Trump Cuba Policy Announcement


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3 hours ago, planetary said:

To me, this is about whether to politically capitalize in the short term (keeping the embargo in place while posturing with Cuban expats, and draping the flag around your shoulders) or the long term (easing/eliminating the embargo) by letting the consequences of capitalism and It's associated freedoms seep into Cuba, indirect and slow though it may be.

Quite so.

The embargo has been tried.  It has not worked.  So let's try a different approach.  

Let us try corroding their ideology with Baywatch and rap music, show them the delights, achievements and benefits of our way rather than preaching, haranguing and castigating them for all their failings from a high moral horse that is all too easily undermined.  

Above all, let us use the most corrosive power know to Man: money.  Open up to trade and business, and yes, in the short run it will probably give aid and comfort to the Castro regime ... but in the long run?  Trade with them, and we addict them to the money, goods and services it brings.  Put money in their coffers, and sooner rather than later they will not be able to do without.  When we buy their cigars and rum and sugar and tourist destinations, we tie a string round their metaphorical balls with every dollar (or euro or pound) we spend.  When we invest in their infrastructure and sell them goods and services, we do more of the same.   It is far easier to do without something that you never had in the first place than to lose services, goods, or amenities that make life so much easier, so much more comfortable and pleasant.  To put it another way: it is far, FAR easier for the Castro regime to force the Cuban people to do without something they never had in the first place than to tell them to give it all up again.

 

3 hours ago, planetary said:

Interestingly, politicians as diverse as President Obama and Senator Rand Paul favor the latter approach -- and I believe they tend to be longer-term thinkers, and less splashy politicians.  People whose minds are clouded with recency bias, and political expediency in the state of Florida, favor the former.

*shrug* Whatever happens, this too shall pass.

Political expediency is a feature of all sides.  Left or right, centrist or extremist, we all have ample experience of holding our noses while making convenient deals with unsavoury folk.  We dealt with dictators like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein when it was convenient of run to do so.  We sold (and sell) arms to regimes that are utterly repugnant to us when it serves our ends (can you spell "Saudi Arabia"?).  Why should Cuba be any different?

 

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You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

History continues to be re-witten on cigar forums! The FDA was given 'specific' authority by congress to 'kill' tobacco. Look who voted for it! Read about Mitch Zeller!!! Saying that 'the FD

Fugu, Thanks for picking up on that nuance. And now for the ugly truth.  I'm 40 years of age. I left while I was still a pup, but have plenty of family affected. My maternal side of the fami

The remittance part can be bypassed via companies in other countries....if you have no issue circumventing the system. It was done alot during those times you speak. Bush was so stupid on that. And let's not forget that Bush is the reason for our 10% tax on USA. Was directly in retaliation for the cutting if remittances.

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On June 10, 2017 at 10:56 PM, Smallclub said:

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

Wow!  Seems like throwing stones whilst living in a glass house.  WE sell arms to Saudi Arabia... France included and a host of others.  Let's all be big enough boys to take the blame.  

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The remittance part can be bypassed via companies in other countries....if you have no issue circumventing the system. It was done alot during those times you speak. Bush was so stupid on that. And let's not forget that Bush is the reason for our 10% tax on USA. Was directly in retaliation for the cutting if remittances.

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Yeah. You can get there via 3rd countries too. Unfortunately my career doesn't afford me those options/loopholes.

And I certainly don't forget the 10% tax. I see his face every time I pay it!





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1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

For the record. www.cnn.com/2015/01/12/americas/cuba-prisoners-release/index.html

Cuba has freed all 53 political prisoners it had promised torelease as part as an historic rapprochement with the United States, a U.S.official ...

Now you may criticise the deal....and many of us certainly wondered what the Cuban Govt gave up. 

So the US has one policy... absolutely no foreign policy stability?  Brilliant. 

So every man and his dog from Google to Sheraton to airlines to telecommunications goes and puts dollars in because they are told it is OK to do so and now?

What a clusterf**k. 

