Wine cooler anxiety

[Hurltim]

3 minutes ago, PigFish said:

yes...

Hand crafted items went the way of the dodo some time ago in my little shop. I would dump my table saw too if I had a 5' by 10' CNC (and if it were not 60 years old and my fathers). Mine is much smaller. I can do CAD/CAM work faster than I can move all the junk off the top of the table saw and set up support for it.

I would like to see a picture of your router table! I have a homemade one, with a router-lift but don't use it often anymore. It comes in handy for pattern cutting items that are hard to jig on the CNC. I usually do that work in groups and use the table for assembly otherwise.

Cheers! -Piggy

 

Thank the stars! I was going to have the men in pretty white suits pick you up otherwise. LOL! They make some smaller CNC machines specifically for woodworking that are pretty nice. I need a good band saw 1st so I can re-saw safely. I'm not a huge fan of re-sawing on the table saw with wider boards.

I will get you some photos tonight. I have to finish up the drawers for the wineador.

[PigFish]

@Philc2001

 

I don't typically 'test' equipment. It is cheaper on my end to throw it away! Calibration, at my level costs money. Someday maybe I may spring for a chilled mirror sensor calibrator. BUT, they can cost 5 to 15K and I am not willing to spring for that today! -LOL

Salt tests are highly accurate. But the salts need to be pure and so does the water. Then again, one should use specific salts for calibration and one should control the temperature that one calibrates. One should really not salt test at 75rH and expect accuracy at 65rH. Sensor error is not linear (typically). Three points should be used...

But after all that my friend let me tell you this. Accuracy is a fools game... Yes, I said it. Accuracy is only as good as a language that two people are using. If you and I are talking settings and one of us is off, we are both off! Trying to find accuracy can cost you a fortune, and what does it get you? You answer me!

Not a lot! Why? Because keeping cigars is a personal preference. And you have errors and so do I... What matter is the taste and condition of your cigars in your humidor at your settings... Not mine! Don't get duped into an accuracy argument or competition. It means precious little.

What is important to me is precision. Precision means repeatability and control over a point, any point regardless of whether that point is accurate to a NIST standard. The standard is yours, and that is acquired by taste. How you read it, or achieve it means precious little. What matters is your satisfaction with it. Accuracy means that you and I can talk in the same language and it is meaningful, that we can compare notes and little else. In real world smoking, it does not mean much.

Get a small data logger and spend a few bucks on it. Most are NIST certifiable but don't bother. Most are 2 to 3%+- rH accurate... That is as good as you should expect.

For the record, the sensor you see me logging through has a published accuracy of 1.6rH from 10 to 90. Yes, that is damn good. True 1rH sensors can cost thousands of dollars. Most are nowhere near that, and if they are it is by accident. A two dollar sensor can be more accurate than a 2 thousand dollar sensor. But one is proven and the other is not!!! It is the 'proof' that costs money.

Chasing accuracy is folly, nice, but unnecessary. The number really does not matter. The condition matters. The ability to change conditions "might" matter. You need to decide what matters to you.

For the record, when anyone tells me that they store at XX/YY, I don't believe them anyway!!! -LOL This sound terribly conceited, I know. But I have been around the controls and sensor world for goodly amount of time now and one thing I have learned, I trust what I see and taste not what others see an taste. And that is why I gave the same advice to you!

-Piggy

[Philc2001]

Thanks @PigFish 

It does make sense. What we're after is safe storage that does not compromise taste. With multiple humidors it can be challenging to keep the environment in all of them within an acceptable range so there is little difference in the final product. Years ago I took 3 identical hygrometers and put them in the same container for a salt test, and I got 3 different readings. But to my surprise they were pretty close (about +/-1% from the middle).  At least it was useful to see how far apart they are.

From there it's a matter of adjusting to your preference to find your desired compromise between taste and burn quality. I don't need to get too anal about it, though many of us tend to enjoy the tinkering and the sampling that goes into our hobby

I love my cigars, and I know what I like today after 20 years of smoking, though that has evolved and changed over time. It's gotten to a point now where I can tell from feel and cutting a cigar I can gauge somewhat if a cigar is too wet or too dry. But when it comes to smoking in 90/90 outdoors here in the Florida summer you get sort of accustomed to burn issues

 

[Hurltim]

@PigFish I think you are the first engineer-type that I have ever run into that sees that chasing accuracy IS a fools game. I was really commenting on the efficacy of your system rather than the need for absolute accuracy. That is an amazing system sir. You are certainly the "master of your domain."

