The Anti-Review: Why I am tiring of Cuban cigars.

[MD Puffer]

5 hours ago, ponfed said:

Privatization would/will bring it's own slew of problems. You think cigars are getting too big now and it's a race towards 54 and higher rg? Just wait until privatization.

Lonsdales gone. Montecarlo gone. Most PC gone. LGC will produce Toros. Series le hoyo wiped out and we keep San Juan and higher rg cigar.

Forget demi tasse etc...

A hundred and fifty Marcas with gaudy packaging. Then marketing.... 

 

And that's not becoming the trend already?  That's a reflection of consumer demand, not government policies.  And if you examine the most successful NC cigar companies (Davidoff, Oliva, Padron, etc), they all have vitola offerings that you mention would be eliminated.  

[ponfed]

8 minutes ago, MD Puffer said:

And that's not becoming the trend already?  That's a reflection of consumer demand, not government policies.  And if you examine the most successful NC cigar companies (Davidoff, Oliva, Padron, etc), they all have vitola offerings that you mention would be eliminated.  

I'm not saying that privatization or loosening of the monopoly would be all bad. I'm just saying that it wouldn't necessarily fix everything and that it could exacerbate some tendencies that might make CCs lose some of their.. uniqueness. 

And I'm not sure it's all consumer demand. I think there is a strategy comming from Habanos S.A that deliberately pushes to make CCs more like NCs. And I think its dictated a lot by marketing.

But it's not all black and white. There is certainly a whole lot of things that Cuba could learn and appropriate from NC manufacturers, QC being first among them. 

And of course, government control, lack of competition, and organisational inertia are the big obstacles that prevent that.

I know my first post wasn't that nuanced, but in my defense I posted from bed just before passing out...

[MD Puffer]

I hear ya.  If HSA pushes to make CCs more like NCs in terms of consistency and quality control then that's not such a bad thing I think.  Hopefully we won't ever see a 64 RG Toro being offered.   However, privatized or nationalized, if enough people want it then they will make it.  

 

[MD Puffer]

1 hour ago, ponfed said:

And I'm not sure it's all consumer demand. I think there is a strategy comming from Habanos S.A that deliberately pushes to make CCs more like NCs. And I think its dictated a lot by marketing.

How is that not consumer demand.  The NC cigar industry isn't making large RG cigars to make the market.  Consumers are showing a preference for large RG cigars.  Manufacturers give them what they want.  HSA following suit is smart business- not necessarily good for what a purist or aficionado would say is the right thing.  

I don't think this phenomena is limited to cigars and one can examine it in many other industries as well.

[PigFish]

I just visited a popular online retailer of NC cigars. Posting the link is likely against the rules so I won't do that.

So privatization would hurt selection huh... I have to ask, why speculate when you can prove something to yourself? I see this as a major problem in many areas, not just cigars.

I did a search at that site for cigars between 42 and 44 ring. Remember, this is just one retailer! 

I got 537 choices.

Privatization does not mean you will only get fat cigars. Don't take my word for it, please, please... just prove it to yourself!

Privatization means competition, competence and more choices, not fewer. But don't blindly believe me, step out of your cubicle and look around you at the marketplace. Choices are everywhere... except maybe in Cuba and North Korea...!

-the Pig

[dowjr1]

11 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

The frustrating thing for many CC smokers is that roll quality is easy to fix. Every cigar rolling country in the world has mastered it; Africa, DR, Ecuador, Honduras, Nicaragua, Mexico, US, and everywhere in between. Quality control is atrocious in CCs. And it's not just draw issues, we see the result of very lax controls in length, width, color, box labels, cigar labels, warped boxes, and so on. 

But as consumers we vote with our money, so the only way the situation improves is if people stop buying until quality improves (never gonna happen). 

 

Many countries on this side of the globe have figured out how to not have the need to ration food for the masses but apparently Cuba hasn’t figured that out either. LOL It’s still a third world country.  So is anyone surprised many things we enjoy and consider basic or common business practice isn’t done there?

