Trump Cuba Policy Announcement

[LLC]

President Donald Trump will travel to Miami next Friday to announce his administration’s changes to U.S.-Cuba policy, a source with knowledge of the president’s plans told the Miami Herald.

 

The location for the event is still in the works. But scheduling the trip indicates the Cuba policy, which has been undergoing drafts for several weeks, will be imminently finalized. And deciding to unveil the policy in Miami suggests it will please the hardline Cuban exiles whose support Trump considered significant to winning Florida, and the presidency.

 

Vice President Mike Pence is also expected to attend. He will already be in town for a Central America conference to be held next Thursday and Friday at Florida International University and U.S. Southern Command. Three Cabinet secretaries — Rex Tillerson of State, John Kelly of Homeland Security and Steven Mnuchin of Treasury — will take part in the conference, but Tillerson plans to depart Thursday, and it’s not clear if Kelly and Mnuchin will take part in the Cuba policy event.

 

Several local venues have symbolism for Cuban Americans, including the Bay of Pigs Museum in Little Havana and the Freedom Tower in downtown Miami.

 

A mid-June Trump visit has been rumored since Memorial Day, when word of the Cuba policy rewrite began trickling from alarmed backers of former President Barack Obama’s reengagement approach toward the communist island. Trump is preparing to tighten at least some of Obama’s changes, including restricting business with the Cuban military and U.S. travel that resembles tourism.

 

 

Those type of revisions have been endorsed by Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and Miami Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, the only two local GOP members of Congress who backed Trump and as a result have pressured his administration on the issue. Rubio in particular has been working closely with the White House and National Security Council on the upcoming changes.

 

President Donald Trump will travel to Miami next Friday to announce his administration’s changes to U.S.-Cuba policy, a source with knowledge of the president’s plans told the Miami Herald.

 

The location for the event is still in the works. But scheduling the trip indicates the Cuba policy, which has been undergoing drafts for several weeks, will be imminently finalized. And deciding to unveil the policy in Miami suggests it will please the hardline Cuban exiles whose support Trump considered significant to winning Florida, and the presidency.

 

Vice President Mike Pence is also expected to attend. He will already be in town for a Central America conference to be held next Thursday and Friday at Florida International University and U.S. Southern Command. Three Cabinet secretaries — Rex Tillerson of State, John Kelly of Homeland Security and Steven Mnuchin of Treasury — will take part in the conference, but Tillerson plans to depart Thursday, and it’s not clear if Kelly and Mnuchin will take part in the Cuba policy event.

 

Several local venues have symbolism for Cuban Americans, including the Bay of Pigs Museum in Little Havana and the Freedom Tower in downtown Miami.

 

A mid-June Trump visit has been rumored since Memorial Day, when word of the Cuba policy rewrite began trickling from alarmed backers of former President Barack Obama’s reengagement approach toward the communist island. Trump is preparing to tighten at least some of Obama’s changes, including restricting business with the Cuban military and U.S. travel that resembles tourism.

 

 

Those type of revisions have been endorsed by Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and Miami Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, the only two local GOP members of Congress who backed Trump and as a result have pressured his administration on the issue. Rubio in particular has been working closely with the White House and National Security Council on the upcoming changes.

 

 

 

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[Winchester21]

I sure hope Trump does not screw things up. People are running around setting off bombs and the employment situation should be his priority. Leave Cuban travel , cigars, rum, and the like alone. I am an independent and I don't do politics particularly US. But if Trump sticks his nose where it does not belong- Cuban cigars- weed laws(I don't smoke it) and personal freedoms he will lose lots of votes next time. Kill terriosts, build infrastructure ,promote job growth, keep the economy rolling. Stay the hell out of our personal freedoms. Sorry for the rant

let us not forget that Obama set up some very anti cigar stuff where any new hand rolled cigar was subject to an FDA approval process that would cost like 250k per product. I signed petitions to exclude hand rolled cigars from the restrictive policies which were aimed toward vaping products but included hand rolled cigars according to the owner of my favorite cigar shop

[Ninja]

This is payback for the Florida support of health care reform, and mainly the only issue they care about. I expect the $100 rule to come back. And word is that he may only cut individual people to people educational travel.

Either way is bad news for the Cubans and will do the opposite of what the Batistas and Cuban mob say they want to do for the Cubans.

Always moving backwards with that island. Ufff.

