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My Heart and prayers go out to all those killed and injured in the Manchester arena attack  this is my home town and to target young people mainly young girls it totally abhorrent  but they

How about we leave this thread for condolences to those who have been injured in these attacks, and not bring it down to politics and personal opinions.

This is Britain.  We are Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and worshippers of more gods than you can shake a stick at.  We are Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Huguenots, Vikings, Germans, Indians, Africans and e

Saw Chelsea have cancelled their victory parade due to security concerns, and Arsenal have announced they won't have a parade if they win the cup final this weekend.  I'm very nervous of what a like-minded terrorist could do at Wembley on Saturday.  I went to the Arsenal/Man City semifinal last month at Wembley, and I don't see any way to secure Olympic Way, the road leading from the Wembley Park tube to the stadium.  After the match, 90,000 supporters will pile out of the stadium onto that one road, all trying to get to the tube.  At the match I went to, Man City supporters mostly came by coach or used the National Rail services at Wembley Central.  But it still took us an hour to get back to the tube, with mostly just Arsenal fans.  For the final, with two London clubs, I would think the mass of people going back to the tube will be significantly greater.  You have so many people packed into one tight space, and I'm not sure how the police can secure that.

Hopefully the incident in Manchester was just a one-off, and we don't see any more devastation.  But it really makes you think, which I suppose is part of the purpose of terrorism.  We're expecting over 300,000 people at the Indianapolis 500 here this weekend.  Having been to the event numerous times, I can say for sure there's no way to stop someone who knows what they're doing, and is intent on causing harm.  All the vigilance, surveillance, and police/military presence in the world won't stop someone hell bent on killing.  

My thoughts are with the people of Britain.  I know your resolve will see you through this, as it has for over a thousand years.  

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I'd just like to point out before this spirals into some religious dust up. My "I am the resurrection" post is from The Stone Roses and a Mancunian anthem, and wholly away from religion, it's a tune that makes us Mancs, feel proud and pheonix like.

 

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On another note... 

Whilst this has been an absolute tragedy that has reached every corner of the globe as far as commiserations and tributes from all over, I am surprised at how fast the UK anti terrorism and law enforcement agencies have acted and now have arrested 6 people in connection to this abhorrent act, still searching for the bomb maker and I have no doubt he/they will be caught. The father and brother of the Manchester bomber have been arrested in Libia. 

 

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1 hour ago, MIKA27 said:

On another note... 

Whilst this has been an absolute tragedy that has reached every corner of the globe as far as commiserations and tributes from all over, I am surprised at how fast the UK anti terrorism and law enforcement agencies have acted and now have arrested 6 people in connection to this abhorrent act, still searching for the bomb maker and I have no doubt he/they will be caught. The father and brother of the Manchester bomber have been arrested in Libia. 

 

which is all good news. i wonder just how many of these attacks the security/police services in a number of countries stop before they happen? i suspect we owe them more thanks than we will ever know. sadly, it will always be impossible to stop them all.

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1 hour ago, 99call said:

I'd just like to point out before this spirals into some religious dust up. My "I am the resurrection" post is from The Stone Roses and a Mancunian anthem, and wholly away from religion, it's a tune that makes us Mancs, feel proud and pheonix like.

 

my comments not directed at yours at all.

i would hope that this does not descend into such an argument - what happened deserves better.

i was merely putting the counter argument (if you like, for want of putting things in a more forceful way), as too often i see that tack taken. my post is not meant to denigrate whatever beliefs others have, but to acknowledge that there are those as equally offended by this mess being attributed to a god and/or religion, as others are presumably offended by any lack of such beliefs. i don't think this is the right thread for it but if it is raised, then i think it deserves a response.

for me, i am more than happy to leave this thread to what it should be.

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Just now, Ken Gargett said:

my comments not directed at yours at all.

i would hope that this does not descend into such an argument - what happened deserves better.

i was merely putting the counter argument (if you like, for want of putting things in a more forceful way), as too often i see that tack taken. my post is not meant to denigrate whatever beliefs others have, but to acknowledge that there are those as equally offended by this mess being attributed to a god and/or religion, as others are presumably offended by any lack of such beliefs. i don't think this is the right thread for it but if it is raised, then i think it deserves a response.

for me, i am more than happy to leave this thread to what it should be.

Rest easy Ken, One of the many things that divide us from these scum bags is the ability to share thoughts without wanting to do anyone ill. For what its worth I completely agree with your comments on religion. 

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6 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

which is all good news. i wonder just how many of these attacks the security/police services in a number of countries stop before they happen? i suspect we owe them more thanks than we will ever know. sadly, it will always be impossible to stop them all.

My sis was in Military (ga army national guard) during the 1996 olympics in Atlanta.  The amount of plots foiled during the time was nuts according to her.  

