PigFish

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Ha! I just knew you'd have a beard, Ray.
Good stuff, a very interesting insight on the humidor building process.


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I'm going to say it again: You are a mad friggin genius! Awesome, awesome stuff. 

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1) Is your de-humidification process strictly compressor based or have you played around with forced air dessicant silos?

2) What kind of wood did you use for your ducts and the I/O box? Pretty stuff :)

I love the false back wall being used as a duct. There are a few vertical smoker builders (Backwoods comes to mind as well as Spicewine) that use the walls of the smoke chamber as a smoke channel. This is why my shelves have slot vents along the outside. Ideally, if you were able to contain the heating, cooling, humidifying and de-humidifying processes in an "appliance center" at the bottom, you can vent up the sides with false walls with an intake hole dead center of the top of the "appliance center." Modified air would come into the chamber on three sides and then vent straight down the center. Fans pushing up the modified air would provide the suction needed to maintain circular flow. 

Getting all of the appliances into one box at the bottom... I can get three of the four systems in there, just not cooling. I now have some ideas for that.

Just some crap I have been pondering.

Once again Ray, you are an amazing guy. Definitely at the top of my "Gotta have a beer with" list. ::bows deeply::

 

 

Timmah!!!

smokergraphic.jpg

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The only wood in the humidor is SC or mahogany shelf. The ducts are plastic... I am the king of plastics!!! -LOL

The system is extremely complex but uses the laws of physics as a means of simplification. I have shelved many ideas, all will likely make a better humidor, but how much better and at what cost is what I have always asked myself. I try to use physics in place of technology wherever possible.

You are on the right track with your thinking, but you cannot combine too many processes in the same space. You just have to ponder that some and think it through, experience talking!

The acts of heat, refrigeration and water make for some very dynamic space... When I look at how my projects work, sometime I shake my head and wonder if it is just magic, or luck!!! -LOL I have failed so many times, and understand failure so well at this point, you just have to hit rock bottom yourself before you can really understand where I am at with humidor analysis! I don't drink... I make humidors instead!

Dehumidify is a shorty cycle, timed refrigeration process.

Precision logic and timing are very important to cooled microclimate control. It all about controlling overshoot and testing, testing and more testing... That is the 64K hint. This video tells one more about how to build a humidor than you will find in 100 books or any cigar forums.

To give you a hint on how serious I take this, I am now considering series PLC control(s). Like many ideas, it may be more money for little benefit. I won't know until I start to develop the idea. I am always looking for ways to remove parts! When you take out parts you save money and complexity.

I don't know if I will be using a desiccant pack in this project or not. Properly unitized desiccants are an excellent stage 1 process. They have a demonstrated value to me, but as the humidor fills they become less relevant. I understand desiccant industrial processing quite well and use it to my advantage in my humidors. Beads in a nylon stocking is a waste of valuable space! (no offense people) Humidor space if valuable space.

Thanks for the compliments, there is a lot of money, sweat, tears and time invested in what you see here!

Cheers! -Ray (don't call me Ramon!)

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20 hours ago, Akela3rd said:

Ha! I just knew you'd have a beard, Ray.

Oh, really looking forward to watching that! Piggy with a beard? Actually would've expected different. But, hmmm, well, somehow.... as the environmental activist that he is, a beard appears fitting... :D

 

2016-09-27 10.09.35.jpg

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You are confusing the 'tree hugger' look, with the 'cell block "C"' look! -LOL

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1 hour ago, PigFish said:

Beads in a nylon stocking is a waste of valuable space! 

No offense but I find my beads are quite sexy in their stockings........the garter don't hurt either ;)

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... if the cellulose nylon look turns you on mate, all the power to you!!! -LOL -Piggy

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Humidor project to bearded pigs, stockings and garters...in less than a page.
Bearing witness ;)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

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@PigFish I kind of thought you used the cooling cycle to remove water. I wasn't sure if it was quicker than say molecular sieves. So I am guessing you turn the heat on to compensate for the cooling (so consequently, when you need to cool, then you also need to turn on the heat and the humidifier, right?) Tradeoffs I am assuming. It's pretty obvious that lots of testing needs to be done to get everything correct. Like you said, blood, sweat and tears. 

I thought you were already using PLC controls? Essentially you are turning three appliances on and off and one of the appliances would have two different settings. Certainly complicated--and fun. :)

Losing space is part of the equation unless you want to start drilling big holes in the side. It sucks, but it is what it is.

I think I am going to play with the channel walls idea a bit. Traveling that distance would allow heated air to cool sufficiently before coming in contact with the cigars and can be set up so that the cold air intake could be redirected down to the bottom, treated then sent back up the walls for redistribution so to speak. 

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@Hurltim

I get sloppy when I write (sometimes).

Lets define processes.

Cooling

Heating

Hydration

Dehydration

These are often cyclical so I refer to to them as cycles. So a formal cooling cycle is met with a set point being exceeded (a parametric point) and then adjusted by appliances until the threshold (set point differential logic) has been met.

There is a lot of nomenclature out there for controllers. While my controller is capable of PID control, this typically requires all (or most) of its resources focused on one aspect (axis) of control. I therefore use its parametric function for control. It is given a specific set of parameters to follow, and that is what it does. In my case, to be technically correct, I am using a Parametric Logic Controller in this application. The parameters are of course a function of programming and the programming allows for considerable flexibility in defining the parameters.

So back to our question. I use the cooling appliance for dehydration, via a dehydration cycle. The system, short of adding or actually removing water (yes, in net high rH environments my systems collects, even creates, for those who like a less accurate descriptor) water! Therefore the process is a label for what is being accomplished, and then a specific appliance is used for the process.