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[ATGroom]

This graph shows CCW's traffic levels... can anyone guess when the day Obama announced loosening of restrictions was?

[Customsfan]

So once he makes announcement, how soon does new policy go into effect? 

[Ninja]

Looking at Trump, he will probably pen it that morning effective immediately and then tell everyone he did it. I'm a little concerned as I'm arriving back the day after. Ufff.

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[Customsfan]

Wonder what type of financial effect this will have on airlines and people who already booked tickets etc...

[Ninja]

I think they will phase out the travel restrictions by allowing current holders to go and bar any new purchases under the individual travel rule....although people could still do it as they did before the Obama loosening. Sprint and Frontier have already stopped service to Cuba this month.

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[LLC]

The fact he is going to Miami for the announcement means it will a reversal of policy, now we just have to wait to he how bad it is.


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[planetary]

Pre-Onion:

TRUMP HAILS 70 RING GAUGE CIGAR ROLLED BY SOME GUY IN MIAMI AS "EVERYTHING GREAT ABOUT AMERICA"

[anacostiakat]

No Bueno. 

[PigFish]

Facts about who pushes tobacco legislation in my country are out there for all to read. I don't see a reason to assault the messenger! Alas, I am not an angry leftist!

Please research:

The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, (Pub.L. 111–31, H.R. 1256) is a federal statute in the United States that was signed into law by President Barack Obama on June 22, 2009. The Act gives the Food and Drug Administration the power to regulate the tobacco industry.

It was specifically written by a leftist congress to give power to the FDA that was previously considered overreach via a supreme court decision. This law filled this legal loophole, with specific intent to kill the tobacco industry.

Please examine  who voted for it, and do some research on the history of the current FDA Tobacco administrator Mitch Zeller (first appointed by the Clinton administration) to 'ban' tobacco. Funny how the very same guy who failed under Clinton (via the courts) has come back to this job (after leaving it) to finish the job... by the current president. Perhaps we should call that a coincidence!!! -LOL

I can accept criticism, and debate. Yet debate seems in some cases to be beyond the reach ...

-Piggy

 

History continues to be re-witten on cigar forums!

The FDA was given 'specific' authority by congress to 'kill' tobacco. Look who voted for it! Read about Mitch Zeller!!!

Saying that 'the FDA' did it, as if the FDA is not a leftist occupied administrative arm to feed lobbyists and rake in graft from private industry is falsehood! Sorry, not correct. Read the facts!

I love Cuban cigars. I prefer the freedom to spend my money on products that I wish. I am a hypocrite for supporting Cuban tobacco and I realize it.

Cuba, deserves all the criticism it gets! The Castros should be squashed...!

NorKo threatens my country on an almost daily basis. They threaten South Korea and Japan... The Cuban government praises them for it and sells them military equipment so that can continue to do it.

 

From the Diplomat:

On May 24, 2016, the Korea Times reported that senior officials from North Korea’s governing Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) and the Communist Party of Cuba held talks on strengthening ties between Pyongyang and Havana. This meeting followed Cuba’s congratulatory rhetoric toward Kim Jong-un after his re-election during last month’s historic Workers’ Party Congress. That congress was the first such-meeting since 1980.

While relations between North Korea and Cuba have been close since the Cold War, this revelation is an embarrassing blow to the Obama administration’s attempts to normalize relations with Cuba. North Korea’s close ties to Cuba can be explained by a shared normative solidarity against American values and perceived American imperialism. This ideological bond is formed out of historical experience and has occasionally manifested itself in symbolically significant shipments of arms and manufactured goods. These trade linkages persist to this day, despite tightened UN sanctions and strides towards a less confrontational U.S.-Cuba relationship.

North Korea and Cuba: A Cold War-Born Ideological Alliance

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Over the past half-century, Cuba has been one of North Korea’s most consistent international allies. This alliance has caused Havana to resist diplomatically recognizing South Korea, despite growing economic cooperation with Seoul. Cuba’s firm pro-Pyongyang stance has deep ideological underpinnings, stemming from both countries’ shared Communist experiences. In 1960, Che Guevara visited North Korea, praising Kim Il-sung’s regime as a model for Fidel Castro’s Cuba to follow.