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19 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

which is all good news. i wonder just how many of these attacks the security/police services in a number of countries stop before they happen? i suspect we owe them more thanks than we will ever know. sadly, it will always be impossible to stop them all.

The police and all the emergency services have been absolutely golden, sadly however, in the long list of the attacks in Europe over the past few years, I can't think of one where the attackers have not already been "known to the police for extremist beliefs".

I only found out today that the attacker had a black islamic flag on full show out the front of his house!!!!????. when questioned the neighbours said "yes, we though that was weird".  Nooooooooo!!! the correct response, is bloody ring the police!

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6 minutes ago, rhcolbert said:

My sis was in Military (ga army national guard) during the 1996 olympics in Atlanta.  The amount of plots foiled during the time was nuts according to her.  

i know that this thread is not the place for humour but a mate of mine ran in the 96 Olympics. he was very close to the park when that bomb did go off. his business partner always reckons he ran back to the olympic village faster than he ran in his race.

more seriously, it does not surprise me. i sometimes wonder if it might not be a good thing if more of it was made public. i know that the public does not want to know these things but it might make people more careful and might change a few views.

and those involved in stopping these attacks might get more of the thanks and recognition that they deserve.

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6 minutes ago, 99call said:

The police and all the emergency services have been absolutely golden, sadly however, in the long list of the attacks in Europe over the past few years, I can't think of one where the attackers have not already been "known to the police for extremist beliefs".

I only found out today that the attacker had a black islamic flag on full show out the front of his house!!!!????. when questioned the neighbours said "yes, we though that was weird".  Nooooooooo!!! the correct response, is bloody ring the police!

people are too afraid of being labelled racist or Islamaphobes than to alert authorities to such activity. Similar to the San Bernadino massacre. Better to just keep quiet and let them get on with their work.

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I wonder if someone from ISIS is following along with the Best books you have read in the past 12 months floating around in "The Watering Hole".  At the recommendation of that thread, I picked up the book Mr. Mercedes.  That book now has two similarities to two ISIS attacks.  The book starts out with a guy running a Mercedes into a crowd of people waiting a job fair.  That threw me back to the Nice attacks last years and the method used there (truck instead of car).  Then, the book ends with a spoiled bomb attack at tiny bopper concert (sorry if this spoils the plot of the book for those who have not read it).  That seemed to much like this attack.  I know when things like this happen people try to draw similarities, but they just seem like two eerie similarities.  

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38 minutes ago, TheFullMontecristo said:

people are too afraid of being labelled racist or Islamaphobes than to alert authorities to such activity. Similar to the San Bernadino massacre. Better to just keep quiet and let them get on with their work.

bugger off! i saw some blokes netting on the beach this morning. could not dob them in fast enough.

not quite the same thing but i'd have no hesitation. if innocent, one hopes they would quickly explain so and all be well. otherwise, if it could save a kid's life, i'd have no problem.

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1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

which is all good news. i wonder just how many of these attacks the security/police services in a number of countries stop before they happen? i suspect we owe them more thanks than we will ever know. sadly, it will always be impossible to stop them all.

How does the saying go?  We have to succeed every single time, but they have to get lucky just the once.  

 

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6 minutes ago, gweilgi said:

How does the saying go?  We have to succeed every single time, but they have to get lucky just the once.  

 

that is exactly right.

in the end, there must be another way to stop them - hearts and minds? but until then, grateful thanks to those who do everything they can to make the world a safer place.

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8 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

that is exactly right.

in the end, there must be another way to stop them - hearts and minds? but until then, grateful thanks to those who do everything they can to make the world a safer place.

I do not believe we can stop them.

European terrorism such as ETA or the IRA cold be stopped because these were not religiously motivated, because their popular support was getting very very tired of the bloodshed, because they were interested in their own survival, and because fundamentally their goals were well defined in the here and now (defence of their own culture and political independence, mostly).  This meant that they could be talked to -- even at the height of the terror, there were channels of communication open.  

How can you do this with people who have no such limitations, with people who have no hesitation to send out to die those who are looking forward to death, with people whose guiding beliefs are utterly absolutist?  How can you talk to people for whom their worst enemies are their own fellow believers?  

I do not believe we can. 

So all we can do is remain vigilant, try our hardest not to let them spook us into abandoning our values and freedoms, and try to minimise the harm.  And yes, I do believe that this will involve making deals with lesser devils (such as authoritarian POS rulers in the Middle East).  And it will certainly have to involve much greater involvement on our part to try and win the "hearts and minds" of those who live amongst us, to go and deal with the Muslims in our communities as fellow citizens, friends and colleagues.  Foreign threats are far easier to detect and deal with than the home-grown variety, so let's try hard to make sure that our Muslims really are *ours*, that they do not become isolated or threatened.  Every immigrant Abdul who feels part of our community and who dobs in some fellow mosque-goer who makes extremist noises is more valuable to us than ten highly trained security staff.  