 

 

 

C'mon Rob...everybody knows our gov't does clusterf**ks so very well!   

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12 hours ago, PigFish said:

Like it or not Ken, I see 'sides.' I see both good and evil, better or worse, freedom and tyranny. One state is better than the other.

The allies and axis were different! There is a difference of opportunity, freedom, fairness, kindness, goodness, Godliness (dare I say it in a reply to you!!! -LOL) it an Constitutional Republic state verses a Marxist state. At least there is in mine. Go out in the street of Cuba and burn one of their flags and you will find out the difference in a hurry.

NorKo threatens (states that it can actually attack) closer to you than me. Are you saying that you are indifferent to such a government?

I do see sides Ken. I see the Australian government as different from my own as well, but not as inherently evil (just as example).

I have to wonder, if Round Kim Fat were stating daily that he is going to attack Australia, would think a little differently about Cuba trading with her?

Now the America haters will likely emerge and mention slavery in the Americas, or the American Indian... blah, blah blah... I don't expect that some people will ever get that there are evil people in the world. They blame things... economy, education, natural resources, trade... and yet never recognize that a country may have all or none of that, yet choose a path that fosters more liberty than less liberty or vise versa. There are two sides to everything and any argument can be supported if one decides to take up the flag.

Ken, these people hate our (collective) guts. I hear holy men of other countries calling us the big Satan. I see videos of the Norks and the ChiComs showing cities being destroyed by their nuclear weapons... My cities! I don't see them nuking Sydney... (in their propaganda videos) but you guys are not exempt.

Man, our kids are not shown that stuff in school. We are not teaching kids here to want to nuke the NorKo's! Frankly most in my country are too damn dumbed down and propagandized to fear and loathe communism. One party in our country almost put one up for president.

Do you know how many people global communism/socialism has killed? They even hate each other and their different factions. These guys are killing each other as fast as they kill proponents of freedom.

Would it have been different Ken? Maybe! Perhaps all of South American, and Asia would have been different too...! Frankly, I don't see it as an argument, not a sensible one anyway. So I have to ask, other than playing a 'devils' advocate position, why would one even bring it up, a rational for trading with Cuba, except to diffuse responsibility from such a state? This is how I view your specific argument.

What did I expect from Cuba? I expect them to stand up for NorKo just like they did for Venezuela. I expect them to put resources in, just like they did in Angola. I expect them to starve and deprive their own people so that they can supply arms to further global communism. If you feed communists, they don't feed their own at home, they take the wealth savings and attempt to spur communism somewhere else on the globe. Now what good does that do?

From your argument Ken, and I know that you like to make specific arguments, I only see a vailed approach to be a passive and show understanding of a communist state. I have no such understanding. I will given them no quarter.

I am going to state this again, just so it does not get skimmed over. You and I have had many debates, and frankly we look at things differently. As I see you and your style, you enjoy discussing one small sliver of a topic. It is an observation, not a criticism. Cuban trade was a part of the article, I get it, I therefore brought it up! But that is not my point. My point is that communists support other communists regardless of 'how nice' you play with them. They don't feed their own people. People to communist are chattel property of the state. They are 'owned' already! Why feed your own, when you can own more? Sorry mate, this is how communists think.

What you choose to debate from the menu is not a criticism, nor a criticism of you. But we are talking across each other here yet again. In my mind, one cannot rationalize (lets say debate) something such as communism on a single merit (if one wants to attribute merits to the system). I believe you like to do this... I don't!

This then is not what do I expect from Cuba becasue my country is so bad to her, but what Cuba does do with the aid others give it? I expect them to neglect their own people and raise hell elsewhere on the planet promoting communism with the resources. It is what communists do! It is what Cuba does and has done!

This then is not a 'trading partner' debate, even though this is what I see you commenting on. This is about one group of murdering thugs helping another group of murdering thugs do what it can to do as much damage to global freedom as it can.