[Oscar300]

18 hours ago, SenorPerfecto said:

It happens occasionally,@pigfish. I smoke aged and I smoke current. Mainly but not exclusively 50rg and under.

The tunneling you picture simply... does not happen often enough for me to gripe about it. One or 2 a month, for a daily average of 2 cigars smoked.

Maybe it’s your storage? I use 2 Newair 280 wineadors and the weather in there is fine

Yeah PigFish, its your storage technique.........  

[ponfed]

 

7 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I just visited a popular online retailer of NC cigars. Posting the link is likely against the rules so I won't do that.

So privatization would hurt selection huh... I have to ask, why speculate when you can prove something to yourself? I see this as a major problem in many areas, not just cigars.

I did a search at that site for cigars between 42 and 44 ring. Remember, this is just one retailer! 

I got 537 choices.

Privatization does not mean you will only get fat cigars. Don't take my word for it, please, please... just prove it to yourself!

Privatization means competition, competence and more choices, not fewer. But don't blindly believe me, step out of your cubicle and look around you at the marketplace. Choices are everywhere... except maybe in Cuba and North Korea...!

-the Pig

I'm not saying that privatisation would be all bad for cigars. And I'm not even talking about the positive effect to the cuban people of even just a bit of liberalisation of the economy .

It's just that privatisation has ripple effects, and I think we are gonna see an alignment of some sort, that we already see starting, with the practices and norms of the NC cigar world.

And given the quantity of cuban tobacco available, choices will be made. 

It's easier to have 537 choice when you have tobacco from the entire tobacco belt, What is the acreage of tobacco fields in Cuba, vs Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico,US,Dominican Republic and I'm sure I'm missing some.

I went to a popular online retailer (I don't think it's the same as you cause the numbers don't add up, although it's in the same proportion.)

3971 cigars between 0 and 50 rg. That seems like a lot.. although it includes Phillies, Blackwoods and other crap gas station stuff like that. But still.

However there are 5265 cigars between 50 and 54 only. 

Again, I'm not saying privatisation is all bad for CCs. But I do think that with the tobacco available, a lot of sub 47 cigars are gonna go bye bye. 

That being said I'm not opposed to see a non puro cigar with cuban tobacco mixed with honduran or nicaraguan. That would be interesting.

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, ponfed said:

 

I'm not saying that privatisation would be all bad for cigars. And I'm not even talking about the positive effect to the cuban people of even just a bit of liberalisation of the economy .

It's just that privatisation has ripple effects, and I think we are gonna see an alignment of some sort, that we already see starting, with the practices and norms of the NC cigar world.

And given the quantity of cuban tobacco available, choices will be made. 

It's easier to have 537 choice when you have tobacco from the entire tobacco belt, What is the acreage of tobacco fields in Cuba, vs Nicaragua, Honduras, Mexico,US,Dominican Republic and I'm sure I'm missing some.

I went to a popular online retailer (I don't think it's the same as you cause the numbers don't add up, although it's in the same proportion.)

3971 cigars between 0 and 50 rg. That seems like a lot.. although it includes Phillies, Blackwoods and other crap gas station stuff like that. But still.

However there are 5265 cigars between 50 and 54 only. 

Again, I'm not saying privatisation is all bad for CCs. But I do think that with the tobacco available, a lot of sub 47 cigars are gonna go bye bye. 

That being said I'm not opposed to see a non puro cigar with cuban tobacco mixed with honduran or nicaraguan. That would be interesting.

... my friend, Cuba is a criminal state. The people are forced to the black market just to feed themselves. Many are running scams of some sort at every level. This is endemic of their government and not a condemnation of the people that are imprisoned there.

Walmart is better run that Cuba... The damn DMV is run better than Cuba... That says a lot in and of itself. Man, if I were guessing (something I just criticized from above) I would guess that the economy of Fresno, CA is likely larger than Cuba's (read as humor).

Speculate all you want brother, but the only scarcity that exists with Cuban tobacco is the making of the Cuban government and the result of their bungling central authority model.