While both regimes preserved authoritarian systems and the trappings of a planned economy, their ideological synergy did not translate into convergent governance trajectories, as Guevara predicted. As Wilson Center expert James Person argued in a July 2013 BBC article, North Korea wanted to avoid Cuba’s dependency on Soviet weaponry following Khrushchev’s retreat from confrontation during the Cuban Missile Crisis. This resulted in North Korea transitioning toward a military-first policy, to the detriment of the country’s economic development. Meanwhile, despite visiting North Korea in 1986, Fidel Castro avoided creating a cult of personality resembling Pyongyang’s, as he felt that statues erected in his honor were incompatible with the Soviet Marxist-Leninist principles that he adhered to.

Despite their divergent development courses, both countries have remained close allies to this day, and there are signs that the bilateral relationship has strengthened further under Raul Castro’s rule. Panama’s interception of a North Korean ship in 2013 containing Cuban arms concealed under bags of sugar represented the most significant Havana-Pyongyang commercial linkage since the 1980s. Despite Cuban attempts to downplay the controversy, Panama’s foreign minister regarded this action as just part of a much larger Cuba-North Korea arms deal. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha Power, also condemned Cuba for violating international sanctions.

The U.S.-Cuba normalization has done little to shake Cuba’s close ties with North Korea. In March 2015, Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez declared that Cuba maintained solidarity with the North Korean regime, despite Pyongyang’s increased international isolation. Rodriguez justified his stance on the grounds that Cuban foreign policy is based on upholding just principles and resisting Western interference into the internal affairs of countries.

While leading North Korea expert Andrei Lankov interpreted these statements as proof that Cuba’s criticisms of U.S. imperialism would continue unabated despite the normalization, some NK News analysts have contended that Cuba’s show of support for North Korea may be more rhetorical than substantive. Cuba is mentioned only sporadically by the North Korean state media, and in a limited range of contexts. This suggests that the Obama administration’s Republican critics may have overblown the strength of the Havana-Pyongyang bilateral linkage.

Even if the extent of the relationship has been periodically exaggerated, Cuba’s September 2015 and May 2016 reaffirmations of an alliance with North Korea suggest that the ideological partnership remains alive and well. South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se’s visit to Cuba for the Association of Caribbean States (ACS) summit on June 4 and Seoul’s open calls for normalization with Cuba are unlikely to cause illicit trade between Cuba and North Korea to diminish or become more covert. This is because the symbolic significance of arms shipments and small-scale trade deals between the two countries still outweighs the economic benefits Cuba could glean from enhanced South Korean capital investments.

How Illegal Trade Persists Between Cuba and North Korea

Despite the immense international controversy resulting from Cuba’s 2013 arms sales to North Korea, sporadic trade linkages between the two countries have continued largely unhindered. In January 2016, Cuba and North Korea developed a barter trade system, which officially involved transactions of sugar and railway equipment.

According to Curtis Melvin, an expert at the Washington D.C.-based U.S. Korea Institute, barter trade is an effective way for Cuba and North Korea to evade international sanctions without depleting their hard currency reserves. Cuba’s use of sugar as a medium of bilateral trade has close parallels with Myanmar’s historical use of rice in exchange for North Korean military technology assistance. This form of trade has been vital for the North Korean regime’s survival in wake of the Soviet collapse and more inconsistent patronage from China.

While Cuba’s ability to use North Korean railway equipment remains unclear, NK News reported in January that Kim Jong-un was planning to modernize the DPRK’s railway networks, This development initiative could result in heavy industry production that can be bartered to Havana.

While trade in civilian goods between Cuba and North Korea appears to be on the upswing, trade in illicit arms continues to be the most symbolically potent and controversial form of bilateral trade. A 2013 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) report noted that a large number of North Korean arms brokers speak fluent Spanish. This language training demonstrates the importance of Cuba as a trade destination for the DPRK. The SIPRI report notes that Cuban arms dealers are especially attractive because they can deal with North Korea with a sense of impunity. This contrasts sharply with a British arms dealer who faced prison time in 2012 for purchasing North Korean weapons.

While the 2013 incident remains the most recent confirmed incident of weapons trading between Havana and Pyongyang, recent revelations of a lost U.S. Hellfire missile turning up in Cuba have sparked fresh concerns about a revival of the long-standing arms trade.

