ROTT vs. a few months age (does it really help?)

[Fugu]

7 hours ago, MaxG said:

Good point. We all seem to accept the 1 percentage point per week guide when changing rh levels, but then turn around and say a few hours to a few days in a dry box will make a significant difference.  I could never square that.

Packaging! (sorry didn't go thru the whole thread in case it has been mentioned already)

[Fugu]

5 hours ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Any hard data for this claim of 1% per week? Just curious, this thread is the first time I have heard of it. Seems reasonable, but it's nice to see sources.

Good question that is to the point!

That dreaded statement doesn't get any truer the more often it's being (re)cited...

The statement is (still) plain nonsense, since the function describing such a time course is an e-function (i.e. an asymptotic process tending to infinity).... and not a linear one!

Translated for a simple grasp: Given deltas (gradients) and all conditions being constant, the process is starting quick and becoming slower with continuing equalization (i.e. delta 'parameter' becoming smaller). So, don't expect any verification of such a claim, as its mathematically impossible.

And - it is not all about humidity.... just sayin' 

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, JR Kipling said:

 

Depends on how many cigars you have. Get a tupperware type container for smaller amounts. There are also larger plastic containers with locking lids and foam gaskets (I use some that are Ziploc brand.) I've also put boxes of cigars in tripled up freezer bags, for awhile. Of course youll need to include Boveda packs or some other RH control. All of these methods of storage will work. They actually hold RH better than the typical modestly priced desktop wood humidors that attract a lot of guys starting out.

I guess my point is that you don't have to wait to get an expensive humidor before you buy cigars.

... anyone that can afford a box of cigars can afford a humidor. Don't cheat the cigars that worked hard to acquire.

The above post is right on the money. No humidor, get some ziplock bags until you can get to the market and get a Tupperware or other sealed plastic box.

There really is no excuse for not caring for cigars. Start simple. Start cheap... but start somewhere! -Piggy

[BuzzArd]

2 hours ago, PigFish said:

... anyone that can afford a box of cigars can afford a humidor. Don't cheat the cigars that worked hard to acquire.

The above post is right on the money. No humidor, get some ziplock bags until you can get to the market and get a Tupperware or other sealed plastic box.

There really is no excuse for not caring for cigars. Start simple. Start cheap... but start somewhere! -Piggy

 Not politically correct I know, but I don't really care....

I feel the same way about a good gun safe. If you're willing to spend $2500 on a 12 gauge over/under you have to be willing to spend $1500 on a good place to keep it.  If something is important to you, take care of it.

[PigFish]

28 minutes ago, BuzzArd said:

 Not politically correct I know, but I don't really care....

I feel the same way about a good gun safe. If you're willing to spend $2500 on a 12 gauge over/under you have to be willing to spend $1500 on a good place to keep it.  If something is important to you, take care of it.

... we should not stray into this topic, for board rules reasons, so this will be my first and last response. One has a moral responsibility beyond the potential for monetary loss to do so. JHMO... as an owner of both. Far more important than cigars, and you know how serious I am about that!!! -Piggy

[TomF]

Look, let's just keep it simple, OK??

The answer to your question is yes.

[Riverstyx]

Thanks for all the feedback.  It's very interesting.  In conclusion, the primary reason for the 60-90 days seems to be due to the disruption caused by shipping.

 

(e.g. assuming my humidor is the exact same environment, the sticks still need rest after being rested in our host's humidor due to disruption from shipping.  Or an even better example - our host ships the sticks around the world back to himself, the cigars still need to rest for an additional 60-90 days.)

[joeypots]

A coolerdor provides a simple storage solution if one wants to have enough cigars on hand in order to avoid the temptation to smoke cigars before they have recovered from their journey. A good quality cooler with a tight fitting lid that will hold something like, say,  15 boxes of cigars with some kind of humidity regulation is a minimum expense compare to the cigars. Google coolerdor and answers will appear. Loads of people use coolerdors  keep enviable collections.

[WoadyCypress]

If I receive a box of 25 I usually smoke one ROTT. If it's a five sampler or a 10 box I let them acclimate for a month minimum. No need to waste a stick when I have a limited stock.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[PigFish]

3 hours ago, Riverstyx said:

Thanks for all the feedback.  It's very interesting.  In conclusion, the primary reason for the 60-90 days seems to be due to the disruption caused by shipping.