You know, Cuba gets most of its food and medicine from the US...? And what good has it done? These people still hate our guts (the government does) because of what we represent. Being better to Cuba will not make the Cuban government like us, or less likely to take the resources to other parts of the globe to promote other communist revolutions! What is does is allow them to spread out the tentacles (as they have done in the past) to infect other countries with communism. While their own people have so little, they buy arms, and send them and military aid to other emerging communists. They have a record of doing this.

Being nice to them Ken... in my book is akin to breeding rabid dogs.

Sorry mate. Trade has consequences. And I don't want to feed a small oligarchy of madmen so that they can stir up trouble in another part of the world though another small oligarchy of madmen!

Lastly. This has been a detailed post where I have attempted to bring the topic back to my own position. I hope it was not taken personally. Not my intent... We are simply discussing micro verses a macro view of trade with Cuba.

Would things be different? Well, perhaps even greater portions of the world would now be controlled by communist thugs. As I said, there is more than one way to view events. So I ask you then. If I consider your view, will you consider mine. Will you put a number on the dead that may have resulted from the Cuban communists feeding other communists in other counties with the money we sent?

I think many people have a very shallow view of what communists do and why. Does this make US foreign policy 'right' in all cases? Certainly not... But that is not my point in posting. If one wants to attack US foreign policy bring it up and go ahead and chat about it all you want. In my mind, fighting global communism is good foreign policy.

Yes, along with smoking cigars from Cuba, I am typing on a keyboard likely made in China! There, I said it before someone else did...! -LOL

Cheers mate, enjoy a nice cigar (take one of Robs) and pretend I gave it to you! Mine are likely to skinny and small for you anyway!

-Ray

Ray, first the most important issue – I did refer to cigarettes (not nails, not that I recall) but that is for little short things. Skinny is different to short!

Now, no argument re ‘sides’ and I'm not sure I suggested anything to the contrary, unless you are presuming I am taking sides against the States. Australia and America are probably as closely linked in so many ways, mostly good ways, as any ally of the US. But that does not mean I, or I hope the Australian govt, would ever follow the US line without question or always agree. If you want to go down the track of right and wrong, then on this issue, I am convinced that the US has got it wrong time after time for decades. During that period, they have got many things right. But not this.

There are other things – to digress, could there be a more important issue facing the planet than climate change? And the US is getting that spectacularly wrong. The cost to all countries might end up being more than anyone can afford (I suspect that the barn door is wide open, the horse has fled and what is being done by all countries is too little, too late). But back to topic.

One can take the high road in relation to the actions over decades by the Castro’s and Cuba, and justifiably so, but they were largely pushed into that position right from the start of Castro’s time in power. There are endless versions depending on who wrote the history but my understanding was that Castro went to the States to try and establish good relations. He was basically told to bugger off and then the States is stunned because he ended up falling into the arms of their enemies. I know that is an extremely simple version.

Ray, you raised the concept of dogs. Well, if a dog comes up to you with no malice and you beat the thing and mistreat it year after year, expressing surprise that the dog doesn’t do what you tell it to do suggests an extraordinary arrogance or downright dimwittedness.

I have no doubt that the embargo has been a key reason that the Castro’s have retained power for so long. And as for the future, it has not worked for fifty years – does anyone really think that suddenly the Cuban government will say, oh hell, they were right. We should go. Maintain the embargo, regress the small advances made and you are playing into the hands of the very people you claim to oppose.

I'll leave the godliness to one side, for both our sakes. (well, I tried but inevitably…)

Axis and allies? Seriously? You compare a tiny island that has been bullied by the neighbouring superpower for decades with the actions of Nazi Germany? Just a bit of a stretch?

Burning flags? I dare say that if I walked out onto a street in pretty much anywhere in the States and fired up the flag, I'd be lucky to escape with my life. Not sure any nation takes it well.

Ray, with the greatest respect (and coming from an ex-lawyer, you know I mean it), you have a serial habit of misquoting or placing words in my mouth. On what planet have I ever suggested I am indifferent to North Korea? You are quoting the very post in which I say “(personally, if NK was wiped from the face of the earth, I’d think it a good thing)” and you come up with this? If wiped from the face of the earth means indifference, we are in strife if I ever get serious about them.