Cuba has consistently insisted that its arm shipments to the DPRK are for repair purposes, and therefore do not violate sanctions, which only ban one-way arms transfers. But Mary O’Grady of the Wall Street Journal recently speculated that Cuba’s intelligence sharing and close cooperation with the DPRK constituted a highly pernicious blow to the prospects of U.S.-Cuba normalization.

While the Obama administration has removed Cuba from the state sponsors of terrorism list and taken a big stride toward lifting the Kennedy-era embargo on Cuba, Havana’s continued cooperation with Pyongyang is an alarming blow to the normalization process. The current linkage between anti-Americanism and the Cuban Communist Party’s regime security makes a shift in Havana’s North Korea policy unlikely in the short-term. It remains to be seen if Castro’s planned retirement in 2018 will take Cuban foreign policy in a more pragmatic direction, and allow South Korean diplomatic overtures to finally be successful.

[semifan1]

Can almost assume it's over for Americans the legal way at least for another 4 years. Hope people can get refunds for flights, sucks for the Cuban people that were renting out houses and spending money for a influx of American tourist. 

[Ninja]

Interestingly most of the tourism spike has been non Americans. CBS ran an interesting story last week on the disappointing number of Americans that have visited since the easing.

I think they will be ok, but def not as ok as they could be.

Again, a total misread on what will help the Cuban people short and long term. And Dear Batistas: You're not going to get your houses back. Let it go. If you want something, ask for reparations. But the government can't pay their own bills, so it's in your best interest to let the economy grow, the government make there taxes, and then there will be something for you to go after.....maybe. This type of policy does NOT help you.

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[clutch5150]

PigFish, thanks for posting this article. My head was in the sand I did not realize Cuba was playing with NK in this fashion. Opened my eyes up in a HURRY. 

[kinglingcheng]

let us smoke 

[clutch5150]

7 hours ago, semifan1 said:

Can almost assume it's over for Americans the legal way at least for another 4 years. Hope people can get refunds for flights, sucks for the Cuban people that were renting out houses and spending money for a influx of American tourist. 

....when dictators rule, history always repeats itself.

[Ken Gargett]

9 hours ago, PigFish said:

History continues to be re-witten on cigar forums!

The FDA was given 'specific' authority by congress to 'kill' tobacco. Look who voted for it! Read about Mitch Zeller!!!

Saying that 'the FDA' did it, as if the FDA is not a leftist occupied administrative arm to feed lobbyists and rake in graft from private industry is falsehood! Sorry, not correct. Read the facts!

I love Cuban cigars. I prefer the freedom to spend my money on products that I wish. I am a hypocrite for supporting Cuban tobacco and I realize it.

Cuba, deserves all the criticism it gets! The Castros should be squashed...!

NorKo threatens my country on an almost daily basis. They threaten South Korea and Japan... The Cuban government praises them for it and sells them military equipment so that can continue to do it.

 

From the Diplomat:

On May 24, 2016, the Korea Times reported that senior officials from North Korea’s governing Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) and the Communist Party of Cuba held talks on strengthening ties between Pyongyang and Havana. This meeting followed Cuba’s congratulatory rhetoric toward Kim Jong-un after his re-election during last month’s historic Workers’ Party Congress. That congress was the first such-meeting since 1980.

While relations between North Korea and Cuba have been close since the Cold War, this revelation is an embarrassing blow to the Obama administration’s attempts to normalize relations with Cuba. North Korea’s close ties to Cuba can be explained by a shared normative solidarity against American values and perceived American imperialism. This ideological bond is formed out of historical experience and has occasionally manifested itself in symbolically significant shipments of arms and manufactured goods. These trade linkages persist to this day, despite tightened UN sanctions and strides towards a less confrontational U.S.-Cuba relationship.

North Korea and Cuba: A Cold War-Born Ideological Alliance

Enjoying this article? Click here to subscribe for full access. Just $5 a month.

Over the past half-century, Cuba has been one of North Korea’s most consistent international allies. This alliance has caused Havana to resist diplomatically recognizing South Korea, despite growing economic cooperation with Seoul. Cuba’s firm pro-Pyongyang stance has deep ideological underpinnings, stemming from both countries’ shared Communist experiences. In 1960, Che Guevara visited North Korea, praising Kim Il-sung’s regime as a model for Fidel Castro’s Cuba to follow.

