Sancho Panza Ducales???

[mk05]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks

[99call]

23 minutes ago, NSXCIGAR said:

This is quite interesting, but my position would be that these are not an official Cubatabaco release and are therefore not Habanos. It would be more in line with a custom roll commissioned by Tabacalera, sanctioned by Cubatabaco with special permission to use the SP marca. A bit complicated, but that's as accurately as I can classify them.

Similar to the many jars that are sold by LCDHs around the world that are not official HSA releases (Siglo VI, Edmundos) outside of the limited W. Europe 2010 releases. These original 2010 jars have been duplicated by the distributors and LCDHs. Cohiba, Behike and Partagas jars are also readily available at LCDHs in Cuba despite these not being official HSA-released jars. 

Surely, the point would be less. Are they an official "habanos" cigar? and more, Are they made of fine cuban tobacco?. I would agree that they are not an official release as it were. but if it's good quality cuban tobacco from the 1980's, I would argue it doesn't really take any gloss off their collectability.  

I don't think they are purporting to be anything they are not.  

Personally I don't like the white boxes, white always makes me think of hospitals for some reason

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, 99call said:

Surely, the point would be less. Are they an official "habanos" cigar? and more, Are they made of fine cuban tobacco?. I would agree that they are not an official release as it were. but if it's good quality cuban tobacco from the 1980's, I would argue it doesn't really take any gloss off their collectability.  

I don't think they are purporting to be anything they are not.  

Personally I don't like the white boxes, white always makes me think of hospitals for some reason

Fair enough. The collectability would rest on the verification of the story and how easily what is stated can be ascertained. An official statement from Tabacalera or Cubatabaco or some record of these would be sufficient for me to consider these as collectable as any official issue. Similarly, most of the items acquired at the Habanos and Partagas festivals aren't official HSA releases but come with supporting documentation and records or first hand accounts and photos, and are therefore considered under the umbrella of official HSA release or at least sanctioned by HSA which is good enough.

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, 99call said:

"These cigars have been prepared with leaves of tobacco with the most accredited fields of cuba"

I think this what this says, maybe someone has better Spanish?

Thanks for this, good info! At least it is clear now, that it's Cuban tobacco contained (yep, that's what it sais - poor res of the pic, but I read: Estos cigarros han sido elaborados artesanalmente con hojas de tabacos de las más acreditadas vegas de Cuba).

Still, this is not a Cuban product, nor a Cuban cigar, would it contain some or even 100% Cuban leaf (there are and have been other non-Cuban brands using Cuban leaf). It's a Spanish cigar made from Cuban tobacco. So it's pretty clear why this isn't being found in the Cubatabaco books. Not in any closer relation with the Cuban SP, bar the name and the "colaboración". There's a reason why they were using a completely different branding design for this release.

The info recited on halfweel (which I eventually looked up now)  -  "Later after this 'experiment' the brand was then incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos and sold worldwide." is plain nonsense. I reckon they guy from Altadis they were corresponding with actually had no real clue (and he is repeatedly confusing Habanos SA and Cubatabaco...).

Would be truly interesting to know more about the background of this Spanish release. Why would they have done it, instead of simply getting the cigars made in Cuba and shipping the finished product over to Tenerife? Taxation? Labour cost had certainly been higher in Spain at that time. And SP (the original) had been very well represented in the Spanish market already anyway back then.

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

but my position would be that these are not an official Cubatabaco release and are therefore not Habanos.

Yes, I concur, these are very clearly not Habanos. Even not to be compared with the special releases today by certain vendors, which you mention, since those are still true Habanos, made in Cuba.

This is not saying anything about 'collectibility' of course (about which I couldn't care less, way more interested in the history behind it).

[NSXCIGAR]

2 hours ago, Fugu said:

Still, this is not a Cuban product, nor a Cuban cigar,

On 1/6/2018 at 6:13 PM, Fugu said:

Yes, the labeling meaning "Made in Spain under licence of..."

I missed this. So Cuban tobacco but not rolled in Cuba...to me, this would fall much more under the category of a custom distributed by Tabacalera with permission to use the SP marca further distancing it from Cubatabaco. I really don't know how much collectability these would have in that case. It would be severely limited IMO. This seems much more to lean towards a distributor production than anything to do with Cubatabaco.

