Trump Cuba Policy Announcement


Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, oakalley said:

I don't want to argue the whys and wherefores of the embargo, but having lived through the entire span ( I was in college when the Cuba embargo was imposed). Frankly, in my opinion, it has been and abject failure. The USA was shut out completely, but all of our allies continued to trade with Cuba, invested in infrastructure and sent their tourists to Cuba on holiday. What did the USA get, nothing.

i live in the rural South. We raise rice, corn and soybeans, all products that the Cubans would and are now buying. While the exports are minuscule compared to our exports to other countries, every little bit helps. The  commodity groups such as the American Rice Council are eager to establish better trading relationships with Cuba. From what I have read, commodity exports were looking promising, however this may come to a screeching halt, depending on how far Trump goes in rolling back the previous administration's Cuba deals. 

As others have said, this rollback is Trumps payback to the ultra right Cuban exiles in South Florida that helped him carry the state. These are the ones who to me are dreaming of one day returning to Cuba and reclaiming all their property that was taken from them by the Castro regime. I have utmost sympathy for those folks. What was done to them was terrible, however, to be realistic reclaiming their property is a "pipe dream". It just isn't going to happen. They should be pushing for a revitalized Cuba which could possibly agree to reparations at some time in the future. 

What is really incredible to me is this complete reversal of the agreements that were signed over the past year or so. How do you explain to these American companies that have invested millions of dollars in planning and implementing the relaxed rules governing trade with Cuba? Sorry Sheraton, those hotels you were planning, telephone and internet companies, that infrastructure you were gearing up to build, cruise lines and airlines, those itineraries and flights you are running, and all the other businesses that are planning on investing in Cuba, deals off!! Trump is going to make a few old Cubans happy, but he is also going to make a lot of business people and the folks who work for them mighty unhappy. Probably in the long run a very poor decision, but viewing recent past history, that seems to be what Trump does best!

 

it would have been even more traumatic the first time, i would imagine. chaotic this time, though any company that rushed in must have known the chances it was taking. they knew there was a good possibility of a change of administration in the US and if the republicans won, this could happen. they took their chance on being first, with the potential profits that could emerge. none of that is in any way meant to justify such a reversal or to show any implicit support - the contrary. but surely they knew there would be risks.

also, the 'capitalism is better' argument is a bit rich when one uses a small, near bankrupt island as the competition (and yes, again, i am in the capitalism boat), when that island has been forced to survive on handouts and been forced into a system by the very opponents claiming victory. be a bit like federer claiming victory at wimbledon when he forced the opponent to be a one-legged old man who was not allowed a racquet with strings.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 209
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

You can hardly blame Cuba for buying arms from NK when you sell arms to countries like Saudi Arabia…

History continues to be re-witten on cigar forums! The FDA was given 'specific' authority by congress to 'kill' tobacco. Look who voted for it! Read about Mitch Zeller!!! Saying that 'the FD

Fugu, Thanks for picking up on that nuance. And now for the ugly truth.  I'm 40 years of age. I left while I was still a pup, but have plenty of family affected. My maternal side of the fami

6 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

also, the 'capitalism is better' argument is a bit rich when one uses a small, near bankrupt island as the competition (and yes, again, i am in the capitalism boat), when that island has been forced to survive on handouts and been forced into a system by the very opponents claiming victory. be a bit like federer claiming victory at wimbledon when he forced the opponent to be a one-legged old man who was not allowed a racquet with strings.

From someone in the opposite boat, thank you for pointing this out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

it would have been even more traumatic the first time, i would imagine. chaotic this time, though any company that rushed in must have known the chances it was taking. they knew there was a good possibility of a change of administration in the US and if the republicans won, this could happen. they took their chance on being first, with the potential profits that could emerge. none of that is in any way meant to justify such a reversal or to show any implicit support - the contrary. but surely they knew there would be risks.

also, the 'capitalism is better' argument is a bit rich when one uses a small, near bankrupt island as the competition (and yes, again, i am in the capitalism boat), when that island has been forced to survive on handouts and been forced into a system by the very opponents claiming victory. be a bit like federer claiming victory at wimbledon when he forced the opponent to be a one-legged old man who was not allowed a racquet with strings.