While both regimes preserved authoritarian systems and the trappings of a planned economy, their ideological synergy did not translate into convergent governance trajectories, as Guevara predicted. As Wilson Center expert James Person argued in a July 2013 BBC article, North Korea wanted to avoid Cuba’s dependency on Soviet weaponry following Khrushchev’s retreat from confrontation during the Cuban Missile Crisis. This resulted in North Korea transitioning toward a military-first policy, to the detriment of the country’s economic development. Meanwhile, despite visiting North Korea in 1986, Fidel Castro avoided creating a cult of personality resembling Pyongyang’s, as he felt that statues erected in his honor were incompatible with the Soviet Marxist-Leninist principles that he adhered to.

Despite their divergent development courses, both countries have remained close allies to this day, and there are signs that the bilateral relationship has strengthened further under Raul Castro’s rule. Panama’s interception of a North Korean ship in 2013 containing Cuban arms concealed under bags of sugar represented the most significant Havana-Pyongyang commercial linkage since the 1980s. Despite Cuban attempts to downplay the controversy, Panama’s foreign minister regarded this action as just part of a much larger Cuba-North Korea arms deal. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, Samantha Power, also condemned Cuba for violating international sanctions.

The U.S.-Cuba normalization has done little to shake Cuba’s close ties with North Korea. In March 2015, Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez declared that Cuba maintained solidarity with the North Korean regime, despite Pyongyang’s increased international isolation. Rodriguez justified his stance on the grounds that Cuban foreign policy is based on upholding just principles and resisting Western interference into the internal affairs of countries.

While leading North Korea expert Andrei Lankov interpreted these statements as proof that Cuba’s criticisms of U.S. imperialism would continue unabated despite the normalization, some NK News analysts have contended that Cuba’s show of support for North Korea may be more rhetorical than substantive. Cuba is mentioned only sporadically by the North Korean state media, and in a limited range of contexts. This suggests that the Obama administration’s Republican critics may have overblown the strength of the Havana-Pyongyang bilateral linkage.

Even if the extent of the relationship has been periodically exaggerated, Cuba’s September 2015 and May 2016 reaffirmations of an alliance with North Korea suggest that the ideological partnership remains alive and well. South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se’s visit to Cuba for the Association of Caribbean States (ACS) summit on June 4 and Seoul’s open calls for normalization with Cuba are unlikely to cause illicit trade between Cuba and North Korea to diminish or become more covert. This is because the symbolic significance of arms shipments and small-scale trade deals between the two countries still outweighs the economic benefits Cuba could glean from enhanced South Korean capital investments.

How Illegal Trade Persists Between Cuba and North Korea

Despite the immense international controversy resulting from Cuba’s 2013 arms sales to North Korea, sporadic trade linkages between the two countries have continued largely unhindered. In January 2016, Cuba and North Korea developed a barter trade system, which officially involved transactions of sugar and railway equipment.

According to Curtis Melvin, an expert at the Washington D.C.-based U.S. Korea Institute, barter trade is an effective way for Cuba and North Korea to evade international sanctions without depleting their hard currency reserves. Cuba’s use of sugar as a medium of bilateral trade has close parallels with Myanmar’s historical use of rice in exchange for North Korean military technology assistance. This form of trade has been vital for the North Korean regime’s survival in wake of the Soviet collapse and more inconsistent patronage from China.

While Cuba’s ability to use North Korean railway equipment remains unclear, NK News reported in January that Kim Jong-un was planning to modernize the DPRK’s railway networks, This development initiative could result in heavy industry production that can be bartered to Havana.

While trade in civilian goods between Cuba and North Korea appears to be on the upswing, trade in illicit arms continues to be the most symbolically potent and controversial form of bilateral trade. A 2013 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) report noted that a large number of North Korean arms brokers speak fluent Spanish. This language training demonstrates the importance of Cuba as a trade destination for the DPRK. The SIPRI report notes that Cuban arms dealers are especially attractive because they can deal with North Korea with a sense of impunity. This contrasts sharply with a British arms dealer who faced prison time in 2012 for purchasing North Korean weapons.

While the 2013 incident remains the most recent confirmed incident of weapons trading between Havana and Pyongyang, recent revelations of a lost U.S. Hellfire missile turning up in Cuba have sparked fresh concerns about a revival of the long-standing arms trade.