 

(e.g. assuming my humidor is the exact same environment, the sticks still need rest after being rested in our host's humidor due to disruption from shipping.  Or an even better example - our host ships the sticks around the world back to himself, the cigars still need to rest for an additional 60-90 days.)

... so we have come full circle! You know what we do, what will you do?

I think that while I tend to let cigars sit, it should be noted that I can afford to. Meaning, that I have cigars I have kept for many, many years and have options. I also know that if I smoke a cigar too soon, that it is wasted (MHO)... Yet, should you not get some of that experience yourself (as others have previously mentioned)?

A cigar wasted then depends on your experience. Without the experience, well, perhaps no cigar is wasted. In this case you can get some notion of experience from others, a wise choice, but you should verify (again as others have noted) that your tastes match that of others giving advice.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Riverstyx]

Thanks.  I have decided to totally ignore all of the expert advice from those that have been smoking and ordering cigars much longer than me that have scientific evidence to back their claims.

 

Just kidding.  I have been taking others advice on this, but I just wanted to understand the logic behind it a little better...well, that and there are many cigars that are begging to be smoked.  I'm going to do my best to resist.  However, if ordering a large box I will likely try one first before putting away because (a) I can't stand not trying it, and (b) I have had a few that were good ROTT.

 

Thanks again everyone.

-Styx

[backbone]

In retrospect, I have wasted every stick rott, compaired to how they are after 90-180 days.  Especially PSP/HQ that have a high oil content.

[JR Kipling]

1 hour ago, Riverstyx said:

Thanks.  I have decided to totally ignore all of the expert advice from those that have been smoking and ordering cigars much longer than me that have scientific evidence to back their claims.

 

Just kidding.  I have been taking others advice on this, but I just wanted to understand the logic behind it a little better...well, that and there are many cigars that are begging to be smoked.  I'm going to do my best to resist.  However, if ordering a large box I will likely try one first before putting away because (a) I can't stand not trying it, and (b) I have had a few that were good ROTT.

 

Thanks again everyone.

-Styx

I got back into cigars after an absence of over a decade. At first, I didnt have any fully rested cigars to smoke. I took the advice offered on another forum and bought a Missouri Meerschaum cob pipe, a pipe tool & pipe cleaners, and a pouch of Carter Hall tobacco. Cost me about $15US. While learning the pipe, I had something to smoke while my cigars were resting. I wasn't even tempted to try to smoke one of my cigars for 3 months. I enjoy cigars and pipes now. 

Even if you decide not to stick with the pipe, this strategy can greatly reduce the temptation factor. BTW - pipe tobacco costs a fraction of what cigars cost. If you don't get carried away buying lots of pipes, its a very economical way to also enjoy tobacco.

[kwilliams]

I got back into cigars after an absence of over a decade. At first, I didnt have any fully rested cigars to smoke. I took the advice offered on another forum and bought a Missouri Meerschaum cob pipe, a pipe tool & pipe cleaners, and a pouch of Carter Hall tobacco. Cost me about $15US. While learning the pipe, I had something to smoke while my cigars were resting. I wasn't even tempted to try to smoke one of my cigars for 3 months. I enjoy cigars and pipes now. 

Even if you decide not to stick with the pipe, this strategy can greatly reduce the temptation factor. BTW - pipe tobacco costs a fraction of what cigars cost. If you don't get carried away buying lots of pipes, its a very economical way to also enjoy tobacco.

Letting pipe tobacco age is also a good thing. Probably even better results than aging cigars.

[soutso]

On 16/08/2017 at 4:12 AM, PigFish said:

... a truism. Rates of change also depend on temperature and the flow of air around the cigar. Forced airflow (in the humidor or out of it) can have a dramatic affect.

A friend here has experimented with this to some extent and I have asked him to comment before. You can do a search for @soutso and find where he has discussed his experimentation within the rapid acclimatization topic.

Cheers! -Piggy

Hey Piggy!

Yes it is in my interest to get my cigars to my desired PMC (percentage moisture content) asap! I did describe what I do in a previous post but I cannot locate it easily from my phone. 

Hi @JamesKPolkEsq  I store my cigars in a custom built Piggy special! My set points are 60RH 70 Degrees. Having run my unit for two about and a half years now,  I have a feel for what constitutes a 60/70 acclimatised cigar. 

I mainly smoke Perla and Minuto sized sticks and I have noted that if I receive a box of say, Monte 5, if I place that box in my humidor it will take 6 months to a year to truly acclimatise to 60/70. I suspect that the difference in time is due to just how wet the cigars are upon arrival to my doorstep. 