Ken, please show me a better current system than capitalism. Cuba is "near bankrupt" not because of capitalism, but communism. Cuba is free to engage in trade with every other country on this planet, except the US. If their system worked even the big bad US of A couldn't keep them down. Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo. The embargo is outmoded and ineffective at encouraging positive change of any kind in Cuba. Irregardless, the US has forced them into nothing. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, FLB03TT said:

Ken, please show me a better current system than capitalism. Cuba is "near bankrupt" not because of capitalism, but communism. Cuba is free to engage in trade with every other country on this planet, except the US. If their system worked even the big bad US of A couldn't keep them down. Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo. The embargo is outmoded and ineffective at encouraging positive change of any kind in Cuba. Irregardless, the US has forced them into nothing. 

if you read what i posted, i have said i am in the capitalism boat. i don't know of a better system and have never suggested that there is (who knows, someone might work one out eventually).

as for Cuba, the US left them little choice from the very start of Castro's regime and with Castro and the military in charge, that has been the mire that they have been stuck in for decades. agree re your comments on the the embargo effectiveness and it is certainly not the sole reason, but absolutely not in respect of whether or not the US forced them into anything. think of UN votes, influencing of allies in trade and attitudes - the US has done its best to crush the country. how much of the economy went into the Cuban military in order to try and protect themselves from invasion (bay of pigs, anyone? how many attempts to assassinate their leader)? why wouldn't they support enemies of the US given everything the US has done to them?

does anyone really think that Cuba would be such a basket case in so many ways if it did not have this pernicious millstone around its neck. the people that this embargo has hurt are not the Castros and those ruling the country - it has helped keep them in power. it has hurt the ordinary people.

it is always a wonder to me that the Cuban people look on americans, as opposed to the american govt, so fondly given how much damage has been done to them and their country.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, FLB03TT said:

Ken, please show me a better current system than capitalism. Cuba is "near bankrupt" not because of capitalism, but communism. Cuba is free to engage in trade with every other country on this planet, except the US. If their system worked even the big bad US of A couldn't keep them down. Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo. The embargo is outmoded and ineffective at encouraging positive change of any kind in Cuba. Irregardless, the US has forced them into nothing. 

Cuba is "near bankrupt" not because of capitalism, but communism

Who do Capitalist countries blame?  (Take away the money printers and few are solvent). 

 

Cuba is free to engage in trade with every other country on this planet, except the US

Not quite. The embargo restricts Non US companies doing business with Cuba from doing business in the USA. Banking in particular.  It makes certain industries a global ban on cuba. 

Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo.

Agreed. The system is flawed/failed, the government incompetent. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Cuba is "near bankrupt" not because of capitalism, but communism

Who do Capitalist countries blame?  (Take away the money printers and few are solvent). 

In a stunning display of even-handed fairness, every government blames their predecessor.  Particularly if they were of the opposing party.

Many of the problems in our respective countries would be solved -- or at least solvable -- if our respective establishments would only stop behaving like children in the playground, trying to score petty points off each other and trying to blame each other for everything under the sun from bin collections to climate change and instead accepted their collective responsibility to help fix our problems.  

I guess this shows just how naive and blindly optimistic I am...

 

2 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

 

Cuba is free to engage in trade with every other country on this planet, except the US

Not quite. The embargo restricts Non US companies doing business with Cuba from doing business in the USA. Banking in particular.  It makes certain industries a global ban on cuba. 

Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo.

Agreed. The system is flawed/failed, the government incompetent. 

I think we are all pretty much agreed on that.

Sadly, our energies seem to be fully focussed on shouting about these flaws and incompetence and thumping tubs in totally unrealistic demands to return to the status ante quo rather than figuring out ways for a peaceful transition to a better system of governance.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Their plight is surely not solely due to the US embargo.

Agreed. The system is flawed/failed, the government incompetent. 

i doubt anyone believes that the embargo is the sole reason for their plight. yes, an incompetent govt. however, the embargo has played a considerable role in allowing that govt to stay in power.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/11/2017 at 4:35 PM, ElJavi76 said:

Dgixxer, 

I'm a Cuban exile myself with family still in Cuba. I do have political leanings and they all tilt right. The embargo has done its job. Keep money, specifically USD, away from the Castro brothers. For people outside the island to say that Trump is a meanie and will deprive Cubans renting their homes thru AirBnb from making some cash. Read above... Most of the tourism isn't even coming from the states. The influx of cash to the island benefits the govt more than its citizens. Their markets where citizens can buy goods are empty and only markets that sell for foreign currency have the bare necessities. They're struggling with food shortages because people running luncheonettes out of their homes are buying all the food up to feed tourists. Juana and Martin can't afford food, but let's negotiate and play nice with the Castro regime so we can visit and smoke cigars in a time capsule of an island. 