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1 minute ago, gweilgi said:

I do not believe we can stop them.

European terrorism such as ETA or the IRA cold be stopped because these were not religiously motivated, because their popular support was getting very very tired of the bloodshed, because they were interested in their own survival, and because fundamentally their goals were well defined in the here and now (defence of their own culture and political independence, mostly).  This meant that they could be talked to -- even at the height of the terror, there were channels of communication open.  

How can you do this with people who have no such limitations, with people who have no hesitation to send out to die those who are looking forward to death, with people whose guiding beliefs are utterly absolutist?  How can you talk to people for whom their worst enemies are their own fellow believers?  

I do not believe we can. 

So all we can do is remain vigilant, try our hardest not to let them spook us into abandoning our values and freedoms, and try to minimise the harm.  And yes, I do believe that this will involve making deals with lesser devils (such as authoritarian POS rulers in the Middle East).  And it will certainly have to involve much greater involvement on our part to try and win the "hearts and minds" of those who live amongst us, to go and deal with the Muslims in our communities as fellow citizens, friends and colleagues.  Foreign threats are far easier to detect and deal with than the home-grown variety, so let's try hard to make sure that our Muslims really are *ours*, that they do not become isolated or threatened.  Every immigrant Abdul who feels part of our community and who dobs in some fellow mosque-goer who makes extremist noises is more valuable to us than ten highly trained security staff.  

sadly, you are probably right. there will always be those we cannot convince. marginalising the extreme elements to the extent possible would help but it is not easy. if we can win over the vast majority then they become less relevant. again, easier said...

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On 5/23/2017 at 5:21 AM, SignalJoe said:

I appreciate and understand your position, however I have to strongly disagree. The idea of terror is to strike fear into the populace.  From a logical/legal perspective providing for the safety of the citizens is the primary function of government.  If the statistics bear out that a certain demographic is responsible for this abhorrent behavior then they have earned the additional scrutiny.  How many times do we need to mourn the deaths of innocents at the alter of tolerance?  Acceptance and appeasement did not prevent this attack and it will not prevent others.  

The concept of ignoring reality/statistics and appeasement in the name of political correctness will be the downfall of western civilization.  Winston Churchill was correct when he said “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” 

I doubt we will agree on the subject and I don't wish to devolve in to a philosophical debate on the matter. I just wanted to interject an alternate perspective.  I wish nothing but the best for the people of the UK.   

Exactly right

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There are no words to describe the level of subhuman scum that would target and kill innocent schoolgirls. I am saddened and furious beyond speech. As a parent I cannot imagine the horror that the mothers and fathers of the beautiful innocent children are going through at this time. This is absolutely pure evil and should be acted upon in accordance with the level of aborent behavior exhibited with this terrible act of cowardice  Thoughts and prayers to the families and friends of the victims

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3 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

i sometimes wonder if it might not be a good thing if more of it was made public. i know that the public does not want to know these things but it might make people more careful and might change a few views.

I often wonder about this. i mean a few weeks ago a white kid left an explosive device on the Jubilee line (london underground train line)! How many people heard about that? ofcourse in the few places that did report it, he was "isis inspired". And that's where all the hate and anger is. IF you only tell people that these specific people are the only ones doing these things... then how quickly will one hate "muslims" because "thats what the quran teaches them". In a world of abundant information, we seem to be getting less and less, and not asking the real questions to find out the full story.

I also wonder, how come white peoples plots always get foiled? Are they all dumber than a schoolkid who was already known to MI5???? Really??

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i know it might not be politically correct but as a part solution -

1. the perpetrator does not face the death penalty - too easy. rather, life in prison, no prospect of parole. it is spent in a solitary cell, large enough for a camp bed and bugger all else. no internet, visitors, books, tv, radio, exercise. nothing. a dim light half the day. darkness the other half. a couple of very very average meals a day. the first bleeding heart to complain about the conditions gets the cell next to him.

2. the extended family faces action as well. i don't care if they are "innocent". you can argue that they have clearly not done enough to prevent a family member taking this action or you can argue that the scumbag perpetrator has destroyed innocent families and in doing so, also then inflicted pain on his own. if he knows these actions will be taken against his own family and still commits the act, no sympathy.

the extended family (parents, children, siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins) would have all possessions immediately seized. everything. bank accounts, property, cars, toothbrushes. everything. don't care if they have been model citizens. if the grub who did this knows he will hurt his own family then it might just stop one or two.

they would then be given a week to leave the country. all of them. forever. i don't care if they had only arrived in the last few months or been there ten generations. they have lost all rights to citizenship. they would be shipped off to wherever. and if no one takes them, they are confined until somewhere is found.

yes, harsh, but tell that to the families who children were torn to shreds.

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