The last LE fail?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

if there is a second band it´s never a fail.  

It probably will because I'm willing to bet he has a Diplomaticos No.1, Rafael Gonzalez Lonsdale or Ramon Allones Petit Corona lying around somewhere...

... Guilty on all counts Sir! -Piggy

Fails in terms of marketing as Rob sais, i.e. failure in selling out fairly soon, in this decade: None. They all sold sooner or later. There are certainly two all-time losers springing to mind immediately if going back a bit further: One of them having been the Trini Ingenios of 2007. Had been still available at first market sources until just very recently (perhaps still around?). I guess that must have been the very release leading HSA to conclude never ever to come out with a slender cigar for an EL again.... The other one, almost with a very similar near one-decade life on retailer's shelves has been the Hoyo Regalos (also 2007), but for a reason, as wrappers were crap.

Then, there were those odd ones that re-appeared in quantity at upped pricing to some markets after a brief disappearance. Obviously due to stock that had been kept on hold (reasons?...:wink2:) by some importers. Such as the Boli Petit Beli (2009), a cigar that was actually hit and miss and therefore wasn't moving quick, or the Cuaba of 2008. Or, coming closer into this decade as per Robs request, the HdM Short Hoyo Piramides (2011). The Party C3 (2012) also wasn't highly popular as to my observation (bought my last box from regular retail last year - nice cigar).

In comparison to those, the Romeo de Luxe, repeatedly mentioned here (by the way, a beautiful smoke that's coming around nicely indeed) or the HdM Grand Epi (2013), though certainly not the quickest sellers, still have been selling out fairly soon (most of what you get to see now online is second market pricing). And, just a reminder folks - briefly thinking back to the now so highly sought-after Cohiba 1966: that stick also hadn't moved very fast. Entering shops end of 2011 and still been available online from first-market retail (even longer at some B&Ms) well into 2014. So, easily available for a good three years (perhaps longer with some research) if I am not mistaken.

We seem to quickly forget that there hadn't been that much of a hype around ELs - at even far less depressing pricing - a good ten years back, like we see it today during the last few years.

Sure, ELs are a nice gimmick, I am buying them at times and still try the odd single of all (most) of them. But these days, a large fraction of smokers (collectors?) appears to think they are getting extra quality with those releases... never been the case! From a smoker's - not a collector's - perspective a price surcharge on regular pricing for an(y) EL in my eyes is NOT in any way justified. Quite the contrary..., e.g. when looking at the many leathery thick Talismáns sporting sloppily applied caps, with a resemblance of a cheap Quesada Oktoberfest.... The current Punch Regios delP - not much short of that. With such releases, you literally get to feel the shortages in good wrapper leaf.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont remember a single EL from 2011-2013 soId have to say all of those....Im pretty solid on the other years, although this years punch for the price......gthoh....not gonna happen

There were definitely some good ones those years. Two of the best of any EL are the 2011 Cohiba 1966 and the 2012 Monty 520. Outstanding then and even better now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/28/2018 at 2:40 AM, canadianbeaver said:

My favorite cigars these days are the RA LE 2015 and I also love those Trinidad Robusto T’s.

I would have to say that although they are a lovey smoke, the way the market swang the price of either Opus X or Behike that are not 2010 is truly F from a purchase point of view.

CB

*yup. Swang.B)

As a Trini lover I say the Robusto T and the Short Robusto T RE are completely different cigars. Are you referring to the former or latter?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, PigFish said:

Considering I have bought 2 boxes of them since 2004, and those were pretty lousy too, the whole damn program is a failure from my perspective. Like @NSXCIGAR I have no way of knowing about the sales except that they still make the crap and that must mean that crap sells!!!

Sorry, no help, prejudice (based on poor experience) has jaded me on these products. When I want a connoisseur cigar, I am told to eat cake!

-Piggy

I agree with this. The cost the LE/RE programme has had and continues to have on decent regular production cigars, imo makes them all complete failures in terms of quality cigars, though for making money clearly they're all winners. The emphasis has switched, They were a company that specialised in making cigars and are now a company that specialises in making money by way of cigars.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Blakes said:

imo makes them all complete failures in terms of quality cigars

I am with you in the spirit of this but to remind everyone this thread is strictly about sales flops. 

Having smoked ELs from 2000 onwards and having had one almost every year I can tell you that I am firmly in the camp that thinks that there's nothing inherently superior in any special production cigar--ELs included. The SPs that are great are case-by-case, isolated cigars. In general, the average EL is probably going to be the same or worse than the average regular production cigar. 

We must also remember that EL (and ER) pricing was very reasonable until about 5 years ago. I believe that pricing has increased disproportionately in terms of how much better the ELs usually are, and I will say that I think the program has stepped up its quality in the last 5-7 years. But they have become poor values indeed in general.