Cuba has consistently insisted that its arm shipments to the DPRK are for repair purposes, and therefore do not violate sanctions, which only ban one-way arms transfers. But Mary O’Grady of the Wall Street Journal recently speculated that Cuba’s intelligence sharing and close cooperation with the DPRK constituted a highly pernicious blow to the prospects of U.S.-Cuba normalization.

While the Obama administration has removed Cuba from the state sponsors of terrorism list and taken a big stride toward lifting the Kennedy-era embargo on Cuba, Havana’s continued cooperation with Pyongyang is an alarming blow to the normalization process. The current linkage between anti-Americanism and the Cuban Communist Party’s regime security makes a shift in Havana’s North Korea policy unlikely in the short-term. It remains to be seen if Castro’s planned retirement in 2018 will take Cuban foreign policy in a more pragmatic direction, and allow South Korean diplomatic overtures to finally be successful.

ray, without going into the rights or wrongs of it (personally, if NK was wiped from the face of the earth, i'd think it a good thing), what on earth do american presidents/governments expect when they try and cut off a country from the rest of the world? of course, havana will look for any trading partners it can find. they get forced into these decisions and dealing with the bottom of the barrel. does the states expect havana to stand up and say, 'hey, the US does not want us to deal with NK or whomsoever, so we will do what they suggest, even if our country suffers because of it'?

if this imbecilic embargo had not been implemented decades ago, or had it been removed any time since, perhaps this would not be happening.

also, how the hell do you lose a missile? i would not be concerned it turned up in cuba (they are just as likely to shoot themselves, if the military is like everything else down there) but that someone lost it in the first place.

[clutch5150]

Ironically reading the latest issues of Aficionado they are reporting the soaring crazy prices we are currently seeing for hotels, food and transportation even though the US airlines are seeing slowdowns, all this of course before this announcement.

Gonna be interesting to see what happens with the POTUS announcement next week on Cuba and what impacts it has on these crazy price hikes. Maybe not short term but when those hotels all of a sudden are not filling up anymore or maybe US tourism slow down won't really have much impact at all...

[Smallclub]

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

[Customsfan]

Found this interesting.  Not too long of an article. "Buy Your Flights to Cuba Fast"

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/1/15724496/trump-cuba-travel

[TCContender]

11 hours ago, Smallclub said:

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

Seems the US is just playing catchup to European arms dealers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-arms-idUSKCN10X1MM

[TCContender]

Duplicate post
 

[Kbb]

27 minutes ago, TCContender said:

Seems the US is just playing catchup to European arms dealers:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-arms-idUSKCN10X1MM

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/france-saudi-arabias-new-arms-dealer-13533

[PigFish]

14 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

ray, without going into the rights or wrongs of it (personally, if NK was wiped from the face of the earth, i'd think it a good thing), what on earth do american presidents/governments expect when they try and cut off a country from the rest of the world? of course, havana will look for any trading partners it can find. they get forced into these decisions and dealing with the bottom of the barrel. does the states expect havana to stand up and say, 'hey, the US does not want us to deal with NK or whomsoever, so we will do what they suggest, even if our country suffers because of it'?

if this imbecilic embargo had not been implemented decades ago, or had it been removed any time since, perhaps this would not be happening.

also, how the hell do you lose a missile? i would not be concerned it turned up in cuba (they are just as likely to shoot themselves, if the military is like everything else down there) but that someone lost it in the first place.

Like it or not Ken, I see 'sides.' I see both good and evil, better or worse, freedom and tyranny. One state is better than the other.

The allies and axis were different! There is a difference of opportunity, freedom, fairness, kindness, goodness, Godliness (dare I say it in a reply to you!!! -LOL) it an Constitutional Republic state verses a Marxist state. At least there is in mine. Go out in the street of Cuba and burn one of their flags and you will find out the difference in a hurry.

NorKo threatens (states that it can actually attack) closer to you than me. Are you saying that you are indifferent to such a government?

I do see sides Ken. I see the Australian government as different from my own as well, but not as inherently evil (just as example).

I have to wonder, if Round Kim Fat were stating daily that he is going to attack Australia, would think a little differently about Cuba trading with her?

Now the America haters will likely emerge and mention slavery in the Americas, or the American Indian... blah, blah blah... I don't expect that some people will ever get that there are evil people in the world. They blame things... economy, education, natural resources, trade... and yet never recognize that a country may have all or none of that, yet choose a path that fosters more liberty than less liberty or vise versa. There are two sides to everything and any argument can be supported if one decides to take up the flag.