If the stated goal is to find the "living condition" for your cigars that maximizes the flavor for your taste buds, then all you really need is a way to control the changes in that living condition and monitor how those changes affect the flavor of your cigars. You don't necessarily need laser beam accuracy for that.

For me, I have ambient temps that swing wildly within a day. We don't have central air and aren't planning on getting it anytime soon. In a month or two, when we turn the heat on, the ambient temp will be between 65-70 but the rH will plummet. I would rather automate the whole deal and not have to micromanage it. Hence my interest in your system sir   

[PigFish]

@Hurltim

Bear in mind with my posting that I try to speak to a broad audience and not necessarily, precisely at one party. I do appreciate your complements by the way, I am very proud of my work.

I remain a pragmatist. In my world, my stuff is the best. Yet before I became the zen humidor master (read with levity) I was a guy battling with dry or moldy, certainly cigars not kept in a stable state. I have been where everyone starts. I recognize that most people don't have my interests and recognize real world scientific laws, and then don't deny them. Furthermore, I am interested in helping those with problems, not selling stuff. Selling stuff is a byproduct of helping the right guy who really needs what I have to sell. I am not looking for people to sell stuff to... I have a backlog already! If you don't need what I have to sell, most times I talk people out of buying it.

I hope you and others get what I am saying about accuracy. I mean it is cool, I like it. But I have to look at it objectively. What, do I get to 'win' arguments because I can produce a receipt that says I spent XXXX dollars on a sensor? How stupid is that argument? Ultimately it is about smoking, smoking good cigars and controlling EMC. For some of you it will be about aging, and maybe proving that you always stored in a way to support market value. To each his own... Me, I am about smoking great cigars and water content is important to me.

If selling stuff was the goal I would be pitching my desiccant and other products. I don't even bother to compete there. I often tell people to buy stuff I don't sell...

I am an on-the-fringe guy! I am happy to laugh about it with the rest of the forum. If you don't think I am a bit nutty, you don't know me well enough...

I hear you about automation. Some people like to show their little bluetooth gadgets to their friends. I could care less what my humidor is doing right now. BECAUSE I KNOW IT IS WORKING. I can show that my humidor is always working to my friends and that is what is important, not the friends, but that I can prove to my biggest critic, me, that my stuff works. I don't worry about cigar storage anymore, except as a hobby to make better. Automation is king (to me). I don't want to manually throw the lever on my home furnace or AC, I'll be damned if I want to fret over a few boxes of cigars either. My fretting days are done. The humidor does the fretting for me. I only fret if it breaks... and I have to pull it out and clean all the spiders from behind it and find a place to put the cigars... -LOL Thankfully, that has only happened once, a cheap power supply that I no longer buy. Lesson learned!

This will make you laugh. I still have not fixed that humidor! I just built a new one a generation better.

I am on Gen 11 or 12 now, I cannot remember. -LOL I don't think it really matters as long as they get better...

On a personal note, you may be able to debug what you have enough to make yourself happy. That is what I am here for. As stated, it is not about my standard, it is about yours. If your standard is my standard, guess what? You are in trouble and you are a likely customer because no one makes what I make. You are stuck with me, or you had better lower your standard... -LOL

Cheers! -Piggy

[jcorona]

11 hours ago, SloppyJ said:

Don't want to add anything to this thread other than your wineador that you pick up might only go up to 65°F on it's thermostat but you will find the internal temp is more than that. Right not I have my unit set on 63°F and it's producing an internal temp around 66°F. Just something to keep in mind. 

Why is the inside temp higher than the setting you use? I guess it depends on what your ambient temp is.

[Fugu]

13 hours ago, PigFish said:

But after all that my friend let me tell you this. Accuracy is a fools game... Yes, I said it. Accuracy is only as good as a language that two people are using. If you and I are talking settings and one of us is off, we are both off! Trying to find accuracy can cost you a fortune, and what does it get you? You answer me!

Not a lot! Why? Because keeping cigars is a personal preference. And you have errors and so do I... What matter is the taste and condition of your cigars in your humidor at your settings... Not mine! Don't get duped into an accuracy argument or competition. It means precious little.