While I have been using desiccants in my systems as buffers, what I refer to as level-one control, the capture of water for dehydration in a desiccant is a degenerative process control if it is a stand alone system. This is the way that it is used in industry. This would be a nightmare to maintain, and again, short of adding or removing water, my systems require no such desiccant maintenance. Yes, you do have to replace the wick in the humidifier now and again... Desiccants in my systems are fully and automatically maintained. While I emulate the process used in the gas refining industry to utilize my desiccant pack correctly, it is not used (as in a unilateral refining catalyst) but as a bi-directional control.

I have not reread all that I have written, but if I got sloppy and wrote, a cooling cycle for dehydration, that was technically incorrect, sorry. I use the cooling appliance, via a dehydration cycle for level-two dehydration. The refrigeration is used for dehydration with the aid of desiccant buffer which again, regenerates automatically.

The series PLC comment came from my desire wish to remove binary mechanical logic from my system and integrate software driven binary logic in its place.

One could of course integrate that into one controller, yet as that controller starts to escalate in price, lets say it becomes a $750 wholesale item, the cost of the project necessarily becomes higher. Making a more expensive product is not the goal. Making a better product for less, is the goal. So if technology can be use to reduce my labor and the total component parts roster, and then perhaps make the system work even better, then advancement is achieved.

I argue some with a guy here about intermittent fan control. This is an ancillary topic, used as an example. One party uses a belief system for an argument and another uses a empirical proof... (but that is not the point). Adding the components to unify a fan system (you can easily run appliances by back feeding them) and then a timer circuit to achieve the goal is backwards thinking. Again, this is just an example. When I remove the timer and unification structure, I get better performance for less money in parts and labor... It therefore becomes a stupid mistake to add, sell or include such an option! I don't add 'cool stuff' that degrades performance and increases the price. I am driven by two drivers and 'gimmickry' is not one of them. The two drivers are performance and cost... AND, I have some concern about size! Humidor space is valuable space (if you pay a lot for it). Therefore performance verses space loss is always on my mind.

I hope that answers some of your questions. Thanks for your interest and curiosity!

I am not going to give away all my secrets... -LOL -Piggy

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The de-humidification side of things is is your specialty (among others) and as you pointed out, desiccant de-humidification is a degenerative process. Luckily, Colorado is pretty dry. 

Thanks for the info, sir! 

Don't worry, your secrets are safe. I have no intention or time to become a humidor guru or do what you do. Hell, I barely have enough time to do what I do. LOL!

Cheers!

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Well done Ray. I thoroughly enjoyed the video link. I think I'm a Gen 9 man (from memory) but the unit in the video is awesome.

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... some of your upgrade stuff is coming! Got your box packed, forgot the cigars and had to open it again... -LOL Good thing too, because I found a couple of bundled fans the were 'supposed' to be in the box as well!

I tossed in a couple of prototypes for you to fool with (if you happen to wonder and say 'what the hell is this...'). Thanks for your patience as always my friend! -R

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No rush mate, my unit is working perfectly. This "upgrade" is more about adding to my toys than striving for perfection. The new options I'll have at my disposal will keep me as excited as my three year old in his sandpit!

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Very impressive ..thanks for sharing

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On 19/10/2016 at 7:05 PM, PigFish said:

You are confusing the 'tree hugger' look, with the 'cell block "C"' look! -LOL

"Tree hugger" - yesss, that was the name esacaping me.... haha :lol:.

 

On 20/10/2016 at 5:36 PM, PigFish said:

I argue some with a guy here about intermittent fan control.

So, what are the arguments in favour of intermittent, if you'd mind telling, Piggy?

 

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36 minutes ago, Fugu said:

"Tree hugger" - yesss, that was the name esacaping me.... haha :lol:.

 

So, what are the arguments in favour of intermittent, if you'd mind telling, Piggy?

 

... I don't know mate, I am not making the argument! It makes him feel better I guess...

I like constant circulation unless there is a case for heat, in which case I say intermittent is better than none. In a cooled space, there is no reason not to run fans full time, not unless you just want to make one up.

I have had customers that don't want to listen to the fans. They make noise. If you want quite you sacrifices some performance for it. I guess that is a reason... just not one of mine.

-Piggy

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Ok, I get that. Well, noisiness may be a 'sound' reason....:P, but as you say, comes with compromises. Apart from that and heat, I got to know it from battery-powered systems, were you want to expand op-times. But otherwise I also can't see any clear advantage.

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I was wondering if you have tried running these off of a battery backup of some sort and if so were you able to get a significant runtime? With the power outages were have in florida it would be nice to know the system would remain up and running for a few hours should power go down.

Also, I tried pm'ing you pigfish, not sure if I am doing it right, but I was hoping to get some contact info from you to go over a possible build. Thanks and great looking system you have, very impressive.

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1 hour ago, Drpete said:

I was wondering if you have tried running these off of a battery backup of some sort and if so were you able to get a significant runtime? With the power outages were have in florida it would be nice to know the system would remain up and running for a few hours should power go down.

Also, I tried pm'ing you pigfish, not sure if I am doing it right, but I was hoping to get some contact info from you to go over a possible build. Thanks and great looking system you have, very impressive.

Yeah mate I got it. Please send me an email at [email protected] I prefer not to burden Rob's PM system with my commercial inquiries. I will get back to you shortly.

My systems have a non-voile memory. Yes, it will turn off with a power outage. Home emergency power supply are not my thing, but I have a generator at home. You plug it in, or turn on the power and it goes right back to doing what it was doing!!! It is not battery powered, but I would think that there are several options for those wishing to power one of my humidors during times without power.

Send me an email please... Thanks for the enquiry... -Ray

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