That said, if they're good, send them all to me!

[99call]

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I missed this. So Cuban tobacco but not rolled in Cuba...to me, this would fall much more under the category of a custom distributed by Tabacalera with permission to use the SP marca further distancing it from Cubatabaco. I really don't know how much collectability these would have in that case. It would be severely limited IMO. This seems much more to lean towards a distributor production than anything to do with Cubatabaco.

That said, if they're good, send them all to me!

 

11 hours ago, Fugu said:

Yes, I concur, these are very clearly not Habanos. Even not to be compared with the special releases today by certain vendors, which you mention, since those are still true Habanos, made in Cuba.

This is not saying anything about 'collectibility' of course (about which I couldn't care less, way more interested in the history behind it).

Are we in danger of missing the point here? 

I completely understand the details you guys are focusing on, and they are all very importantt, but are we in danger of just getting lost in stamps and legislation?

By following this line of thinking, it would suggest a box of Spanish tobacco rolled in Cuba would be more valuable, and ??? that might actually be true. The world is a strange place. 

My thoughts on this are very simple. The main reason for the value in cuban cigars, is the tobacco. Obviously the skill, the soil, the climate, the people, the seed, the maturation techniques have created that value. but if you had all of those things, then that product was sailed to Spain and rolled, I couldn't understand the mindset whereby someone would simply say. "these are not cuban cigars?"

If you take Scottish whisky, fly it to Tennessee, and give it a final two year cask in a bourbon barrel.  Is this no longer Scottish Whisky?

In conclusion would the most relevant bracket of these cigars be "havana clear"?

PS, I completely agree that Halfwheel's comment  “Later after this ‘experiment,’ the brand was then incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos and sold worldwide.”     is just utter nonsense

[Fugu]

4 hours ago, 99call said:

My thoughts on this are very simple. The main reason for the value in cuban cigars, is the tobacco. Obviously the skill, the soil, the climate, the people, the seed, the maturation techniques have created that value. but if you had all of those things, then that product was sailed to Spain and rolled, I couldn't understand the mindset whereby someone would simply say. "these are not cuban cigars?"

It may sound confusing, indeed, but it's not a question of what we think. It's a matter of a specific definition what a habano is. There's even (historic) definitions by some according to which yet not all Cuban cigars made in Cuba from Cuban tobacco would qualify as a habano. Today, there is existing a clear - legal - definition since the "Habano" meanwhile is a protected trademark (which will, however, strictly not be applicable to the 80s production we are dealing with here). I shall be able to look it up more detailed later today when I find the time. The main (minimum) and unquestioned criteria, however, being made in Cuba from Cuban tobacco.

In this case here, - the Spanish SP - this is neither a habano nor is it even a Cuban cigar. As I said above, it's a Spanish cigar made from Cuban tobacco.

4 hours ago, 99call said:

If you take Scottish whisky, fly it to Tennessee, and give it a final two year cask in a bourbon barrel.  Is this no longer Scottish Whisky?

No, indeed, it isn't.

Take Polish potatoes, carry them to Belgium for making fries - you got Belgian fries (or was it chips?... ).
Take Indian steel, carry over to USA to make hardware tubing - got US hardware.
Take a Danish bred and fed pig, carry across the borders to Spain to make Serrano ham - voilà, will be labelled as original Spanish Jamón Serrano. (By the way, as quite different to the protected-origin Iberico or Parma hams, where not only the processing has to be done but also the special pig breeds used for production need to be raised in specific zones in the motherland - so in the reverse, quite quite like with the habano, you can't make Jamón Iberico outside of Spain, even should you get hold of the right pork and carry out the exact same processing)....

I think you are getting the gist.

This all is not saying anything about the actual quality (and value) of said cigar here. It may be an excellent stick, irrespective of its being a 'habano' or not.

[99call]

28 minutes ago, Fugu said:

No, indeed, it isn't.

