Akela3rd

H Upmann Petit Coronas Jar

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Great find! Congrats

I know, that wasn't very helpful...


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Going by the packaging information on Cuban Cigar Website, glass jars were phased out in the mid-70s. Around 1970 they were produced with 2 clips on the lid, prior to this they had 3 clips. Glass jars were popular in the 1950s/60s. The H.Upmann Petit Corona is listed on CCW as packaged (at one stage) in a glass jar with 25 cigars. I wouldn't be surprised at all @Akela3rd if your jar is indeed a pre-Revolution release from the 1950s.

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Going by the packaging information on Cuban Cigar Website, glass jars were phased out in the mid-70s. Around 1970 they were produced with 2 clips on the lid, prior to this they had 3 clips. Glass jars were popular in the 1950s/60s. The H.Upmann Petit Corona is listed on CCW as packaged (at one stage) in a glass jar with 25 cigars. I wouldn't be surprised at all @Akela3rd if your jar is indeed a pre-Revolution release from the 1950s.

 

CCW was going to be my first port of call, but I couldn't access the site. From other threads posted this weekend it appears to be functioning again - 3xcheers.

Edit - just had a look and it's not listed, which as you say makes it pre-'62. Wow.

 

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

 

 

 

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Yes, it is likely. I've just had another look at this link here on my desktop just now (my previous CCW research tonight was from my phone)...

 http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/packaging/information#Box_Stamps

The Box Stamp 'Made in Havana Cuba' dates from pre-September 1960, even though it lacks the Double Oval enclosure and the Warranty seal from 1931 to 1961 had dark green ink, like yours. Warranty seals after this date were printed with a lighter shade of green ink. 

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Maybe send the pictures over to CCW.  They could use your jar to update the site!

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Yes, it is likely. I've just had another look at this link here on my desktop just now (my previous CCW research tonight was from my phone)...

 http://www.cubancigarwebsite.com/packaging/information#Box_Stamps

The Box Stamp 'Made in Havana Cuba' dates from pre-September 1960, even though it lacks the Double Oval enclosure and the Warranty seal from 1931 to 1961 had dark green ink, like yours. Warranty seals after this date were printed with a lighter shade of green ink. 


Just spotted this too on CCW (whist smoking a HUPC...) which might be relevant though not strictly about jars.

"Early Pre-Revolution
Early pre-Revolution boxes were stamped: "MADE IN HAVANA-CUBA" in English capitals.  The text in very early boxes was not enclosed"

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

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Nice catch

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It appears that this may be a very old jar based on the evidence, and in very good condition. "Early pre-revolution" could mean as old as the 1910s, when glass jars were introduced. A pre-Revolution expert could probably narrow down the production window for HUPC glass jar 50s, as there's no indication from CCW or MRN that 50s were ever produced meaning they were discontinued well prior to the Revolution. This jar could absolutely be anywhere from 70-100 years old, and quite valuable depending on how common they are. It's possible this format was very limited production and rarely seen, in which case this jar could be worth thousands of dollars. A pre-Rev expert should be able to tell you how common they are in the vintage market.

I did find some interesting things digging a bit. Apparently Cigar One has this jar in its museum collection:

http://www.cigarone.com/private-collection/vintage-box.php?idvintage=52

And here, it looks like C. Gars auctioned off something a bit confusing. It's apparently a similar HUPC glass jar of 50s half full, but the listing states "vintage 1970s" which we know can't be correct based on the fact that the 50 jars weren't produced post-Rev. The cigars are banded, but from what I can tell Upmann cigars in glass jars from at least the 1940s did come banded, at least the photos of Crystales available do. Either way, I'm not sure what the basis for claiming these are 1970s vintage is, but I'd be interested in the explanation. Either way, it sold for 1,100 British Pounds in June 2010, albeit containing 24 cigars.

http://www.cigarauctions.co.uk/upmann-petit-coronas-p-8798.html

 

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Thanks@NSXCIGAR. I saw that jar you mentioned and there was another sold for $2100 with a full set of mouldy cigars. "Worth thousands"? Dunno about that but certainly a couple of hundred I would think should I ever sell it, which I don't intend doing. It was the fact that it is Upmann PCs, which I like, and they're on the way out that caught my attention more than anything.
BTW I saw one advertised in the USA and sold a while back listed as being made on 16th July 1912. This is the date on the seal of course...


As you suggest though, may try and find an expert to see what this beast is exactly, but it would appear that the "experts" aren't that clear either.