What is important to me is precision. Precision means repeatability and control over a point, any point regardless of whether that point is accurate to a NIST standard. The standard is yours, and that is acquired by taste. How you read it, or achieve it means precious little. What matters is your satisfaction with it. Accuracy means that you and I can talk in the same language and it is meaningful, that we can compare notes and little else. In real world smoking, it does not mean much.

This simplification, although well meant, could be a bit misleading, Piggy. Basically you are of course right reg. precision, the absolute number is irrelevant, repeatibility of measurements and reproducibility of results is it. But due to sensor aging and drift you'll only know about it when you do regular recalibrations of your measurement equipment. And I wouldn't speak of accuracy (bec. there is none in metrology), I'd rather speak of measurement uncertainty. Knowing about your particular measurement uncertainty, whether you are using a cheapo- or a high-end equipment is a necessity. And I'd even like to add: calibration is all, price of the sensor (read quality) is nothing. You can and will get completely misleading results from the best sensor precalibrated to the highest standards, when not regularly re-calibrated.

If one aims at a particular long-term storage climate, it is inevitable to calibrate equipment. Once you find your sweet spot, you want to keep and be able to reproduce it. If one gets that same information from the feel or the sizzling sound of the cigar, fine, so be it. But it all needs to be founded on a certain fix point. My humble 2cts

[Fugu]

On 12/09/2016 at 9:17 PM, PigFish said:

Now my YouBoob videos are low budget, okay... -LOL But I do try to explain what you are experiencing here in this video!

Piggy on air exchanges

Watched that for the first time, actually. Very illustrative of the process and very educational Piggy (and impressive, too!).

This one should certainly be pinned in the humidor tutorial section, as it will answer those many questions popping up so regularly for chilled systems. And it is a vivid demonstration with regard to rH and aH and temperature.

[SloppyJ]

4 hours ago, jcorona said:

Why is the inside temp higher than the setting you use? I guess it depends on what your ambient temp is.

It does depend on your ambient settings. However, my ambient temps are around 72°F so they aren't far off. I think it's just how the wine coolers work, they aren't as efficient when it comes to cooling as you would think. That or their thermostats are just off. 

[Hurltim]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

This simplification, although well meant, could be a bit misleading, Piggy. Basically you are of course right reg. precision, the absolute number is irrelevant, repeatibility of measurements and reproducibility of results is it. But due to sensor aging and drift you'll only know about it when you do regular recalibrations of your measurement equipment. And I wouldn't speak of accuracy (bec. there is none in metrology), I'd rather speak of measurement uncertainty. Knowing about your particular measurement uncertainty, whether you are using a cheapo- or a high-end equipment is a necessity. And I'd even like to add: calibration is all, price of the sensor (read quality) is nothing. You can and will get completely misleading results from the best sensor precalibrated to the highest standards, when not regularly re-calibrated.

If one aims at a particular long-term storage climate, it is inevitable to calibrate equipment. Once you find your sweet spot, you want to keep and be able to reproduce it. If one gets that same information from the feel or the sizzling sound of the cigar, fine, so be it. But it all needs to be founded on a certain fix point. My humble 2cts

Let's not forget there is a system bias for the calibration procedure as well. That needs to be taken into account when determining accuracy.

Let's look at all this rH from a different perspective. Ray's hypothesis is that at a certain moisture content, his cigars taste better to him. Measuring a cigar's moisture content is a simple as pie: Take a cigar, weigh it, then put it in a 140 deg. F(+/- 9 deg) oven for 12-16 hours. Let it cool then weigh it again. The difference is the moisture content. The percentage is just simple math at that point. Run some experiments and find out what your favorite is based on moisture content. All in all, it would cost a couple of petit coronas and your data would be accurate and precise. 

Then the remaining question is, what is the necessary rH to maintain that specific moisture content? The hygrometer accuracy is now out of the equation other than recording the delta between what your starting rH was to achieve the starting moisture content (MC) and the new rH used to achieve the desired MC--the readings are relative to itself. The effect of the delta is easily determined by the "dry back" procedure described above. 

Perhaps one day we will see a post that is titled "What is your preferred cigar moisture content?"  

[Hurltim]

A little anecdotal story about thermometers. I used to do materials testing AKA Dirt wh%re, slump monkey, etc. I was testing at DIA (Denver airport) and the ambient temp was 104 deg. Needless to say, the concrete was coming close to it's max temp of 90 deg F. I recorded two trucks at 91 degrees that were then rejected at a cost of about 2500 bucks a truck. The concrete supplier attempted to argue that my thermometer was in need of calibration and wasn't accurate so I showed him my NIST thermo and said.. "Good luck with that, Pal." 