If I desire faster acclimatisation I take the cigars out of the box and place them in an open tray inside the humidor. This essentially halves the time to 3-6 months. If anything this tells me that a simple dress box certainly does a job in shielding the cigars from environmental change. 

Just remember that I am not moving my cigars to an extreme environment. They are going from where they have been to a settled and consistent 60/70 space. I would guess that if I changed my humidor settings to say 50RH/80 Degrees my cigars would dry at a faster rate, though I would suspect I run the risk of damaging the wrapper if it dries too quickly. 

Larger cigars take longer to acclimatise. My Petit Coronas take about 6 to 9 months in an open tray, 12-18 months in their boxes.

I hope this is of interest to you.

cheers,

Nik

[earthson]

I admit: I suffer from a belief in "cigar trauma."  For example, when I take a few sticks from my aging stash (66-67% RH) and transfer them to a desktop humi (59-61% RH), I've found I'm wasting the cigar if I don't wait a few weeks.  They just taste off, typically.

[Hocky27]

Great thread. Certainly glad I opted to buy a box and samplers. It would suck to burn through some of the one off's before they had a chance to really shine and show their true colours.

[earthson]

On August 15, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Fugu said:

Good question that is to the point!

That dreaded statement doesn't get any truer the more often it's being (re)cited...

The statement is (still) plain nonsense, since the function describing such a time course is an e-function (i.e. an asymptotic process tending to infinity).... and not a linear one!

Translated for a simple grasp: Given deltas (gradients) and all conditions being constant, the process is starting quick and becoming slower with continuing equalization (i.e. delta 'parameter' becoming smaller). So, don't expect any verification of such a claim, as its mathematically impossible.

And - it is not all about humidity.... just sayin' 

 

So we're looking at a differential equation, perhaps akin to Newton's Law of Cooling, but with a couple extra variables for ambient temperature, air flow, etc. Sounds reasonable. Who's going to start collecting empirical data???

[PigFish]

50 minutes ago, earthson said:

 

So we're looking at a differential equation, perhaps akin to Newton's Law of Cooling, but with a couple extra variables for ambient temperature, air flow, etc. Sounds reasonable. Who's going to start collecting empirical data???

This is Fick's Law but I could be wrong (long time since I studied it). It took me hours yesterday trying to remember how to represent a straight line gradient in a formula for a controller, until I broke down and looked it up. You don't use this stuff you lose it... -LOL I am sure most 8th graders cold have worked my problem out in less than 10 minutes.

Ahhh, to have total recall and what 40 years will do to a simple math problem!!!

While the data is not quantified, I use my friend @soutso for this (see above) because the he smokes a lot, and I know his humidor works! Like me, he as a pretty keen taste for water content. Unlike me, he must move his choices in daily smoking though a 'production line' process to bring them the fastest way he can (while inside his humidor that is controlled) to a point of preferred smoking. This is what one must do to smoke the number of cigars he smokes.

As my friend @Fugu has pointed out, this is problem like taking the distance between you and the wall and cutting it in half... It become asymptotic, and theoretically you never get to the wall. Functionally you will get to your smoking point, but that depends some on the your taste and resolution of taste.

I just throw time at it because I don't really care if I wait. @soutso's production line approach keeps him in acclimatized current cigars. While his data is anecdotal, it is empirical to his situation and level of control and should be noted. He works at forced acclimatization that is not abusive to his cigars. If one were to change temperature and rH that are outside a range of storage one could move them faster, but you would potentially be subject to fines.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, earthson said:

So we're looking at a differential equation, perhaps akin to Newton's Law of Cooling, but with a couple extra variables for ambient temperature, air flow, etc. Sounds reasonable. Who's going to start collecting empirical data???

Exponential decay function (as holds e.g. for temp. equilibration, capacitor charging or discharging etc.), processes that are well known. Mathematically rather simple to approximate [we don't have to bother with Fick here, Piggy, since in a humidor (active humidification) we don't deal with plain diffusion processes, as we introduce turbulent mixing (ideally... )]. Actual "general" time constants were to be easily calculated were it not for the different effects of the packaging. That is the main determining parameter here. While they play a role fo course, no need to look any further than that and make it more complicated than it actually is by bothering with things such as airflow, tobacco types, questions of uniformity etc.. A "general" statement will always "depend"...