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I am not a cigar historian so I am of little help. I just wanted to say that it is a nice piece for certain. Congrats on your find. -Piggy

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Well, moldy cigars are pretty much worthless, so there you have one sale in the thousands of dollars. The C. Gars jar sold for what was about $1,700 in 2010, and with inflation that's about $1,900 today. So there's another multiple thousands sale, albeit with 24 fair-looking cigars in it. Based on that, I don't think that $1,000-$2,000 is an unrealistic number for the right buyer.

There are plenty of pre-Rev experts out there, particularly in London. I'd suggest perhaps getting in touch w/ JJ Fox. I know Rob has contact with them, and they may be able to at least give some insight as to its rarity and actual age, or at least refer you to an expert. 

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but the warranty seal appears to be the 1931-1961 version, so 1931 is as old as it can be. Yours looks much different than the Cigar One museum example and much more like the C. Gars auction example. So in this case, you know what it is, but determining it's value depends on its rarity. You could always put it up at C. Gars with an extremely high reserve and see what it bids up to!  You could consider even shooting an email to Mitchell Orchant at C. Gars but I would get a second opinion after his...he did after all label the jar he sold as 1970s vintage. I think he was mistaken, but you could certainly ask him what his reasoning was. I'd love to hear it as there may in fact be a legitimate reason he thought so.

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Well, moldy cigars are pretty much worthless, so there you have one sale in the thousands of dollars. The C. Gars jar sold for what was about $1,700 in 2010, and with inflation that's about $1,900 today. So there's another multiple thousands sale, albeit with 24 fair-looking cigars in it. Based on that, I don't think that $1,000-$2,000 is an unrealistic number for the right buyer.

 

There are plenty of pre-Rev experts out there, particularly in London. I'd suggest perhaps getting in touch w/ JJ Fox. I know Rob has contact with them, and they may be able to at least give some insight as to its rarity and actual age, or at least refer you to an expert. 

 

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but the warranty seal appears to be the 1931-1961 version, so 1931 is as old as it can be. Yours looks much different than the Cigar One museum example and much more like the C. Gars auction example. So in this case, you know what it is, but determining it's value depends on its rarity. You could always put it up at C. Gars with an extremely high reserve and see what it bids up to!  You could consider even shooting an email to Mitchell Orchant at C. Gars but I would get a second opinion after his...he did after all label the jar he sold as 1970s vintage. I think he was mistaken, but you could certainly ask him what his reasoning was. I'd love to hear it as there may in fact be a legitimate reason he thought so.

 

 

Great info fella! JJFox know their stuff so I'll get in touch with them definitely. They should also be able to give me advice on how to go about the minor repairs to the seal and gasket without buggering it up.

I really don't want to sell it BTW...that's not what this is about, though listing it on my household insurance may be a consideration.

 

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

 

 

 

Edit - email sent to JJFox...

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Update. This message from Freddie Fox at JJ Fox.
"My best recommendation would be to visit our 19 St. James’s Street store and seek the assistance of one our store staff however I cannot guarantee you an accurate assessment in regards to the rarity of your items should you visit."

So, a trip into London when I can...

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

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On 4/4/2017 at 0:37 AM, Akela3rd said:

Update. This message from Freddie Fox at JJ Fox.
"My best recommendation would be to visit our 19 St. James’s Street store and seek the assistance of one our store staff however I cannot guarantee you an accurate assessment in regards to the rarity of your items should you visit."

So, a trip into London when I can...

Well, that's pretty much a very polite blow-off. This is an item that doesn't need a physical inspection for a general assessment. You're not requesting a formal appraisal and you know what it is, you're just trying to get a general idea of its rarity and age. Perhaps ask Freddie if there's any pre-Rev specialist he could refer you to. It really shouldn't be too hard to find someone who knows this jar as I've found two examples online and you've found one separately, so that's three, but only three.

This is a pretty straightforward item so I'd be very surprised if any pre-Rev expert couldn't immediately offer an opinion on it. You're really just trying to establish its rarity and infer a monetary value from there essentially, which is secondary to you anyway. As I said, from what I've seen, you're definitely looking at a value well north of $1,000, but if there's any info from an expert about how limited a release this was, or what kind of release, it would certainly shed light on just how rare this is. 

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Yeah, I thought it was a very nice "thanks, but bugger off" too. I did ask for a referral if they weren't willing to help but the above is the totality of the reply. However, I have just discovered that Ajay Patel is based at the LCdH in Teddington - only 3 miles away. A call to him methinks...
But hey, I still like looking at it and I've got the cork material to fix the gasket. And...I've got enough HUPC to fill the damn thing!