I don't think the ERs have increased in quality overall in the last 10 years. Some are very good and some are not good at all. Most if not all ELs are at least on par with regular production these days. And like the ELs, pricing has gone way out of whack on them. $180 for the RG 88 is just putrid. 

2 hours ago, Habana Mike said:

the Robusto T and the Short Robusto T RE are completely different cigars.

I'll say. He surely is referring to the Short RTs. The RTs were great. Still have 5...and it will be a while before they're gone. 

 

5 hours ago, Fugu said:

One of them having been the Trini Ingenios of 2007. Had been still available at first market sources until just very recently (perhaps still around?).

Yes, this one is possibly the worst EL fail of all time. They are very available for between $375-425 at many vendors right now. And from what I hear, they have actually blossomed into good cigars as of a couple years ago. How good, I don't know though. I believe @Smallclub had sampled one not long ago and had positive feedback but I could be mistaken. They were not well received at all upon release and remained so until just recently. I don't think the word is fully out on these yet but should one spend that kind of money on those or on a box of 24 Fundys instead? $25/stick isn't chump change. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Sudzdaddy said:

Dang Ray, hope your day gets better...  ;)

It probably will because I'm willing to bet he has a Diplomaticos No.1, Rafael Gonzalez Lonsdale or Ramon Allones Petit Corona lying around somewhere... :lol:

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

 I believe @Smallclub had sampled one not long ago and had positive feedback but I could be mistaken. They were not well received at all upon release and remained so until just recently. 

I bought a box in 2010, as they were on sale – obviously a swiss vendor needed to move them.

The cigars were about 3 years old (AGU OCT 07) and were uninspiring, big disapointment. Then suddenly in 2013 these cigars became rich, complex, etc. I finished the box mid 2014 and wished I had another!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

I'll say. He surely is referring to the Short RTs. The RTs were great. Still have 5...and it will be a while before they're gone.

After all the quotes back and forth, HE??:lol:

I was not specific, but we have wonderful boxes of the RT's. 2010. Love them.

As for more fails, which is more relevant, pretty much anything RyJ.

CB  

5abe591845981_Trinidad1.jpg.84efded17e8786562a29b17b6ceabd92.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't really understand the fuss over LE/RE, but people love collectables and rares and if you love 'em more power to you!

I feel like I'd rather spend my time and money on regular production - more cost effective and can hopefully get my grubby hands on another box down the road. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Biggest flops sales-wise have to be the Hoyo Piramides and the RyJ deLuxe. Had one of each as extras in trades and did not care for them at all.

I think the whole EL thing is kind of silly. Get rid of the B-grade wrapper and I'll take another look at them. I got a box of RACA just because I'm such a fan of the reg production line, but am not happy with the purchase. Nothing to justify double the price of RASS.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, crking3 said:


Holy **** man what are u even saying ...........


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, @NSXCIGARwhat's with all the complete sentences and multisyllabic words assembled to form coherent thought?  It's 2018, man.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, JohnS said:

It probably will because I'm willing to bet he has a Diplomaticos No.1, Rafael Gonzalez Lonsdale or Ramon Allones Petit Corona lying around somewhere... :lol:

... Guilty on all counts Sir!

-Piggy

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, earthson said:

Get rid of the B-grade wrapper and I'll take another look at them

Problem is - the program's prime aim is to get rid of the grade-B wrappers. :whistle:

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Fugu said:

Problem is - the program's prime aim is to get rid of the grade-B wrappers. :whistle:

And recently at higher prices to boot. At least in the early days they had the humility to charge a reasonable price for knowingly inferior grade wrappers. They are laughing all the way to the bank when they continually raised prices only to see sales climb in the face of it. I think the 2001 Cohiba Piramides was$11/stick and 03 Cohiba DC was $21/stick on release. Now we have the Talisman at $60+. I'm no economist but I missed the report of 300-500% inflation since 2003. And if you ask me the wrappers could be the same on both cigars. 

6 hours ago, foursite12 said:

Yeah, @NSXCIGARwhat's with all the complete sentences and multisyllabic words assembled to form coherent thought?  It's 2018, man.

Sorry about that. Won't happen again guys.

That's not true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎27‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 8:16 PM, NSXCIGAR said:

This is of course contrasted to any EL 2014 and onward which is impossible to find at retailers gathering dust with one odd exception which is the RACA.

Could the appearance of easily assessable auction groups such as on Facebook around this time be playing some part in this?

Rather than waiting to get a idea of the release, from a smoking perspective before buying and especially buying in bulk. People now see these releases as an investment first and buy as much as they can... and if they turn out to be good cigars that's a bonus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I used to love trying the LE's to find ones I like, but I've definitely gotten disillusioned and turned off by the skyrocketing prices and terrible wrappers, so I barely bother anymore. Stick with what @PigFish says - a decently aged corona beats the crap out of just about all LE's I've ever tasted.

