the shelves yesterday definitely helped stabilize the top and bottom to be more even. Currently, with no beads inside, its reading at 65%. I'm going to watch it for a few days and see things drop a bit. Then I might attempt your idea of taking all the cigars out and turning off the unit and getting some readings and slowly adding things back in. Curious, is your drain hole plugged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Latest update in case anyone is interested: humidity is holding steady at 63% from top to bottom at 71F. Thanks to piggies advice. Next step for me is to try and add some of the beads back in (dry) and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 5, 2016 Author Share Posted October 5, 2016 Latest update in case anyone is interested: humidity is holding steady at 63% from top to bottom at 71F. Thanks to piggies advice. Next step for me is to try and add some of the beads back in (dry) and see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MahDooRow Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 9/30/2016 at 0:02 PM, PigFish said: I am certainly not suggesting that you should not help each other, but don't get stumped if an advised solution does not work for all parties. Furthermore, even you guys who think you have this licked, should remain vigilant. Because as you system becomes saturated and dried at different levels, as you ambient changes, you 'may' develop the same or inverse problems. This is just a simple warning to be cautious... Don't get complacent. Best of luck on your projects! -Piggy Piggy's advice to remain vigilent and to not get complacent is right on point. Ambient conditions are a significant driver of a wineador's interior conditions. And to the extent that ambient conditions change, ongoing maintenance is a necessity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 15 hours ago, PadronFan said: Latest update in case anyone is interested: humidity is holding steady at 63% from top to bottom at 71F. Thanks to piggies advice. Next step for me is to try and add some of the beads back in (dry) and see what happens I am glad that we go that settled!!! I have to giggle here. It has been proffered that I am pompous due to the fact that I say that these humidors 'don't work.' One guy has got a hole in the center that is dry, while another guy says the center section is wet... This is the result of no real control over the humidor. As the ambient drives the thing, everyone has got a different situation and different problems. This emphasizes a post made earlier. While everyone is happy to give advice, and I am not knocking them, they are giving advice to the best of their abilities, many are talking about their humidor, in their space... which may be totally inapplicable to another. FanBoy here has a circulation problem, maybe amongst others, but it has been proven! Here comes more potential bad news... You guys have got to get over your hangups on shelves and drawers, or circulate the crap out of the inners! Shelves and drawers are great for stable rooms and static humidors. You don't have a static humidor, but a semi-active one that has drivers of variable climate. Guys, if you turn the stereo on in the car, and expect to listen to HiFi in the basement (from the car) it is not going to do sound that good!!! The point is silly, but accurate. These are products that I make for my projects (and others). I know most of you guys are DIY guys so my stuff is likely more than you want to spend... But here are the ideas for you to emulate... You want to move air (and water vapor) from the center to the top and bottom??? Build yourself a little tube, cut a hole in it, mount a fan in the hole and move the blasted air!!! A word of warning. Humidor function changes as you fill it. FanBoy (don't mind me, I make up names for everyone and I cannot spell Padron... ) you may have only temporarily solved your problem. It is not solved until you again fill and block the pathways! The experiment was to prove a point of advice. BUT, it may not be your solution... Be advised, you still likely have the same problem. Cheers! -Piggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 11 hours ago, MahDooRow said: Piggy's advice to remain vigilent and to not get complacent is right on point. Ambient conditions are a significant driver of a wineador's interior conditions. And to the extent that ambient conditions change, ongoing maintenance is a necessity. ALL HUMIDORS are influenced by the ambient. Driven... is the word to debate! The controlled humidor is designed, or supposed to be designed, where the humidor, its engineering and control, makes it the dominant driver. You drive, or you're driven! I would say all humidors have an operational envelope. You stall it, work it outside of your design parameters and you move from being the driver to being the driven. It is that simple in active controlled humidors as well. The ambient is a driver, a dominant force to reckon with. Control over it is a matter of insulation from it, and dominant control in the isolated, or insulated space. Cheers amigos! -Prof. Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthonybkny Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/5/2016 at 10:33 AM, PadronFan said: Thanks Anthony, good to hear from someone in NY, given that we're both dealing with the same ambient environment. Taking out the shelves yesterday definitely helped stabilize the top and bottom to be more even. Currently, with no beads inside, its reading at 65%. I'm going to watch it for a few days and see things drop a bit. Then I might attempt your idea of taking all the cigars out and turning off the unit and getting some readings and slowly adding things back in. Curious, is your drain hole plugged? Youre welcome. im not sure about the drain hole, but i have not done any modifications to my wineador. good luck man and dont let it drive you crazy, youll figure out your cooler soon enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 I am glad that we go that settled!!! I have to giggle here. It has been proffered that I am pompous due to the fact that I say that these humidors 'don't work.' One guy has got a hole in the center that is dry, while another guy says the center section is wet... This is the result of no real control over the humidor. As the ambient drives the thing, everyone has got a different situation and different problems. This emphasizes a post made earlier. While everyone is happy to give advice, and I am not knocking them, they are giving advice to the best of their abilities, many are talking about their humidor, in their space... which may be totally inapplicable to another. FanBoy here has a circulation problem, maybe amongst others, but it has been proven! Here comes more potential bad news... You guys have got to get over your hangups on shelves and drawers, or circulate the crap out of the inners! Shelves and drawers are great for stable rooms and static humidors. You don't have a static humidor, but a semi-active one that has drivers of variable climate. Guys, if you turn the stereo on in the car, and expect to listen to HiFi in the basement (from the car) it is not going to do sound that good!!! The point is silly, but accurate. These are products that I make for my projects (and others). I know most of you guys are DIY guys so my stuff is likely more than you want to spend... But here are the ideas for you to emulate... You want to move air (and water vapor) from the center to the top and bottom??? Build yourself a little tube, cut a hole in it, mount a fan in the hole and move the blasted air!!! A word of warning. Humidor function changes as you fill it. FanBoy (don't mind me, I make up names for everyone and I cannot spell Padron... ) you may have only temporarily solved your problem. It is not solved until you again fill and block the pathways! The experiment was to prove a point of advice. BUT, it may not be your solution... Be advised, you still likely have the same problem. Cheers! -Piggy Thanks Piggy, totally get your point about the shelves. My only reason for them is to be able to fit singles in but solve that issue with old boxes. Good news is that the RH is holding steady at this point at 64. I'm going to hold off on adding drawers back in for now. Curious, what are these meant to do that you have a photo of here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PigFish Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 ... these are ducted fan appliances. Two of them are going to Oz to a friend of mine who has been patiently waiting on them (one is a freebee Nik). They collect air (and water vapor in air) in one area an convey it to another. Broadcast fans are only useful in certain circumstances. These are conveyance ducted fans. Picture a tee in your plumbing. It moves water from a central source to two areas separated by some distance. Instead of liquid water, picture the dry, or wet middle of your humidor and picture bringing that air (along with the water vapor) to the top an lower extremities of your humidor. Now picture it running all the time while homogenizing the air water mixture and I think you will get what they are used for. Only the one on the right has a fan in it. I have had a run on fans and I am in need of restocking them. The fan mount holes can be blocked, hold a fan or a grille. -Piggy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 The experimentation continues. Tested the beads separately today in a ziplock with my hygrometer and they registered at 55% dry. In the humi they go to see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoyoFan Posted October 7, 2016 Author Share Posted October 7, 2016 The experimentation continues. Tested the beads separately today in a ziplock with my hygrometer and they registered at 55% dry. In the humi they go to see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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