About a week later the concrete supplier QC guy comes up to me and shows me his brand new, NIST mercury thermometer --300 bucks worth (The tester equivalent of whipping out your junk and comparing sizes). He said "My boss told me to go after you for your thermometer but I told him you were using the same one we use in the lab. So they bought me this."

Cracks me up to this day. 

Moral of the story: Keep your s$%t wired tight.

[PigFish]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

This simplification, although well meant, could be a bit misleading, Piggy. Basically you are of course right reg. precision, the absolute number is irrelevant, repeatibility of measurements and reproducibility of results is it. But due to sensor aging and drift you'll only know about it when you do regular recalibrations of your measurement equipment. And I wouldn't speak of accuracy (bec. there is none in metrology), I'd rather speak of measurement uncertainty. Knowing about your particular measurement uncertainty, whether you are using a cheapo- or a high-end equipment is a necessity. And I'd even like to add: calibration is all, price of the sensor (read quality) is nothing. You can and will get completely misleading results from the best sensor precalibrated to the highest standards, when not regularly re-calibrated.

If one aims at a particular long-term storage climate, it is inevitable to calibrate equipment. Once you find your sweet spot, you want to keep and be able to reproduce it. If one gets that same information from the feel or the sizzling sound of the cigar, fine, so be it. But it all needs to be founded on a certain fix point. My humble 2cts

In many ways my friend you are right on the money here. I enjoyed reading this. There is no visible datum unless you trust something!

What I cannot do is play both ends against the middle. My taste has to be my final position and that is where I reside. There is always an argument for accurate instruments, I love them myself, but accuracy to a standard does not define ones tastes they can only align with it! The gist of my position is that you can call that setting "A" or setting "B" as far as I am concerned, it is your taste that matters.

Sensor creep is a reality. I tell my customers that they should consider replacing their sensor every two years. Most quality electronic sensors have a <1% per year mean deviation. I hardly ever get replacement sensor orders!!! Here is what happens! People notice a change and attribute it to something other than the sensor. They adjust the conditions in the project and test and move forward. Whether the sensor is ever blamed I will never know. Of course you can adjust the sensor to read differently in my systems. I have a sensor offset in the controller but no one that I know of uses it unless I tell them to. I do (and it is pretty funny) get the comparison questions and challenges. No one really appears to care about accuracy until they buy something from me (that is what it seems like to me anyway) and they are constantly testing my stuff against sensors that are mostly junk. Yet if they get two junk sensors to agree and mine does not, mine is the problem... -LOL It is pretty funny.

So while you are technically correct, and more accurate instruments, verified more often are always better, there is a point at which affordability and physical ability enter into the equation. If someone is going to poorly attempt to calibrate something and then trust the calibration, perhaps based on a 10rH delta from their set point, I see little good in it. In this case I am looking at the real world cigar smoker and not the professional instrumentation end user! The sensor, mine anyway, is likely best left untouched and untrimmed. If you are going to calibrate, one should pay a known calibration house, send the sensor and the controller (as well as your credit card number) and wait for verifiable and known (proven) accuracy results. Get the points, get the cert., offset the sensor (if necessary) and feel good. Or, of course you can smoke a cigar every day. You can say to yourself these seem a bit different, I think I will take my humidor up a point or down a point. That my friend is where you win in this game (with a system like mine) and it is not based on sensor accuracy. Knowing that your sensor has a cert. is one thing, knowing that you can on a whim take water out of, or add water into your cigar, that is the point of it all! It is not only precision that I pitch, but flexibility. The ability to experiment between two settings, regardless of the accuracy of the settings is what I concentrate on. I don't ignore accuracy, I just don't over emphasize it. I think I see the reality of its importance within the context of our hobby.

For the record I can buy sensors that are certified (within tolerance verified) and ones that come with a NIST cert. It all costs money. Yeah, I have spent it before... I don't bother anymore. I typically toss a sensor before I pay for a cert. My next step (if there is one) is in buying a certified test instrument. When I have 5K or more to burn I will get one. Then I can brag about it... -LOL To be frank, I have thought about setting up a cert. house for cigar types! It is one of those things... it just takes money and motivation... !

