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18 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Once upon a time I believed cigar tobacco was a one crop a year exercise. The farms were hallowed and the soil protected and rested. 

That was until I popped in one March to a VA Finca and saw a beautiful crop of tobacco. I was having coffee with the owner and asked why there was a crop of tobacco in the field come March?  He said that because he had access to water, he could plant a cigarette crop after the cigar crop was picked and cleared.  He wasn't the only one.

So how, if at all (in theory and / or reality), might this affect the following crop destined for cigars?

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17 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

So how, if at all (in theory and / or reality), might this affect the following crop destined for cigars?

Well technically, a tobacco plant is voracious and strips the soil of minerals.  The 10 months is required to let it rest, build it up, let it recover in order that it can again deliver another crop. 

 

From a farmers (some)  perspective. 

It still gets to rest for 8 months. 

Throw some more manure on it. 

The money from the cigarette tobacco crop more than makes up for any yield loss on the tobacco crop.....not that any loss has been noticed. 

It's not like I will be smoking Cohiba any time soon or roasting pigs for 50 tourists at lunch in my million dollar finca attraction. ;)

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

They are only following the Fuente (Opus X & Don Carlos) +  Padron (Anniversario) Model.........fine capitalists that they are :D

They didn't invent fancy packaging/vintage cigars/super premium market. Apparently they are not permitted to play in it?

 

... does Fuente make an Opus X machine made cigarillo? Answer NO!

Do the Cubans have a creative brain amongst them (in the government run cigar company)? Answer NO!

Are they actually so ignorant of capitalism that they are unable to lead the market in anything, even while having a monopoly? Answer YES!

Are they following the NC cigar makers even though they have a monopoly, slave labor etc.? Answer YES.

Have they just proven that Cohiba and Trinidad are just names put on a box to sell it, even if it trashes their brand status? Answer YES.

I still argue mate you are totally wrong about Cuban capitalism. Capitalists might work hard at keeping labor rates down, but 'free market capitalism' no longer uses slaves and has never used a government control of supply and demand! Capitalism and Communism cannot coexist. Capitalism and slavery cannot coexist. Capitalism is an economic system based on freedom, and competition, not slavery. This is a slave state, selling shit for a profit. That does not make it capitalist, it generally makes it criminal.

Al Capone filled a gap for booze during prohibition. He was not a capitalist. He was a criminal filling a void created by an overly powerful government. Selling goods stolen from a house does not make the thief a capitalist. The act of selling therefore, does not define capitalism. It is but one aspect of it.

-R

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7 hours ago, El Presidente said:

Cohiba Robusto Suprema, Trinidad Topes, Mag 56....I could list 15 LE in the last decade. The marketing part is going ok. Let's not talk Anejado :D

Oh, Añejado, the lonely and misunderstood LE.  I still believe!  What a lovely line of cigars.  I love the mystery of doubting if the marca is really what it says it is, and why is the box stamping so inconsistent?  Intriguing! 

Maybe it’s a master marketing play.  Maybe, just maybe, the compañeroes at Habanos are genius, viral marketers?  Maybe it’s the greatest puzzle ever conceived for a product.  Maybe you have to buy all the boxes until you have the answer!  

I’m a sucker for them.  Great cigars.

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8 hours ago, El Presidente said:

But Davidoff does...and a very popular one. 

 

Try to find a Cohiba Robusto Suprema, Trinidad Topes, Mag 56....I could list 15 LE in the last decade. The marketing part is going ok. Let's not talk Anejado :D

 

Leading is not in their DNA. That is why half of the JV is stuck in the 50's. The other half of the JV doesn't control manufacturing/production. 

If my wide receivers can't catch but my running back makes yard......I will be running the ball.  They are playing it safe. 

Trashes nothing to my mind. Some will disagree and I have no problem with that. Davidoff Cigarillos haven't positioned Davidoff internationally as the "Lucky Strike" of cigars. 

 

 

Western capitalism has government bailouts. Top end corruption sees very few (if any) go to jail. 

"Free market capitalism" exists only in textbooks. It is a fairytale. 

Capitalism and slavery cannot coexist. Capitalism is an economic system based on freedom, and competition, not slavery

Ray, your kidding right? :rotfl:

Capitalism exists with slavery quite well (perhaps the preferred model!).  Until put under the spotlight a few years ago, Nike/Puma /sneaker manufacturing was no better than Tabacuba.  LVMH and other luxury good manufacturers have been been accused of slave labour (but we outsource so not our fault!!!). Shall we start on electronics?

Capitalism without supervision in many cases reverts to slavery. $20 a month, $2 a day or $10 an hour can all be slavery.

The holy grail of capitalism is "maximised return". 

Look around you Ray......Capitalism is not about competition....it's  about being the last man standing and controlling market share? Control market share and you control supply and pricing.  Pharma, agribusiness, electronics etc etc. You can't beat the competition? Merge! 

 

I have referred to  Cuba as the biggest "body hire company in the world" Doctors, nurses are exported/exploited, locals same.  The system is detestable. 