The embargo – you can paint it as upholding human rights and all the stars and light in the world but (and let’s not even touch those things you mention like slavery et al), when you basically limit it to little tiny countries, and conveniently ignore similar offences by trading partners, allies and larger enemies, it comes off as bullying. And it does not look good. Especially when it has had bugger all positive impact. These days, it looks like nothing more than saving face.

You say these people hate your guts. Actually, the people don’t. The governments and religious nutters du jour might, but the people rarely do. It might be a while ago but my time in Iran was amazing – and this was at a time when relations between the two nations were far worse than at the moment. I talked to a heap of the “people” and they were genuinely interested in America, the people, the fashion, the music, what life was like. They did not like your government but then there are plenty around the world and in your own country not terribly fond of your government either. Cubans don’t hate Americans – I’ve never met any that do. They may fear your government but they certainly do not hate the people. And this is at least a country where any hatred can’t be sheeted home to religious fanatics.

“My point is that communists support other communists regardless of 'how nice' you play with them. They don't feed their own people. People to communist are chattel property of the state. They are 'owned' already! Why feed your own, when you can own more? Sorry mate, this is how communists think.” Ray, this is 60s stuff. Russia and China, always such close mates. To suggest all communist states are the same is as blinkered and silly – and wrong – as suggesting all non-communist states are the same. And that is not, in any way, any form of an endorsement of any form of communism (or indeed, non-communist state).

“In my mind, one cannot rationalize (let’s say debate) something such as communism on a single merit (if one wants to attribute merits to the system). I believe you like to do this... I don't!” Ray, yet again this is concocting an argument and then attributing it to me. It is a garbage way to debate something. When have I ever tried to rationalise communism? You believe I do this? On the basis of what? My post had nothing to do with justifying or rationalising communism or supporting it or anything like that. My post did nothing other than criticise the actions of the US government in imposing and maintaining a failed embargo. That does not equate to support for something else. And you have tried to drag me into an argument where I am portrayed as some supporter of communism. Yes, I do take that a little bit personally. Who wouldn’t? Happy to debate all these things any time, but I have never enjoyed having others misrepresent my position. I do feel that has been done here. But I am always happy to consider other points of view.

“Will you put a number on the dead that may have resulted from the Cuban communists feeding other communists in other counties with the money we sent?” What money? And this really does open endless cans of worms. The US hardly comes to this argument with clean hands. But, and I tried to keep religion out of it, put a number on the dead that has resulted from religion. You’d be adding a long line of zeros to any figure that one could attribute to either communists or the US. Will you be taking up the cudgels against religion? That would save some lives and alleviate endless misery.

Finally, I think that you may have had a point as to the Cuban role in the attempt to spread communism several decades ago. I think you massively overestimate their influence these days. They get far less aid than they used to, they are having enough trouble keeping their head above water to be sending forth invading armies or disciples or whatever. Do you really think Cuba is a threat to the States these days? I suspect that if you do, that would come as a rather big surprise to the Cubans.

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On 6/9/2017 at 9:10 PM, SenorPerfecto said:

Agree on the don't screw things up part, but with this incompetent it's near impossible he won't screw up everything he touches.

 

As to the "Obama interfered with Cigars" idea, it happened when Obama was in office but that was the FDA, and they were/are trying to regulate the unregulated Vape industry. Should they have exempted premium cigars? Probably. But hardly an Obama initiative. Tsk.

 

As to the $250k per product canard, tsk again. Sure there are cigar makers who are screaming that the sky is falling; it's their bread and butter. But it's nowhere close to $250k. Not in the ballpark. More like $5k, and if you can't pay that you don't have much of a company.

 

The GOP loses Florida and they lose the White House and the Senate. So to keep Florida, they bend over when the cuban-American community there (who are relentlessly conservative in every way) tells them to.

 

Trump does what benefits Trump, period. Anyone who says otherwise is a dupe. He's a con man and a TV game show host. This term can't end soon enough.