I agree with most on here - biggest LE fails I've seen:

HDM Regalos '07 - Crap Wrappers, Crap Taste.
Trini Ingenios '07 - I don't care what @CanuckSARTech says, these were an epic fail.
Cuaba Piramides '08 - Languished for years, was actually a decent cigar but way stronger than the rest of the line. Confused people.
Partagas SD5 '08 - I think this is the first of the "Let's shorten a good cigar and charge more for it!" brigade.  For that reason alone, a despicable cigar.
Trinidad Short Robusto T "10 - :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:I still remember the hundreds on boxes on the shelf in Charles Grech tobacconist in Malta. I bet they are still there, years later :rotfl::rotfl:
HdM Short Piramides '11 - Lame taste (HdM suffers terribly from darker wrappers IMHO), lame release.
HdM Grand Epicure '13 - HSA STOP MAKING HdM LE's - they are never good!

My $0.02.  I stick with RE's when I want a double bander for the most part now (at least the wrapper has the same chance at quality as a regular cigar), but even that market is drying up for me based on the skyrocketing price - @NSXCIGAR is bang on about the RG88s.  Fonzie on his surfboard is about to jump for RE's if they keep going this way,....

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, ChanceSchmerr said:

HdM Short Piramides '11 - Lame taste (HdM suffers terribly from darker wrappers IMHO), lame release.

I have to disagree: the Hoyo Pirámide from 2003 had maduro wrappers, and it's still seen as one of the best EL ever by many aficions

As for the 2011 Short Piramide, I must have been lucky as the box that I purchased on release was good (not great but solid).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Smallclub said:

I have to disagree: the Hoyo Pirámide from 2003 had maduro wrappers, and it's still seen as one of the best EL ever by many aficions

As for the 2011 Short Piramide, I must have been lucky as the box that I purchased on release was good (not great but solid).

And I have to ad-d(-mit) I am guilty of quite enjoying the subtle complexity of the Grand Epi, although not my preferred format and a rather quick burner...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Blakes said:

Could the appearance of easily assessable auction groups such as on Facebook around this time be playing some part in this?

Rather than waiting to get a idea of the release, from a smoking perspective before buying and especially buying in bulk. People now see these releases as an investment first and buy as much as they can... and if they turn out to be good cigars that's a bonus.

Demand is certainly up, but in terms of the investment side, only Cohiba and Monte seem to be any better than regular production in terms of appreciation and Cohiba is way out in front of Monte. And as I pointed out the RACA which was very reasonably priced and fairly well-received seems to be stalled compared to almost all ELs since 2013. There's no clear evidence that ELs, excuding Cohiba, are a particularly strong investment. Even some of the older ELs have not performed very well. The recent UK auction yielded:

HU Mag 50 (2005): 560 GBP

Hoyo Piramides (2003): 660 GBP

Monte D (2005): 390 GBP

Party Piramides (2000): 660 GBP

PSD2 (2003): 1,220 GBP

PSD3 (2001): 1,010 GBP

So we can see that outside of the PSD2 and PSD3 2001 releases which were very well received upon release and have become very difficult to find the others have increased 200-300% in value over 12-15 years which is not a particularly good ROI after auction fees, storage and shipping costs. Works out to about 5-7% per year--about the same as any El Laguito Cohiba Linea Clasica model. Interestingly, the Party Piramides which IIRC had sold at auction for over $1000 at one point seem to have taken a major hit unless these looked less than appealing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, dangolf18 said:

Weren't the 2012 H.Upmann Robustos pretty much a fail? That and maybe the Ingenios.

Again, hard to really know what are sales fails without seeing production numbers and figures but the HUR can still be found if one looks although the price is strikingly high--between $650-800 USD when they are in stock. They were a very good cigar however. I enjoyed them far more than any Royal Robusto I've ever had.

Cohiba 1966 is still in stock in many places too but prices are in line with recent auction results. Is existing remaining vendor stock after 6-7 years by itself evidence of a sales bust?

I just don't think anyone can reliably speculate on what constitutes a sales fail outside of the industry. Too many variables, particularly with the ELs which have no fixed or stated production numbers. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Price/Quality ratio doesn’t justify them but I have purchased many LE boxes in my time.  The two biggest duds to me where the HU Mag 48 and the Trini Ingenios.  

Two exceptional LE’s for me were Trini Topes and Monte 520.  Honourable mention to Boli Super Corona.

Disclaimer:  I never had the Hoyo Particulares nor the Cohiba Sublimes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

Community Software by Invision Power Services, Inc.