Take Polish potatoes, carry them to Belgium for making fries - you got Belgian fries (or was it chips?... ).
Take Indian steel, carry over to USA to make hardware tubing - got US hardware.
Take a Danish bred and fed pig, carry across the borders to Spain to make Serrano ham - voila, will be labelled as original Spanish Jamón Serrano (by the way, as quite different to the protected-origin Iberico or Parma hams, where not only the processing has to be done but also the special pig breeds used for production need to be raised in specific zones in the motherland - so in the reverse, quite quite like with the habano, you can't make Jamón Iberico outside of Spain, even should you get hold of the right pork and carry out the exact same processing)....

I think you are getting the gist.

This all is not saying anything about the actual quality (and value) of said cigar here. It may be an excellent stick, irrespective of its being a 'habano' or not.

I think this is more your opinion, than fact.

I would argue that when you have an artisanal product that merely receives it's final 'processing' in a different country, that doesn't change its origin or integrity. 

To use your pig analogy. To be more accurate with what we're talking about, I would say it would be like a Spanish pig bred in Spain, killed in Spain, cured in Spain, hung in Spain, Packed in Spain. Flown to Germany to be sliced.  If you think that is German ham, then well, lets just agree to disagree.

Ultimately in no way am I saying that this is a "habano" cigar, What I am saying (similar to your final line) in terms of the value of that box, it contains (so they say) fine cuban tobacco. Without all the things that fine cuban tobacco 'is', the term "habano" would mean nothing.

Ultimately we don't smoke stamps on boxes, is all I'm really saying

 

 

[Fugu]

19 minutes ago, 99call said:

think this is more your opinion, than fact.

As I said, this is not opinion nor what you or I believe is true. It's an unquestioned definition. There is really no room for debate here (neither as for habanos nor as regards the ham...). Will get back to you on that later with details.

19 minutes ago, 99call said:

What I am saying (similar to your final line) in terms of the value of that box, it contains (so they say) fine cuban tobacco. Without all the things that fine cuban tobacco 'is' the term "habano" would mean nothing.

You are obviously not getting (or not wanting to get) the point here: I am not discussing the smoking qualities or collector's value of said product, I am (as NSX is as well) trying to sort out its status with regard to the Cuban cigar realm. This is more an academic than a smoker's approach.

[99call]

Just now, Fugu said:

You are obvioulsy not getting (or not wanting to get) the point here: 

I could say the same of you. Essentially I think we're singing of the same hymn sheet. I have agreed that these are not 'habanos' cigars on numerous occasions.

What I had moved onto was more of a conceptual point, that consumers can box themselves into valuing things differently based on inflexible rules or labels, that can sometimes lead us to a silly place.  

 

 

[Puros Y Vino]

It's status is currently "dead".    It's safe to say it is not an official Cubatabaco / Habanos release.  Even MRN makes no mention of it in his 1st Edition. Either he was not aware (doubtful?) or didn't believe it warranted mentioning.  Which I find odd.  I'd call these the original Regional Edition.  All Cuban tobacco, but actually made in the region it sells in.    I guess it comes down to what we think a Cuban puro is. It seems most of us, myself included, would agree that a Cuban puro need not only contain 100% Cuban tobacco, but it should be rolled on the island itself.  When they're not rolled in a Cuban factory or farm. We already have the designation known as "Clear Havana".  For some reason, the Spanish had some pull with Cubatabaco and were able to get them to send raw leaf.  Given that Spain was probably the #1 importer of Cuban cigars at the time, they could wring out a special deal with Cuba.

My 2c

[99call]

5 minutes ago, bundwallah said:

 We already have the designation known as "Clear Havana". 

This

[mk05]

4 hours ago, bundwallah said:

MRN makes no mention of it in his 1st Edition...he was not aware (doubtful?)...When they're not rolled in a Cuban factory or farm. We already have the designation known as "Clear Havana"

He doesn't have everything - it is an impossible task to ask. Clear Havana, as a term, applies to pre-embargo Cubans sent to specifically the United States, because it had to clear customs.

[Puros Y Vino]

Just now, mk05 said:

He doesn't have everything - it is an impossible task to ask. Clear Havana, as a term, applies to pre-embargo Cubans sent to specifically the United States, because it had to clear customs.

Oh, I agree that he couldn't include everything. As for "Clear Havana" I'm aware of what it denotes. But it's the only thing that fits this release in terms of positioning.  As it was made for the Spanish market.  "Claro Havana" then? 