-the Pig

[prodigy]

Many countries on this side of the globe have figured out how to not have the need to ration food for the masses but apparently Cuba hasn’t figured that out either. LOL It’s still a third world country.  So is anyone surprised many things we enjoy and consider basic or common business practice isn’t done there?

Cuba is a 2nd world country.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Oscar300 said:

Yeah PigFish, its your storage technique.........  

Yeah mate... For decades I have fought myth and ignorance in this hobby. I do proffer many cannot distinguished between storage and construction issues. My inbox if full people asking for guidance on these matters.

I would say this is a prime example, yet I understand that this was likely a playful jab from a guy that I often disagree with.

I create some waves... I get back some of what I deserve!!! -LOL Humor is not lost on me!

-the Pig

[Philc2001]

2 hours ago, dowjr1 said:

Many countries on this side of the globe have figured out how to not have the need to ration food for the masses but apparently Cuba hasn’t figured that out either. LOL It’s still a third world country.  So is anyone surprised many things we enjoy and consider basic or common business practice isn’t done there?

I don't know when you were last in Cuba, I was just there a few weeks ago. Certain things may be backwards in Cuba, but in Havana you certainly don't see people starving or homeless on the streets. Believe me, you will see far worse in some of the inner cities in the US. Just about everyone we met in Havana were pretty upbeat, happy, hard working and fun to be with.

I've been to several other countries in the Caribbean, Europe and Asia and I've witnessed far worse poverty and human conditions outside of Cuba. Just my $0.02.

Of course, as a tourist you don't really get to experience government services much, so I can't relate as it pertains to the inner workings of gov't, and that is likely the root cause of the QC issues. 

[MD Puffer]

2 hours ago, ponfed said:

Again, I'm not saying privatisation is all bad for CCs. But I do think that with the tobacco available, a lot of sub 47 cigars are gonna go bye bye. 

I'm not sure what prompts you to thinks this.  If the majority of CC consumers want sub 47 RG cigars, the manufacturers will increase production of sub 47 RG cigars.  The reason large RG cigars are becoming increasingly prevalent is because that is the contemporary trend among consumers.

[Ritch]

So we are all agreed that it's all down to how Pigfish stores his cigars?

There's a chap on these forums that he should ask for advice. Cannot for the life of me remember his name...

[ponfed]

 

20 minutes ago, MD Puffer said:

I'm not sure what prompts you to thinks this.  If the majority of CC consumers want sub 47 RG cigars, the manufacturers will increase production of sub 47 RG cigars.  The reason large RG cigars are becoming increasingly prevalent is because that is the contemporary trend among consumers.

I don't know that what you are saying is in contradiction to what I'm saying. 

The only point in your preceding posts that I will argue with you is that producers can influence demand in subtle ways. When private companies produce cuban cigars, they will be in the same ecosystem as the NC producers and they will be under pressure to produce huge cigars. 

Seeing as tobacco stocks are limited, smaller cigars will be cut. That's all. It was bit of a rant in my first post because I prefer small cigars, but that's all.

Also I just wanna say, to you and @PigFish too, that none of what I say about this should be interpreted as me being opposed to change and reforms, including privatization, in Cuba.

I'm not opposed to government monopolies in principle, but I'm in total agreement that the situation in Cuba is f%#&ed. 

My preference in cigars is less then nothing compared to the welfare of people. I was just ranting about trends in the cigar world and their exacerbation if and when there is privatization, liberalisation, and/or systemic change. 

[TBird55]

Privatization means competition, competence and morechoices, not fewer. But don't blindly believe me, step out of your cubicle and look around you at the marketplace. Choices are everywhere... except maybe in Cuba and North Korea...!