Thunder & Lightening '75-'15


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Bump!
Time for an update and a question...
A couple of weeks ago I was in central London and went to JJFox and bought a very nice cigar cutter. Whilst there I got into a conversation with a couple of the staff about the very damaged Upmann jar they have in the museum. I told them about mine, mentioned the above email etc and showed them a couple of photos I had on my phone. Their consensus was that my jar was probably 1950s, in very good condition, and being without the original cigars not particularly rare or worth more than a couple of hundred quid to the right buyer. All good stuff.
The question is now can, or rather should, I use it to store the 50 HUPCs (TOS JUN 16) I have for a few years. I've replaced the original cork gasket with a vulcanised cork one and it'll look great full of cigars. Is there the chance of mould developing? And no, I still don't intend selling it...

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15


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29 minutes ago, Akela3rd said:

Bump!
Time for an update and a question...
A couple of weeks ago I was in central London and went to JJFox and bought a very nice cigar cutter. Whilst there I got into a conversation with a couple of the staff about the very damaged Upmann jar they have in the museum. I told them about mine, mentioned the above email etc and showed them a couple of photos I had on my phone. Their consensus was that my jar was probably 1950s, in very good condition, and being without the original cigars not particularly rare or worth more than a couple of hundred quid to the right buyer. All good stuff.
The question is now can, or rather should, I use it to store the 50 HUPCs (TOS JUN 16) I have for a few years. I've replaced the original cork gasket with a vulcanised cork one and it'll look great full of cigars. Is there the chance of mould developing? And no, I still don't intend selling it...

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15
 

 

Great find!

My opinion: Fill her up! Would be a shame to not use it.

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2 hours ago, Akela3rd said:

The question is now can, or rather should, I use it to store the 50 HUPCs (TOS JUN 16) I have for a few years. I've replaced the original cork gasket with a vulcanised cork one and it'll look great full of cigars. Is there the chance of mould developing? And no, I still don't intend selling it...

I don't see any problem in refilling with new production for long-term storage in this jar, Akela.
Two things to observe: Before filling up with the intended cigars make sure you get their moisture down to an uncritical range (if not there yet), i.e. balance at or below 65-67 % rH at room temperature, before closing in. Second - check for any unpleasant odors potentially coming from the old cedar lining.

Apart from that - all good, I'd say. I have left jars unopened i.e. unattended for >3 yrs without any mould (or plume... ;)) issue developing (thus much for "cigars need aeration"). Still safest would be storing the jar within a humidor for environm. stability. But you live in a temperate climate - "damp island UK" - that should be even suitable for open storage of jars (i.e. negative humidity gradients in winter, slightly positive in summer, net year round +/- balanced, or more on the negative side), where even in a not completely sealed system on average you won't lose or gain moisture for years. All provided temperature fluctuations are restricted to a decent minimum.

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Thanks Goo, just what I wanted to hear! I'd figured out about having the moisture level low so I'll get onto it and free up a bit of space (Tetris session reminded me about the jar). I'll post a picture later this weekend...

Thunder & Lightening '75-'15

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20 hours ago, Akela3rd said:

Bump!
Time for an update and a question...
A couple of weeks ago I was in central London and went to JJFox and bought a very nice cigar cutter. Whilst there I got into a conversation with a couple of the staff about the very damaged Upmann jar they have in the museum. I told them about mine, mentioned the above email etc and showed them a couple of photos I had on my phone. Their consensus was that my jar was probably 1950s, in very good condition, and being without the original cigars not particularly rare or worth more than a couple of hundred quid to the right buyer. All good stuff.
The question is now can, or rather should, I use it to store the 50 HUPCs (TOS JUN 16) I have for a few years. I've replaced the original cork gasket with a vulcanised cork one and it'll look great full of cigars. Is there the chance of mould developing? And no, I still don't intend selling it...

I wouldn't challenge the 1950s as being the era of production as it must be between 1931 and 1959, but I would certainly point out that it is almost totally Crystales jars that exist, and based on what I've seen, a 50 jar of Petit Coronas is a bit more rare than they think. They may be somewhat conflating the Crystales with the 50 PC jar a bit. Again, there appears to be only 2 documented 50 PC jars in existence--the Cigar One museum piece and the one that sold at the C. Gars auction with 24 fair-looking cigars in it for 1,100 Pounds in 2010. I'd say that's the most accurate comparison to your jar as the 24 cigars hardly constitutes much more value. 24 loose, unbanded cigars in a 60+ year-old jar are virtually worthless IMO. I still hold that the jar is probably worth well north of $1,000 USD just based on the C. Gars auction and the fact that one exists in the Cigar One museum. I doubt one would be in their museum if it wasn't something of note, and again, those two jars are the only examples I can find that exist anywhere. 

In all fairness to them, without having done the research as I did and being aware of how rare this jar is, I probably would have thrown out a value similar to what they told you.

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