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, 99call said:

I have agreed that these are not 'habanos' cigars on numerous occasions.

What I had moved onto was more of a conceptual point, that consumers can box themselves into valuing things differently based on inflexible rules or labels, that can sometimes lead us to a silly place.

Sorry, we may have been on cross-purposes then, as it seems. Some of us appear to be primarily interested in value, whereas my personal interest first and foremost being the story behind and the historic context of things (my statements in this thread should at no point be read as reasoning for a valuation, monetary or related to enjoyment of smoking, whatsoever). So that's fine then, I had the impressiom we were of differing positions in that respect. Spares us further excursions into historic definitions of the havanna / habano...

[NSXCIGAR]

12 hours ago, 99call said:

What I had moved onto was more of a conceptual point, that consumers can box themselves into valuing things differently based on inflexible rules or labels, that can sometimes lead us to a silly place. 

This is certainly true, and I suppose someone could value these very highly. My point was simply that a product such as this would have a hard time being valued highly or considered exceptionally collectable based on its stated provenance. Quite frankly I doubt anyone in the rare and vintage cigar world would value a cigar rolled in Spain with Cuban tobacco and stuffed into weird Sancho Panza-marked boxes simply because someone at a medium level of Cubatabaco allowed them to do it. Now, there may be some more interesting history behind these cigars. For example, if these were specifically commissioned by the King of Spain and there's documented permission granted from someone well known at Cubatabaco at the time or Fidel himself, that would change things. 

The bottom line is that this is a Tabacalera product, and I know of no history of Tabacalera products or any distributor products being collectable in any way. Something could be I suppose, but the nature of cigar collectability--specifically CC collectability--means that the closer the link to Castro or Tabacuba or a head of state or famous person there is the more valuable it ostensibly would be. 

[99call]

8 hours ago, Fugu said:

Sorry, we may have been on cross-purposes then, as it seems. Some of us appear to be primarily interested in value, whereas my personal interest first and foremost being the story behind and the historic context of things (my statements in this thread should at no point be read as reasoning for a valuation, monetary or related to enjoyment of smoking, whatsoever). So that's fine then, I had the impressiom we were of differing positions in that respect. Spares us further excursions into historic definitions of the havanna / habano...

No worries. It's brilliant that the passion and history of cigars can (seemingly) throw up such a rich and never ending tapestry of stories. 

I, like yourself, find the history of any given item fascinating. I work with artefacts for a living, and I find one of the most interesting things can be value. The reason I say that is, it's often where the history and heritage of an item can lie, i.e someone buys something at auction for three times it's perceived market value, (and the auction room is stunned). Then later you get the opportunity to speak to the buyer, and you find out that, that Japanese sword they had bought was one of the very few that was given permission to be signed on the tang by an apprentice , due to the quality they had achieved. 

Sadly these days, value can also just be some rich Oligarch buying so much Andy Warhols, that they can effectively control the price and fudge the art market. AKA Talisman Flippers. 

[99call]

5 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Quite frankly I doubt anyone in the rare and vintage cigar world would value a cigar rolled in Spain with Cuban tobacco and stuffed into weird Sancho Panza-marked boxes simply because someone at a medium level of Cubatabaco allowed them to do it. 

I agree with lots of what you've said about the possible value of the this box, but your quoted sentence above itself is a story, a point of oddity/interest. I think it obviously doesn't interest you, which is fine, but it does have a story.

I think at auction a box of these would reach £250 maybe £300 at a push. Nowhere near the £800 suggested by Halfwheel. Even if you just added the these three simple factors together (1980s+interesting story+cuban tobacco) I think you would have a commodity someone would be willing to pay for.  I wouldn't buy them at that price, and a very much doubt you would, but hey £260 is currently about 2 Cohiba Talisman, a cigar that is reported to be as enjoyable as sucking on King Kong's bum scratching finger, explain that one? Ha

 

[NSXCIGAR]

11 hours ago, 99call said:

I agree with lots of what you've said about the possible value of the this box, but your quoted sentence above itself is a story, a point of oddity/interest. I think it obviously doesn't interest you, which is fine, but it does have a story.