Perhaps I should start a poll. Would you pay $50.00 to get your sensor compared to a NIST certified instrument? Most guys won't pay $50 for a hygrometer (just my experience) so I really doubt that they would pay the $50.00. I think last time I payed for a 3 point where I picked the points it cost me about $150.00... The new sensor I sent them was within 0.3rH at 60rH. Not bad!

Based on the accuracy of the stuff I sell, I suppose I should take the position more of an instrument seller than a smoker, but I don't. I still see accuracy as a 'faster gun' game between resellers that means little to cigar smokers. Of course I am selling pretty accurate sensors so I can backstop that position with a good number and a good sensor. One major humidor makers sensors are +-%5... Yuk! It does not stop him from selling way more stuff than I do! -LOL That is the reality of it.

Good input. -Ray

[PigFish]

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

Watched that for the first time, actually. Very illustrative of the process and very educational Piggy (and impressive, too!).

This one should certainly be pinned in the humidor tutorial section, as it will answer those many questions popping up so regularly for chilled systems. And it is a vivid demonstration with regard to rH and aH and temperature.

Thanks mate.

You know my friend I know that you have a critical eye. Coming from you, this is indeed a complement. Thank you for saying it.

(Now I am going to have to look harder for that damn data... Swine! -LOL)

Cheer! -Ray

[PigFish]

2 hours ago, Hurltim said:

A little anecdotal story about thermometers. I used to do materials testing AKA Dirt wh%re, slump monkey, etc. I was testing at DIA (Denver airport) and the ambient temp was 104 deg. Needless to say, the concrete was coming close to it's max temp of 90 deg F. I recorded two trucks at 91 degrees that were then rejected at a cost of about 2500 bucks a truck. The concrete supplier attempted to argue that my thermometer was in need of calibration and wasn't accurate so I showed him my NIST thermo and said.. "Good luck with that, Pal." 

About a week later the concrete supplier QC guy comes up to me and shows me his brand new, NIST mercury thermometer --300 bucks worth (The tester equivalent of whipping out your junk and comparing sizes). He said "My boss told me to go after you for your thermometer but I told him you were using the same one we use in the lab. So they bought me this."

Cracks me up to this day. 

Moral of the story: Keep your s$%t wired tight.

Great story. I know if you were the deputy on my site I would say do your job, it is your ass! How would the batch plant like to pay for demolition and removal and then the re-pouring of a few hundred yards of material when it fails to test, or just fails? Two trucks, very shortsighted...! MHO.

Frankly anyone trucking 100's of yards (just guessing based on the airport location) into the afternoon on a 3 digit day should be sending their guy to the job if they are concerned about it. If 90F is the number, it is already based on some error.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Hurltim]

The worst part was, they had spray bars for the mixing drums but never turned them on. DOH!

The concrete was for caissons for a tangent-pile wall at the south side of the terminal--between the terminal and the new hotel. A tangent-pile wall is literally a wall of caissons. It supports the soils between the building and the wall. They then excavate the earth between the wall and the hotel. They would pour #1, #3, #5 etc. then pour #2,#4 and #6 etc. the next day. Very high strength concrete was used so the temp was an even bigger deal than normal. We kicked quite a few trucks that week due to the temp being too high.

[Fugu]

3 hours ago, PigFish said:

If someone is going to poorly attempt to calibrate something and then trust the calibration, perhaps based on a 10rH delta from their set point, I see little good in it. In this case I am looking at the real world cigar smoker and not the professional instrumentation end user!

Valid point indeed.

[Fugu]

6 hours ago, Hurltim said:

Let's look at all this rH from a different perspective. Ray's hypothesis is that at a certain moisture content, his cigars taste better to him. Measuring a cigar's moisture content is a simple as pie: Take a cigar, weigh it, then put it in a 140 deg. F(+/- 9 deg) oven for 12-16 hours. Let it cool then weigh it again. The difference is the moisture content. The percentage is just simple math at that point. Run some experiments and find out what your favorite is based on moisture content. All in all, it would cost a couple of petit coronas and your data would be accurate and precise. 

Absolutely, and spot on. It is all about moisture content of the tobacco. And as we can't easily determine that directly - well, your propostion is methodologically sound and highly exact and is of scientific value, but is a bit destructive and as such impractical for regular monitoring purposes.... - we use storage-rH and -temperature as a 'simple' proxy for resulting tobacco moisture, and take a particular hygroscopic property (tb adjusted for personal preference) as a given. Well, I think, hmm, I'd guess there must be some data on that existing somewhere...

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