Ken, these people hate our (collective) guts. I hear holy men of other countries calling us the big Satan. I see videos of the Norks and the ChiComs showing cities being destroyed by their nuclear weapons... My cities! I don't see them nuking Sydney... (in their propaganda videos) but you guys are not exempt.

Man, our kids are not shown that stuff in school. We are not teaching kids here to want to nuke the NorKo's! Frankly most in my country are too damn dumbed down and propagandized to fear and loathe communism. One party in our country almost put one up for president.

Do you know how many people global communism/socialism has killed? They even hate each other and their different factions. These guys are killing each other as fast as they kill proponents of freedom.

Would it have been different Ken? Maybe! Perhaps all of South American, and Asia would have been different too...! Frankly, I don't see it as an argument, not a sensible one anyway. So I have to ask, other than playing a 'devils' advocate position, why would one even bring it up, a rational for trading with Cuba, except to diffuse responsibility from such a state? This is how I view your specific argument.

What did I expect from Cuba? I expect them to stand up for NorKo just like they did for Venezuela. I expect them to put resources in, just like they did in Angola. I expect them to starve and deprive their own people so that they can supply arms to further global communism. If you feed communists, they don't feed their own at home, they take the wealth savings and attempt to spur communism somewhere else on the globe. Now what good does that do?

From your argument Ken, and I know that you like to make specific arguments, I only see a vailed approach to be a passive and show understanding of a communist state. I have no such understanding. I will given them no quarter.

I am going to state this again, just so it does not get skimmed over. You and I have had many debates, and frankly we look at things differently. As I see you and your style, you enjoy discussing one small sliver of a topic. It is an observation, not a criticism. Cuban trade was a part of the article, I get it, I therefore brought it up! But that is not my point. My point is that communists support other communists regardless of 'how nice' you play with them. They don't feed their own people. People to communist are chattel property of the state. They are 'owned' already! Why feed your own, when you can own more? Sorry mate, this is how communists think.

What you choose to debate from the menu is not a criticism, nor a criticism of you. But we are talking across each other here yet again. In my mind, one cannot rationalize (lets say debate) something such as communism on a single merit (if one wants to attribute merits to the system). I believe you like to do this... I don't!

This then is not what do I expect from Cuba becasue my country is so bad to her, but what Cuba does do with the aid others give it? I expect them to neglect their own people and raise hell elsewhere on the planet promoting communism with the resources. It is what communists do! It is what Cuba does and has done!

This then is not a 'trading partner' debate, even though this is what I see you commenting on. This is about one group of murdering thugs helping another group of murdering thugs do what it can to do as much damage to global freedom as it can.

You know, Cuba gets most of its food and medicine from the US...? And what good has it done? These people still hate our guts (the government does) because of what we represent. Being better to Cuba will not make the Cuban government like us, or less likely to take the resources to other parts of the globe to promote other communist revolutions! What is does is allow them to spread out the tentacles (as they have done in the past) to infect other countries with communism. While their own people have so little, they buy arms, and send them and military aid to other emerging communists. They have a record of doing this.

Being nice to them Ken... in my book is akin to breeding rabid dogs.

Sorry mate. Trade has consequences. And I don't want to feed a small oligarchy of madmen so that they can stir up trouble in another part of the world though another small oligarchy of madmen!

Lastly. This has been a detailed post where I have attempted to bring the topic back to my own position. I hope it was not taken personally. Not my intent... We are simply discussing micro verses a macro view of trade with Cuba.

Would things be different? Well, perhaps even greater portions of the world would now be controlled by communist thugs. As I said, there is more than one way to view events. So I ask you then. If I consider your view, will you consider mine. Will you put a number on the dead that may have resulted from the Cuban communists feeding other communists in other counties with the money we sent?

I think many people have a very shallow view of what communists do and why. Does this make US foreign policy 'right' in all cases? Certainly not... But that is not my point in posting. If one wants to attack US foreign policy bring it up and go ahead and chat about it all you want. In my mind, fighting global communism is good foreign policy.

Yes, along with smoking cigars from Cuba, I am typing on a keyboard likely made in China! There, I said it before someone else did...! -LOL

Cheers mate, enjoy a nice cigar (take one of Robs) and pretend I gave it to you! Mine are likely to skinny and small for you anyway!

-Ray