The embargo hasn't removed it in 50 years, but let's keep going because that makes sense. 

Hang on....let's exclude hotels with US Joint ventures.

Hang on....let's permit the JV partner subsidiary to operate freely in the USA. 

The hypocrisy is beyond description. 

To summarise, check what slave sneakers you are wearing on your feet before giving "Capitalism  freedom,  competition, not slavery" speeches.

We just had a royal commission here into Banking. 

  • Fees charged with no services delivered (nor intended to be delivered).
  • the badgering of the elderly or the desperate leading to suicide. 
  • falsifying documentation
  • collusion. 

The final report was scathing. The number of people charged?   Zero. 

It's all bullshit Ray. But feel free to keep flying the flag for something that no longer exists (and possibly never did). 

 

"But Rob....it's the best system we have!"

well....we had better find a new one soon because the current one is broken and someone down the track is going to shove that capitalism flagpole right up my arse. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree on one point my friend. Capitalism no longer exists! This, I believe is true. The administrative state, if not socialist/authoritarian models have deformed it and mutilated it.

So my fine point comes full circle. We have no capitalism. Ultimately, that was a point I was making. You cannot blame what no longer exists. Cuba, in degrees furthest from capitalism is an exemplary state. You seem to be leading (the way I read you) to conflating capitalism with thievery! I think not. We can disagree on that.

After so many years we at least finally agree on something (about Tabacuba) and that is that it runs Cuban cigar output and production and HSA does not. I will revel in that a moment! Capitalists, well no one... tells an authoritarian government what to do, well, except perhaps sometimes a country with a stronger military. I said sometimes!

Capitalist models abolished slavery! Where is your proof please about where capitalism created it? Slavery was created out of authoritarian models, not capitalist ones.

Prowling the planet for cheap labor, primarily those who's governments are largely socialist/authoritarian is a capitalistic enterprise. That we can agree on. The plight of the poor in many of the world countries is not the result of capitalism. Most of these cheap labor pools are not found in countries known for freedom or capitalism. They are largely authoritarian, or socialist countries! Venezuela, once the richest country in South America is a prime example of what the loss of capitalism means to a population. Is that your preference?

I could go on, point for point but if you are going to say that company that buys labor from a government that is socialist and controls its labor via a socialist/authoritarian model, is then actually responsible for controlling those lives used as labor as if it were the cause, then you just made a substantial argument for the EMBARGO! I did not know you supported the US embargo! You just made an argument for it!

I have to ask you then. In a move to promote freedom, should capitalists pull out of the third world and halt business with authoritarian/socialist countries to save the people?

I am quite sure that your banking system is not very free. Your country is largely socialist in nature. I understand that your countrymen need to use a VPN to access this very site. That is not capitalist!!! Is that what you prefer?

Before bagging on the bankers, who may in fact be criminal, I know nothing about it, you might tell me some about all the laws, checks and balances that were put in place by your government to protect people. I am sure those laws, just like ours, were socialist in nature (frankly anti-capitalist, government controlling production and use), counter productive and did little or noting. You just said they did little or nothing. Did capitalist enact these laws or did socialists? Did capitalist then allow them to skate, or socialists allow them to skate?Answer me honestly if all these laws anti-capitalist laws worked. Apparently not! Capitalist don't write all the projectionist laws (anti-capitalist laws)... socialist do! Again, you conflate criminal activity with capitalism. As long as you are going to do that, we have no common ground on which to discuss this.

The fact really is, that the criminal enterprises are the authoritarian/socialist models.

I love you mate but I think you are confused. In the diatribe above you go on to explain the failures of what you presume to be capitalism, just to deny that it exists...! So if it does not exist, then please stop telling me it is responsible for all these woes. You cannot have it both ways.

Your people are getting screwed by your government, one socialist in nature, not by the county's capitalists. You cannot control each industry, labor, price and production, lock the local cigar vendor from the internet and blame your county's criminality on capitalism.

My friend, if there is someone waiving a flag here, it is you waiving a flag for socialism and then telling me where and how it has failed, and then blaming capitalism for it!

Cheers! -Ray

 

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We agree to disagree Pigster ;)

Don't exhaust yourself  between all the flag waving and finger pointing. Rest up and while wearing your Nike  :D

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16 hours ago, PigFish said:

Have they just proven that Cohiba and Trinidad are just names put on a box to sell it, even if it trashes their brand status? Answer YES.

Neither new, nor genuinely Cuban "ingenuity".... To add what Rob said above about the NC-brand's small MM cigars - The small Cubans had been a concept mainly of some of the large European importers back in the late 80s and 90s. E.g. the mini-Monte and mini-Cohiba have been, among others, a (joint) creation of French Seita in response to the regressive sales of large / full-format cigars in their markets back then (prior to the boom). Those had even been produced outside of Cuba, in France and Spain (also heavy lawsuit-ing going on at that time regarding TM-rights).