-the Pig

 

I totaly agree that privatization should be a good thing and should not have an adverse effect on sizes. The market will determine what sizes they produce.  I met a fellow FOH member at a local B & M last week to enjoy a cigar. He was smoking a monti #2, and I a lancero. I gave the proprietor a Sir Winston, and his partner a lancero. There were probably 15 other people there smoking, also. They all had cigars with a RG 54 and above. The only cigars that I saw( except what my friend and I brought ) smoked or purchased were 54+. Fat cigars seem to be what the masses want. I hope that it is just a fad and the pendulum will swing back and we will see more smaller RG offered.

[MD Puffer]

58 minutes ago, ponfed said:

 

I don't know that what you are saying is in contradiction to what I'm saying. 

The only point in your preceding posts that I will argue with you is that producers can influence demand in subtle ways. When private companies produce cuban cigars, they will be in the same ecosystem as the NC producers and they will be under pressure to produce huge cigars. 

Seeing as tobacco stocks are limited, smaller cigars will be cut. That's all. It was bit of a rant in my first post because I prefer small cigars, but that's all.

Also I just wanna say, to you and @PigFish too, that none of what I say about this should be interpreted as me being opposed to change and reforms, including privatization, in Cuba.

I'm not opposed to government monopolies in principle, but I'm in total agreement that the situation in Cuba is f%#&ed. 

My preference in cigars is less then nothing compared to the welfare of people. I was just ranting about trends in the cigar world and their exacerbation if and when there is privatization, liberalisation, and/or systemic change. 

The only point in your preceding posts that I will argue with you is that producers can influence demand in subtle ways. When private companies produce cuban cigars, they will be in the same ecosystem as the NC producers and they will be under pressure to produce huge cigars.

But NC producers aren't making large ringed cigars for any other reason other than consumer demand.  HSA will follow suit whether the cigar industry in Cuba becomes privatized or not.

Seeing as tobacco stocks are limited, smaller cigars will be cut. That's all. It was bit of a rant in my first post because I prefer small cigars, but that's all.

But not if the majority of consumers want smaller ringed cigars.

I'm not opposed to government monopolies in principle, but I'm in total agreement that the situation in Cuba is f%#&ed. 

The situation being what it is in Cuba is a result of a government monopoly (ie nationalization).  I'm leaving politics off the table, but you may want to rethink the pragmatism and wisdom of any country's government monopolizing/nationalizing any industry.  

Incidentally, I'm a corona/lonsdale/corona gorda guy myself.  So I'm not an advocate for hog legged stogies.  I'm just trying to point out that HSA isn't copying NC producer's trends of larger ringed cigars for the sake of copying them.  It's what the market demands.  It's precisely why iPhones became too large.  And then were offered in two sizes.

If all you make is large RG cigars and the market is crying out for small RG cigars and you don't change your product then you will go out of business because another guy will see the demand and start making small RG cigars to satisfy the demand.  

[bpm32]

If the Cuban tobacco industry were privatized we'd see fewer puros. That would irritate me more than the loss of the smaller ring sizes. Of course, I'm sure there would be a smaller trade in Cuban puros that would look more like the fair trade and relationship coffee market. In that regard, I bet you'd see a lot of funky smaller gauge pre-embargo vitolas where you'd get a note saying who grew the plants and where. Quality and price of those would be ridiculously high.

[El Presidente]

4 hours ago, PigFish said:

 

Privatization means competition, competence and more choices, not fewer. 

-the Pig

Privatisation is no panacea. Privatisation  without regulation means the market is eventually  dominated by big players who have vertically integrated and take few risks.

How different are those General, Altadis, RP cigars. How many great smaller brands have been swallowed up only to become a shadow of their former selves. 

Who is behind the FDA  drive grandfathering clauses in the USA? Big tobacco. They want to crush the smaller operators. 

 

Closer to home. 

How many 54+ gauge cigars are the havana Rollers doing?   50% 60% 70% of what they are doing. 

I saw 60+ gauges at Riviera, Alex, Reinaldo, Melia (C&H) ...everywhere. 

They roll them because they sell. That is what people are asking for. 

Once upon a time a Salomon was "huge".  Today it would look like a Lancero on a custom rollers selection table. 