You may be right on the 5k vs 250k. I am repeating what I heard from a friend who owns 2 cigar shops. I don't care if it's 5$ or 5cents- not the function of the govt none of their business. I just wonder if Altimas or General cigar had a hand in to push out the little guys?

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Damn shame Everybody who I know who has gone had a great time. I had planned on going this fall but have not bought any tickets

Cuba is harboring some fugitives one of which mirdered a NJ state trooper. I figured this was going to be part of the demands by Trump

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14 hours ago, Troels said:

That france does so as well, doesnt change the fact that US does - I guess you can say that the cuban trade ethics is approaching an international normal ?

I think Piggy was noting the hypocrisy of a French poster pointing fingers at the US, when France sells three times as much weaponry to Saudi Arabia.

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20 minutes ago, TCContender said:

I think Piggy was noting the hypocrisy of a French poster pointing fingers at the US, when France sells three times as much weaponry to Saudi Arabia.

Character assassination, which some people use in lieu of actual arguments...

I could never understand the glass house standard. I am not solely responsible for anything the government in my country does. I nonetheless will express my disapproval of anything anybody does if I feel it might be immoral, be it at home or abroad. Self righteous gonna hate ?

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6 minutes ago, Jeanff said:

Character assassination, which some people use in lieu of actual arguments...

I could never understand the glass house standard. I am not solely responsible for anything the government in my country does. I nonetheless will express my disapproval of anything anybody does if I feel it might be immoral, be it at home or abroad. Self righteous gonna hate ?

Sadly, you are correct in that many cannot understand how self-righteous vitriol is counterproductive to polite discourse.  A simple substitution of the finger pointing "you" with the collective "we" and hypocrisy is removed from the statement.  

Due diligence is so simple in the modern age.

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Damn shame Everybody who I know who has gone had a great time. I had planned on going this fall but have not bought any tickets

Cuba is harboring some fugitives one of which mirdered a NJ state trooper. I figured this was going to be part of the demands by Trump



Yup that's what he says.....and that America is not getting a fair deal. Really he is serving Florida ex pats and political payback. Plus if he wants a fairer deal for America, what is better than allowing business to do more business there.

Do you guys remember during the campaign, earlier on, the media asked Trump about cuba and he said he thought more relations were good. I was in Cuba watching the news when they showed a Trump Speech where he said he wanted to "Make Cuba great again".

Then a month or 2 later, after he was told he had to win Florida and the Batistas responded to his earlier words, he then gave a speak saying the deal was bad and how awful the human rights violations are, and how things have to change on his watch.

50+ years and the embargo gets nothing done. So we want to continue it?! Because we want improvement?! But with deal with similar countries in a totally different manner....... no the real reason is something else.



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I have no doubt that the embargo has been a key reason that the Castro’s have retained power for so long. And as for the future, it has not worked for fifty years – does anyone really think that suddenly the Cuban government will say, oh hell, they were right. We should go. Maintain the embargo, regress the small advances made and you are playing into the hands of the very people you claim to oppose.



+5 on this. It is not as easy to see now, since Castro stepped down and Obama eased, but 10-15 years ago and longer, it's was obvious. With just a little time there, one could see how the embargo was being used to try and create unity around a common enemy, and blame the US for all their wores, and it gave Castro a neverending excuse for any problems the island had...mainly arising from their socialism and his decisions.

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18 minutes ago, Ninja said:


Yup that's what he says.....and that America is not getting a fair deal. Really he is serving Florida ex pats and political payback. Plus if he wants a fairer deal for America, what is better than allowing business to do more business there.
 

The business the US would do ( like any other country right now ) would be with the 100% owners of the island, the military, in form of the GAESA Cuban military holding. There is nothing fair here and even less for the ordinary Cuban.

 

7 minutes ago, Ninja said:


It is not as easy to see now, since Castro stepped down and Obama eased, but 10-15 years ago and longer, it's was obvious.
 