Well, by story I meant provenance. A good story with supporting documentation or first-hand accounts. IMO, this really isn't a good story. As I suggested the story gets better if there's a more direct link to Cubatabaco, a well-known famous person, head of state or Fidel Castro, for example. But from what I know about the CC world, this story is pretty lame. 

In a strange twist, the more we talk about it and the more people are interested in it, the more value it gains. Obviously the more it's talked about and discussed naturally the more mystery and intrigue there is. We are, in a sense, creating more value for these right now oddly enough.

I would agree that these certainly have some value, but I'd put it at a custom roll with Cuban tobacco rolled in Spain by Tabacalera using a borrowed Cuban marca. Knowing that and never having smoked one of these I wouldn't pay much. If I had smoked one and they were good I'd probably pay $10-15/stick as they are a mildly interesting item IMO. 

Just a bit confused about this supposed statement taken from Halfwheel--perhaps someone can explain this? The brand incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos? Sancho Panza? This is one of the oldest continually produced brands...?

“Regarding the brand Sancho Panza: at that time (early eighties) there was no joint venture with Habanos going on, therefore this was a special project friendly agreed between Habanos and Tabacalera Spain,” said Antonio Calabria of Altadis S.A., in an email to halfwheel. “Later after this ‘experiment,’ the brand was then incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos and sold worldwide.”

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Just a bit confused about this supposed statement taken from Halfwheel--perhaps someone can explain this? The brand incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos? Sancho Panza? This is one of the oldest continually produced brands...?

Yup:

On 16.1.2018 at 1:26 AM, Fugu said:

The info recited on halfweel (which I eventually looked up now)  -  "Later after this 'experiment' the brand was then incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos and sold worldwide." is plain nonsense. I reckon they guy from Altadis they were corresponding with actually had no real clue (and he is repeatedly confusing Habanos SA and Cubatabaco...).

 

[NSXCIGAR]

4 minutes ago, Fugu said:

The info recited on halfweel (which I eventually looked up now)  -  "Later after this 'experiment' the brand was then incorporated in the standard portfolio of Habanos and sold worldwide." is plain nonsense. I reckon they guy from Altadis they were corresponding with actually had no real clue (and he is repeatedly confusing Habanos SA and Cubatabaco...).

And if this guy is the only link for these cigars to Cubatabaco it's frankly a pretty weak link. Someone like Adriano Martinez would carry much more weight. Some guy working on the Altadis side--not even HSA--that uses the term "Habanos" to describe CCs in the early 80s doesn't give me much confidence in the provenance. Without a paper trail or credible verification from someone well known in Cubatabaco or even HSA these cigars' collectable value in the realm of rare & vintage CCs is just severely limited. 

[Fugu]

Seeing it similar. But, perhaps to his defence, it also seems possible that some details may have got lost in translation between him and halfweel. I mean, starting out with "city of Tenerife", anyone? This surely wouldn't come from a Spaniard. It's a pretty poorly researched and presented bit, apart from the tasting part perhaps.

[99call]

1 hour ago, NSXCIGAR said:

And if this guy is the only link for these cigars to Cubatabaco it's frankly a pretty weak link.

Cubatabaco's involvement is specified and written on the boxes,  Surely this would create a massive stink if this were bogus/ grounds to take someone to court?

[NSXCIGAR]

8 minutes ago, 99call said:

Cubatabaco's involvement is specified and written on the boxes,  Surely this would create a massive stink if this were bogus/ grounds to take someone to court?

Not necessarily. I'm sure it is legitimate, but the permission could have been granted by someone who didn't even have authority to give it. Who knows--this was the early 80s. I doubt legal action would have been pursued for a such a limited release at that time. This just speaks further to the lack of provenance. Something in writing from Cubatabaco or someone well known from Tabacalera or Cubatabaco going on record about this would go far in establishing provenance. Even an article or contemporary account referencing it would help. There doesn't seem to be anything third-party that sheds any light on these. 

Again, not that this doesn't have value, but my position is that in the vintage and rare cigar world the closer and more solid the link to Cubatabco the more highly valued by more people. Right now, there are only two links--the box statement that permission to use the SP marca was given and a representative of Altadis' email that contains some odd statements. Something, but just not a whole lot to go on IMO.