 

It's absurd. My family can't wipe their a$$ with toilet paper but I can buy Behikes if I go back. My friends here all wanna go before the year's out, but I was born there. I get to pay $500+ USD for a Cuban passport that expires in 2 years and then get shaken down for more cash at the airport upon entry like my parents have all 7 times they've returned. I'm still holding out until maybe I can see some free elections in my lifetime. I'll keep buying my cigars thru 3rd countries. The day that's not possible I'll bring my consumption down on my Cubans and cherish them until I can buy again or go smoke one in a real CUBA LIBRE. 

 

I haven't read a single line here about the Obama administration not meeting with Las Damas de Blanco (a disident group fighting for basic human rights) when the embassy was reopened or how he ended dry foot / wet foot as he left office as a backhand to the exiles who put Trump in the Whitehouse. As the son of a political prisoner, whose only crime was to not be a willing member of the communist party and a man who couldn't bury his mother when she passed away, I support tightening things up on the Castro's. Those idiots wanted reparations from the US govt for loses to their tourism due to the embargo. Gimme a break. 

 

Viva una Cuba libre, y específicamente libre de los hermanos Castro y su socialismo.

Our stories are very similar. I went a couple months ago with my father who hadn't been in 48 years. All he did was cry at every landmark from havana to San Antonio de los banos where we are from. Its a sad scene indeed and I can 100% confirm that the paladares are buying up all the food, that basic necessities have become unrealistically expensive, and my Tia and primos on the island haven't seen an iota of change in their daily lives.

I went and wanted to but cigars of course but the guilt i felt when I went to club havana's lcdh was too much. How could I go and spend hundreds on cigars when my family didn't have basic needs? That money went straight to them to spend on the black market, not to cigars or the Castro regime...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Soooo.....politics back on the table at FOH?  We have gone from discussing "what if" such and such is said Friday, to the embargo, to pointing out the flaws in different types of government, and now to calling the US government incompetent.  I love the international debate, just trying to grasp the rules again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, dgixxer252525 said:

Our stories are very similar. I went a couple months ago with my father who hadn't been in 48 years. All he did was cry at every landmark from havana to San Antonio de los banos where we are from. Its a sad scene indeed and I can 100% confirm that the paladares are buying up all the food, that basic necessities have become unrealistically expensive, and my Tia and primos on the island haven't seen an iota of change in their daily lives.

I went and wanted to but cigars of course but the guilt i felt when I went to club havana's lcdh was too much. How could I go and spend hundreds on cigars when my family didn't have basic needs? That money went straight to them to spend on the black market, not to cigars or the Castro regime...

My sympathy goes out to you and your family. My aunts and uncles that remain, along with cousins I've never met... They're all struggling. I'm from cigar country. I'm from Pinar del Río, Pinar del Río. (City so nice they named it twice. Province like the city itself.) 

People that don't know talk after they go and might have different POV's. My friend just came back and told me they're doing well man. They're doing really well. Nobody's begging in the streets and there's no crime to speak of. Cubans are a proud group of people. Not to say that anyone is above begging, but the sheer indoctrination that's gone on would inhibit the Cuban in their most dire of situations to not ask an American for anything. (Unless that person were family)

Quick anecdote... I was 15 or 16 and had my first after school job. Family of 5. Dad was a factory worker and mom worked at a Dunkin. (Neither of them made it beyond the 6th grade in Cuba. My father was working full time making rope at the age of 12.) Needless to say we grew up pretty broke. My father never bought me a single pair of Nike sneakers because of budget constraints. My after school job... I bought him his first pair of Nike shoes. Kind of a backhanded gift of sorts, but I wanted to give him some of what I'd been deprived of. That summer, my parents went back to Cuba via Canada. Upon his return I see my dad's sneakers are not the ones I bought for him. He had some beaters on. He was avoiding me. I asked my mom, where are dad's sneakers? He gave them to his brother. When he finally got around to explain it to 16 year old me... He said, it was my brother. There's no way he could afford shoes like those back home and if you saw what he was wearing you would've given them to your uncle too. My uncle told him you don't have to leave me money but could you please leave me the sneakers? Although it initially bothered my immature mind, I understood ultimately why he did it. Those shoes were always meant for my uncle. 

Some Cubans have made the best of a bad situation but it's not to say that they're living like us or anywhere near our level. My cousin came on a raft and floated out at sea for 3 days. He laughs now... I drive a BMW here. In Cuba I didn't even own bike. 

Political leanings aside... Who knows what it'll take for a true Cuba libre to emerge. A Cuba with free elections where those who don't want communism can have their voice heard. Unlike artists like the one below, who get arrested for voicing their disdain.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/cuban-artist-and-activist-el-sexto-abducted-and-detained-in-cuba-following-fidel-castros-death-8954018

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I gave up on the various 'isms' (as discussed theoretically in university class rooms) for explaining what actually takes place in the real world. - - - Except for hucksterism & gangsterism. That seems to be universal.