So, as much as I hate to say it Ray, but - and as justified as your critique of the particular products may be - your reasoning of the branding of small machine-made cigars, such as Mini, Club, or the more recent Short (a marketing move driven by 5th-Ave) cashing in on the use of famous brand names, to be indicating an actual sign of either 'capitalist' or 'communist' mechanisms at work behind it, is founded on wrong assumptions.  :yes:

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5 hours ago, Fugu said:

Neither new, nor genuinely Cuban "ingenuity".... To add what Rob said above about the NC-brand's small MM cigars - The small Cubans had been a concept mainly of some of the large European importers back in the late 80s and 90s. E.g. the mini-Monte and mini-Cohiba have been, among others, a (joint) creation of French Seita in response to the regressive sales of large / full-format cigars in their markets back then (prior to the boom). Those had even been produced outside of Cuba, in France and Spain (also heavy lawsuit-ing going on at that time regarding TM-rights).

So, as much as I hate to say it Ray, but - and as justified as your critique of the particular products may be - your reasoning of the branding of small machine-made cigars, such as Mini, Club, or the more recent Short (a marketing move driven by 5th-Ave) cashing in on the use of famous brand names, to be indicating an actual sign of either 'capitalist' or 'communist' mechanisms at work behind it, is founded on wrong assumptions.  :yes:

... who asked you??? -LOL (read with levity)

Have soap box will travel!

-R

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I should probably get to bed—I had to scroll back to the top to see if I was reading the Trinidad Short thread and not the “Left or Right” thread....😏

 

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6 hours ago, El Presidente said:

We agree to disagree Pigster ;)

Don't exhaust yourself  between all the flag waving and finger pointing. Rest up and while wearing your Nike  :D

Don't wear nikes. Wear Keens. Made in the USA baby!!! Unlike your hats!!! -LOL

-R

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8 hours ago, zeedubbya said:

I should probably get to bed—I had to scroll back to the top to see if I was reading the Trinidad Short thread and not the “Left or Right” thread....😏

 

... yes, you should have gone to bed! -R

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6 hours ago, PigFish said:

Made in the USA baby!!! 

-R

In the name of accuracy ......Assembled in the USA Ray...assembled from 5 major pre made imported parts. 

arrives in 5 pieces . 20 minutes per shoe. click click box. 

Nothing wrong with that at all.  https://gearjunkie.com/keen-built-in-usa

However I am sure your shoe doesn't mention that every individual part of that shoe was made in a Chinese/bangladeshi/Shrilankan/mexican/ factory.  :D

 

 

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On 2/18/2019 at 4:07 PM, PigFish said:

Capitalist models abolished slavery

On 2/18/2019 at 4:07 PM, PigFish said:

 

 

I'm I reading this correctly?. I don't want to knee jerk. Are you suggesting that capitalism should be commended for pulling the plug on slavery?. Again I'm sure I'm reading this incorrectly, or accidentally switched my eye drops with LSD

 

 

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On 2/16/2019 at 2:15 PM, cfc1016 said:

Yeah. That's what short filler is. With resources stretched as thin as they are in Cuba, you gotta expect them to try not to waste material that's taken a lot of resources to produce.

Here's the progression. Scraps from each level are used to make the next one:

Hand rolled/long filler cigars

Hand rolled/short filler cigars

Machine rolled/ short filler cigars

Machine rolled/ short filler puritos->clubs-> minis

Cigarettes

So let me get this straight:  when you say scraps, are you referring to scraps from de-stemming the leaves?  As I understand, the leaves are de-stemmed and sorted before being bundled up for the cigar rollers to be rolled into actual cigars.  Or do you mean they collect all the scraps from the rolling tables (e.g. pieces from the wrapper being cut to size, any loose pieces, etc)?  If the latter, that seems a bit of a pain from a logistics standpoint and I would have to assume I am also smoking dead skin, hairs, and whatnot from the rolling tables when I smoke a machine-made cigarillo?  Maybe not quite the exquisite special "floor sweeping" cigars that are popular in Caribbean tourist beaches, but not that far of a stretch either.

I would have thought that the leaves that didn't make the sorting process or quality control for big cigars would then be passed down to be made into cigarillos.

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On 2/17/2019 at 3:54 PM, El Presidente said:

Throw some more manure on it. 

 

Maybe they'll dabble with night soil...

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On 2/19/2019 at 8:45 AM, PigFish said:

Don't wear nikes. Wear Keens. Made in the USA baby!!! Unlike your hats!!! -LOL

-R

So are New Balance M990V4.  Incredibly comfortable and supportive.  Eliminated a nasty case of plantar fasciitis  I had years ago.  And can be reimbursed by Medicare if rx'd (would likely need a prior authorization I imagine).

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I don't know how I missed out on this thread for this long. Hahaha. 

I picked up a few packs of these in Havana this weekend and really enjoyed them. I smoked through a pack and half in about 3 days. I will do a side by side with the Cohibas soon, but I have to be honest, I think they're the same. 

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