 

Last I heard one Castro died and the other Castro is still in power ( along with a state council averaging +75 years old )   - Obama did ease, but the Cuban gvt. wasted 2 years thinking all would continue peaches & cream with Hillary.

But we can agree to disagree on that .... :)

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On 6/10/2017 at 10:56 PM, Smallclub said:

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

Cuba has a right to defend themselves and buy arms from any country they want.  US should've sold them arms instead as I feel it would be better to prevent NK from winning any arms deal...

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7 hours ago, MaxG said:

 

The fact that the embargo was and is used as an excuse for all ills does not mean that its removal would end the excuses.  They'd just find something else to blame.  Socialism doesn't, and in fact can't, work.  There will always be excuses and finger pointing to try and mislead the masses, but it doesn't change the big picture. 

sure, but if you take away something that has been key in the survival of this govt for decades, you make it that much harder for them. you make it that much more obvious to many cubans that the govt they have is perhaps not an ideal one - in so many ways.

there is no magic stroke but that does not mean getting rid of this embargo would not be a huge positive step.

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7 hours ago, MaxG said:

 

 Socialism doesn't, and in fact can't, work. 

 

 

I don't want to be a party pooper.....but recent evidence circa 2008 shows that Capitalism doesn't work either. The big get bigger, competition decreases, the chasing of labour to the cheapest provider,  power concentrates,  over reach and then....pop. 

Bail outs with play money is the stuff we use to "tutt tutt" at South American nations. 

 

.....mind you I love playing in the capitalism cess pit. :ok:

 

 

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3 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I don't want to be a party pooper.....but recent evidence circa 2008 shows that Capitalism doesn't work either. The big get bigger, competition decreases, the chasing of labour to the cheapest provider,  power concentrates,  over reach and then....pop. 

Bail outs with play money is the stuff we use to "tutt tutt" at South American nations. 

 

.....mind you I love playing in the capitalism cess pit. :ok:

 

 

You have a roof over your head, food and wine on the table and cigars in the humidor. Capitalism works!

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I don't want to argue the whys and wherefores of the embargo, but having lived through the entire span ( I was in college when the Cuba embargo was imposed). Frankly, in my opinion, it has been and abject failure. The USA was shut out completely, but all of our allies continued to trade with Cuba, invested in infrastructure and sent their tourists to Cuba on holiday. What did the USA get, nothing.

i live in the rural South. We raise rice, corn and soybeans, all products that the Cubans would and are now buying. While the exports are minuscule compared to our exports to other countries, every little bit helps. The  commodity groups such as the American Rice Council are eager to establish better trading relationships with Cuba. From what I have read, commodity exports were looking promising, however this may come to a screeching halt, depending on how far Trump goes in rolling back the previous administration's Cuba deals. 

As others have said, this rollback is Trumps payback to the ultra right Cuban exiles in South Florida that helped him carry the state. These are the ones who to me are dreaming of one day returning to Cuba and reclaiming all their property that was taken from them by the Castro regime. I have utmost sympathy for those folks. What was done to them was terrible, however, to be realistic reclaiming their property is a "pipe dream". It just isn't going to happen. They should be pushing for a revitalized Cuba which could possibly agree to reparations at some time in the future. 

What is really incredible to me is this complete reversal of the agreements that were signed over the past year or so. How do you explain to these American companies that have invested millions of dollars in planning and implementing the relaxed rules governing trade with Cuba? Sorry Sheraton, those hotels you were planning, telephone and internet companies, that infrastructure you were gearing up to build, cruise lines and airlines, those itineraries and flights you are running, and all the other businesses that are planning on investing in Cuba, deals off!! Trump is going to make a few old Cubans happy, but he is also going to make a lot of business people and the folks who work for them mighty unhappy. Probably in the long run a very poor decision, but viewing recent past history, that seems to be what Trump does best!

 

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22 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

You have a roof over your head, food and wine on the table and cigars in the humidor. Capitalism works!

No current system is perfect. However, to my mind, capitalism works better than the alternatives.

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