However, the core message I simply wanted to make here, is that a fix linear predication (per week, per month etc.) to a non-linear function [f(time)], is nuts already, even when leaving aside all the other varying influencing factors of which you (and Piggy further above) are mentioning a few. No such general rule of thumb (as the empirical results of @soutso do also show).

[Fugu]

It's funny, being the strong proponent of aging in Cuban cigars that I am, I rarely have an issue smoking a cigar ROTT, following some minor preparation (same holding for tubos). Sure, talking about young sticks, it will never show its full potential at that point, but I can usually fairly well enjoy it. There is a difference of course in smoking fresh production ROTT or one with some age on it, and we have to differentiate here between the two, i.e. the effects of shipping and effects of cigar freshness/youth. As very hygroscopic tobaccos tend to show burn problems when young, they will profit from more extended aging anyway (but that's not so much related to ROTT or non-ROTT). But still.... I wouldn't know how and on what I'd base my buying decisions had I not the chance to sample the quality of certain production immediately.

[CanuckSARTech]

Me personally, I don't like that vendor's explanation of what "we [they] call the sick period", as there use is inconsistent with the normally looked upon definition of a "sick period" as described in the Encyclopaedia.  I think that definition / explanation of a sick period is more consistent with that which the greater cigar community thinks of it as.

However, I've heard of it (on here and other places), and said myself, that one could call it "shipping shock", "transit funk", etc.

I think the ROTT aspect is just for someone that wants something fresh.  Something that they can't wait for, due to being a new purchase.  And/or, something that's perhaps even got a box code / manufacture date in Cuba of within the past 3 to 6 months.  So, kind of a "factory freshie".

However, most discussions in the past have been that you really need to let them rest from their "shipping shock".  Discussions in the past have been that if you don't have one in the first few days to a week or so after you've received them, lay them down and leave them for at least 30 days at a bare minimum.  The 1-3 month explanation from Rob has been a consistent answer of many here for many years now.

For the OP, if you try one "rott", right within a day or two of receiving it, use that as your baseline.  Then put them away in your humidor, and don't touch or disturb them.  Set a calendar reminder on your phone / Outlook.  Have another one at 3 months in, exactly, and then another at 6 months, and another at the 1 year anniversary date.  That way, it's fairly consistent across the board.  Hell, if you want to ensure any error rates in the cigars themselves, smoke two or three of them (within a few days of each other at the very latest), during these calendar date points.  Following this method, you should then be able to take everyone's advice, and make your own final conclusions based on your discoveries of what appealed best to your palate.

 

 

[Fugu]

4 minutes ago, CanuckSARTech said:

I think the ROTT aspect is just for someone that wants something fresh.  Something that they can't wait for, due to being a new purchase.  And/or, something that's perhaps even got a box code / manufacture date in Cuba of within the past 3 to 6 months.  So, kind of a "factory freshie"

Well that seems to call for a definition of ROTT then.  "...of the truck" would imply for me some kind of transportation, even if meant figuratively. I wouldn't consider a stick bought at my home B&M to be ROTT.... . Or is it perhaps, if it's a freshie? Would aged stock, shipped by Rob qualify for ROTT then?

[PigFish]

... since we are all picking things apart here.

I simply don't think that one cigar sample leads to any conclusive data about the remainder of cigars...! So I don't really follow the 'cigar baseline' theory.

My opinion does not discount that of others. That was not the intent anyway, I just thought I would toss it out.

One thing about cigars acquired from others. They are not acclimatized to your taste IN MOST CASES. Therefore an acclimatization period is potential reward for zero risk. It is a matter of playing odds from my perspective. The 'odds are' with no certainty implied, that you will get a better smoking experience when you have a desired taste achieved by proper storage, and you allow your cigars to progress to it.

Cheers! -Piggy

[CanuckSARTech]

9 minutes ago, Fugu said:

Well that seems to call for a definition of ROTT then.  "...of the truck" would imply for me some kind of transportation, even if meant figuratively. I wouldn't consider a stick bought at my home B&M to be ROTT.... . Or is it perhaps, if it's a freshie? Would aged stock, shipped by Rob qualify for ROTT then?

No, sorry.  My bad.  I did mean "right off the truck" still.  Same sense.

But what I meant is that someone who wants "to try" / enjoy cigars ROTT (as soon as shipment received) is similar to those liking factory / custom freshies.  That the ROTT aspect is the closest that one can get to a "factory freshie" without going to an actual factory in Cuba.

Sorry, bad explanation perhaps on my end.

I hope the rest of it is concise and clear enough though.