'Communist worker's paradise' ? Castro socked away at least a $1 Billion U.S. for himself. Some comrades are more equal than others. - Party big wigs rode around in chauffeured black limos and got all the Western goods they wanted in the USSR. Regular Soviet citizens waited in long lines for the chance to buy a little sub-par meat.

'Capitalist free market' ? When the big banks got in trouble due to their derivatives bets in 2008, they got bailed out on the backs of the American people. For them - profits are privatized, losses are socialized.Such largesse is not available to the average citizen. A recent study out of Yale Univ found that the average American citizen has little real influence in how national government is run. Power is held by a corporate/government oligarchy.

One of the most insightful books I have read is titled "The Dictator's Handbook". It illustrates that so-called 'democracies' and 'totalitarian' states have far more in common than many may suppose.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Kbb said:

Soooo.....politics back on the table at FOH?  We have gone from discussing "what if" such and such is said Friday, to the embargo, to pointing out the flaws in different types of government, and now to calling the US government incompetent.  I love the international debate, just trying to grasp the rules again.

Politics as they pertain to Cuba has always been on the table.  

Not sure how you missed that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Politics as they pertain to Cuba has always been on the table.  

Not sure how you missed that. 

No problem.  I did not miss the bent towards Cuba.  Just thought the general discussion was a knock on various countries politics globally.  I stand corrected. :2thumbs:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kbb said:

No problem.  I did not miss the bent towards Cuba.  Just thought the general discussion was a knock on various countries politics globally.  I stand corrected. :2thumbs:

No harm done :ok:

You will have some drift in a discussion but the threads (so far) in any drifting have been tied to the central topic of Cuba US embargo. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talk this evening is that two sources who have seen the White House and State Department recommendations have said that visits will be limited to one trip per year, "including for Cuban Americans."

The language used is interesting as it assumes that everyone will still get to make one trip a year.

What's also "interesting" is that if you find out a parent is terminally ill, you get a choice between a bedside visit or attend their funeral. ?



Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it really matter what U.S. economic policy is towards Cuba?  Unless the Government changes, and it won't unless overthrown, nothing will in fact change...the Cuban people will continue to get screwed.  I fear the only way to change Cuba is from the inside, a daunting task indeed.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, NYgarman said:

You have a roof over your head, food and wine on the table and cigars in the humidor. Capitalism works!

Were it not for capitalism I would be smoking swisher sweers?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does it really matter what U.S. economic policy is towards Cuba?  Unless the Government changes, and it won't unless overthrown, nothing will in fact change...the Cuban people will continue to get screwed.  I fear the only way to change Cuba is from the inside, a daunting task indeed.



In realpolitik, it doesn't matter that 'the people' get screwed. What does matter is the interests of those groups in a society with the real kind of power that allows the rulers to remain in place. It would take change on the inside - in both Cuba and the U.S. for this to take place. The question "What's in it for me?" must be answered favorably for the influential insider groups.

A glaring example of the above taking place is the history of U.S.-China political and trade relations since Nixon-Kissinger. The so-called 'ideology' blather of both sides was tossed out the window. Insider groups benefited in both countries, so that's the course of action that was taken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, JR Kipling said:

A glaring example of the above taking place is the history of U.S.-China political and trade relations since Nixon-Kissinger. The so-called 'ideology' blather of both sides was tossed out the window. Insider groups benefited in both countries, so that's the course of action that was taken.

 

Welcome, comrade! We'll get you your copy of the Communist Manifesto and Gap-made Che Guevara t-shirt mailed to you!

1917648_1292330900793608_1874866070037882596_n.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Communism' is a fraud. Che was a murderous psychopath. If I were to wear a t-shirt with someone's face on it (and I don't) please make mine with Thomas Jefferson. 'Capitalism' (as actually practiced at the national & international level) is also a fraud. 'Cronyism' is a better description than true free enterprise, where those who fail go bankrupt rather than get bailed out on the backs of the taxpayers.

Hucksterism and gangsterism is very prevalent across the so-called ideological spectrum, however. Its the long running battle between the producers and the plunderers.

And, no there is no Santa Claus either. Time to look beyond simplistic indoctrination IMO.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Painting with broad strokes is also a fraud. The system is working exactly the way it is intended to. There is no "true" free enterprise, which is also a fraud because it ignores historical and current international power dynamics, and only serves to maintain the status quo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah . . . one of those guys who likes to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Youre all over the place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.