 

 

I

[pdxcigarguy]

Buy PSP and never look back.

You may also want to look into the Reserve or Gran Reserva releases.

Cheers ?

[99call]

2 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

I've been to several other countries in the Caribbean, Europe and Asia and I've witnessed far worse poverty and human conditions outside of Cuba. Just my $0.02.

Would agree with this 100%.  Communism or Capitalism (whats the difference) the majority of the worlds countries are run by utter scumbags, who endeavour to block social mobility, line theirs and their friends pockets.  

The homeless problem in the UK, is now very stark. People with full time jobs having to use food banks to get by. The state fo the country is very bleak, and the upper classes are lapping it up. 

[Ritch]

I think that the move towards larger RG's is somewhat supported by HSA and to some degree led by them. Think about it logically. A larger ring gauge is going to be more forgiving of a roller who rolls too tight or who underfills. This is simple physics. A larger RG will be easier to roll, have more surface area for suction and the a tight or plugged section will be alleviated by another area that is not so tight. Under filled cigars will be carried by the areas that are not under filled. 

Plus the bulk can be made up of leaf that is not prime leaf - utilising more bad leaf overall and minimising wastage and increasing profits.

Not to mention that a bigger cigar supports higher prices. If people think they are getting a cigar that is twice as wide then they do not mind paying twice as much.

 

5 hours ago, 99call said:

Would agree with this 100%.  Communism or Capitalism (whats the difference) the majority of the worlds countries are run by utter scumbags, who endeavour to block social mobility, line theirs and their friends pockets.  

The homeless problem in the UK, is now very stark. People with full time jobs having to use food banks to get by. The state fo the country is very bleak, and the upper classes are lapping it up. 

The cost of housing is simply too much. Combined with more people being single parents and having one wage coming in and usually a very expensive child care bill makes life bloody hard for most people.

The answer is not increased wages - that will bring about inflation. The answer is a massive oversupply of housing (somewhat partially being done now) and ideally the stagnation of house prices.

Oh and also the compulsory hanging of all estate agents who quite literally ramp up prices going off nothing more than a guess and a feeling. Not like it's in their interest to increase prices and thus their commission is it?

May as well hang the solicitors too to be on the safe side...

[99call]

14 minutes ago, Ritch said:

The answer is not increased wages

The answer is to have a government with a shred of human decency.  

 

[ponfed]

2 hours ago, MD Puffer said:

 

The situation being what it is in Cuba is a result of a government monopoly (ie nationalization).  I'm leaving politics off the table, but you may want to rethink the pragmatism and wisdom of any country's government monopolizing/nationalizing any industry

I agree to leave politics off the table, but since you put your little bit in,  I hope you'll allow me the same courtesy.

The reasons for Cuba's situation are multifaceted and complex. Of course du in large part to Castro. But also due in no small part to an embargo that was strategic globally,  but also petty retribution that continues inexplicably to this day. 

You might want to rethink your absolutism concerning monopolies and their blanket undesirability in any industries. I'll let you compare the brown outs and straight up gangsterism and defrauding of Enron with any number of nationalized energy concern, like where I live.

Monopolies have their place, the market is not magic, demand can be manipulated for any number of reasons.

I think we can put politics away now, and I hope you will have allowed that one response, and I hope we can leave it at that.

I feel we're getting down an unproductive and unpleasant road.

 

[Ritch]

2 minutes ago, 99call said:

The answer is to have a government with a shred of human decency.  

 

A government with a basic grasp of economics I including supply and demand would be a start. A government prepared to do the right thing despite how unpopular would be even better.

Why should schools start at 08.30 or 09.00? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to start at 0730 to allow parents to drop kids off and then get to work? How about schools finishing later so that parents dont have to pay for expensive wrap around care?

How about building more motorways and reducing congestion?

How about increasing interest rates slowly and progressively starting approx 5 years ago? If there is a downturn now then rates cannot be lowered to act as ane conomic stimulus. 

How about making public transport free?

So many things that could be done...