Strong statement from a company like NewAir....

[Wilzc]

 

 

Observe. Ponder and forum!

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ponfed]

@PigFish is gonna have an aneurysm. And I wouldn't blame him.

[Markspring1978]

The information is technically correct if you are concerned only about humidity ratio, measured  grains of moisture per pound (GPP) of dry air. The GPP for all of these conditions are essentially identical, roughly 76 GPP. For NC cigars, the 70/70 is a pretty standard guideline, and works for most people. What most people fail to understand is the relationship of temperature to humidity. So, if you think that 70% humidity is what you need for your cigars, you are only looking at half the equation. If the temp spikes to 80 degrees, and you keep the 70% humidity, the GPP just exploded to 108, and now dew point is a factor as well, moldy cigars are pretty much guaranteed. 

BTW- my business is drying structures that have been impacted by water/moiture/humidity. 

[bpm32]

1 hour ago, Markspring1978 said:

The information is technically correct if you are concerned only about humidity ratio, measured  grains of moisture per pound (GPP) of dry air. The GPP for all of these conditions are essentially identical, roughly 76 GPP. For NC cigars, the 70/70 is a pretty standard guideline, and works for most people. What most people fail to understand is the relationship of temperature to humidity. So, if you think that 70% humidity is what you need for your cigars, you are only looking at half the equation. If the temp spikes to 80 degrees, and you keep the 70% humidity, the GPP just exploded to 108, and now dew point is a factor as well, moldy cigars are pretty much guaranteed. 

BTW- my business is drying structures that have been impacted by water/moiture/humidity. 

Good God, I had no idea that GPPs existed as a unit. Horrifying! Still better than deciliters and hectometers though.

As for the chart, yeah, looks plausible.

[Markspring1978]

55 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

Good God, I had no idea that GPPs existed as a unit. Horrifying! Still better than deciliters and hectometers though.

As for the chart, yeah, looks plausible.

It’s actually much more helpful than Rh% or T, which can be misleading, because it tells you how much moisture is being held in the air. 

[El Presidente]

as useful  a guide as a BMI index. 

[bpm32]

34 minutes ago, Markspring1978 said:

It’s actually much more helpful than Rh% or T, which can be misleading, because it tells you how much moisture is being held in the air. 

I'm sure it is--I was just amused by the units. The two different units of weight keep the numbers in an easily remembered range (like 50 or 80 instead of 0.00034 or something). Pretty close to slugs per cubic cubit in ridiculousness though. GPP replaces the BTU as my favorite unit of measure.

[LGC]

as useful as a guide as a BMI index. 

Says it all right there!

[PigFish]

This chart is absolutely meaningless. It is no wonder their humidors don't work!

I have a question.

How do you go from 61F and 96rH to 60F and Zero rH in 1 degree F? Does water just disappear at 60F or what?

I would make a lot more fun of this if I just understood what they were trying to convey. I am being serious now. Someone please explain it to me!!!

 

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one!

-Piggy

[PigFish]

... don't bother explaining it to me. I would rather go to the dentist....

If you want to know about the relationship between cigars, rH and temperature... just watch my video on it.

 

Cheers! -Prof. Piggy

[Wilzc]

This chart is absolutely meaningless. It is no wonder their humidors don't work!
I have a question.
How do you go from 61F and 96rH to 60F and Zero rH in 1 degree F? Does water just disappear at 60F or what?
I would make a lot more fun of this if I just understood what they were trying to convey. I am being serious now. Someone please explain it to me!!!
 
I can't wait to hear the answers to this one!
-Piggy

Zero rH. Welcome to the Garden of Eden. Welcome to perfection. When your cigars reached 60 deg F, they’re perfect, instantly aged +5 years and they have become autonomous, caring for themselves until the time you wish to burn them alive.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ponfed]

30 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one!

-Piggy

Well you see, you take a ruler, put numbers in ascending order on it. You take a second ruler, put numbers in descending order. 

You line up the rulers number for number.

And there you go! You got science!

Alternatively, you ask an intern to Google image search "relative humidity", choose the picture from the shadiest, most fly by night cigar blog.

Copy the thing and put your font on it.

And, again, you got science!

Glad to be of service.

[bpm32]

I guess I’ll be the doofus and ask: what’s the main issue with the chart? Is it just the “No RH Level”, the badness of the presentation, or are the values actually wrong?

[Markspring1978]

1 hour ago, PigFish said:

This chart is absolutely meaningless. It is no wonder their humidors don't work!

I have a question.

How do you go from 61F and 96rH to 60F and Zero rH in 1 degree F? Does water just disappear at 60F or what?

I would make a lot more fun of this if I just understood what they were trying to convey. I am being serious now. Someone please explain it to me!!!

 

I can't wait to hear the answers to this one!

-Piggy

I don’t think the chart is saying that you go to 0% rH at 60 degrees or lower. The point I believe it is makig is that you can’t have a specific humidity that contains enough moisture under 60 degrees. Thus, keep your temp over 60 degrees constantly.

Again, for non-Cuban cigars, this chart is probably helpful. For anyone who thinks that rH alone is the key, they miss the point. And I think this chart does a good job of that, although, probably not for Cubans which seem to do better at a lower specific humidity. 

I checked GPP for the conditions on the chart, they are all virtually identical at 76 GPP. If you don’t want to take my word for it, take a psychometric chart or calculator and plot each set of atmospheric conditions. For anyone who is wondering there are 7,000 grains in a pound of water. 

[PigFish]

11 minutes ago, Markspring1978 said:

I don’t think the chart is saying that you go to 0% rH at 60 degrees or lower. The point I believe it is makig is that you can’t have a specific humidity that contains enough moisture under 60 degrees. Thus, keep your temp over 60 degrees constantly.

Again, for non-Cuban cigars, this chart is probably helpful. For anyone who thinks that rH alone is the key, they miss the point. And I think this chart does a good job of that, although, probably not for Cubans which seem to do better at a lower specific humidity. 

I checked GPP for the conditions on the chart, they are all virtually identical at 76 GPP. If you don’t want to take my word for it, take a psychometric chart or calculator and plot each set of atmospheric conditions. For anyone who is wondering there are 7,000 grains in a pound of water. 

I know plenty about psychrometrics mate. The problem is most people know nothing of hygroscopic materials and their relationship to temperature and humidity.

If you telling me that aH is the only thing that there is to know about storing cigars (an assumption I am making from the statement above) then unfortunately you also don't understand the relationship of rH/temperature to the percent moisture content of tobacco.

If you lower temperature (and maintain rH constant) then tobacco does not get dryer, it gets wetter. Fact mate! If you lower temperature and don't violate the dew-point of the water (a point where water condenses) the aH of a sealed space will remain the same. The rH will increase, but the aH will not. aH is a product of knowing rH and temperature (something you already appear to know). aH alone is as meaningless as the chart above for storing cigars.

The fact is, you cannot tell me how much water is in tobacco based on aH alone. No one can. I cannot be calculated without an isothermal chart of the PMC of the tobacco and a known temperature. That is unless aH is 100% in which case you are now soaking your tobacco in liquid water and it becomes saturated... then it is just friggin wet!

We have come full circle. The chart is meaningless.

If one understands why water boils, as heat is applied molecular bonds are broken, then it is easy to understand as temperature rises, cigars become less attractive to water and they get dryer. It is all pretty simple.

If people would stop looking at cigars as free space, a place water vapor can reside unbonded, and view it as if it were liquid water, a place where water bonds (in this case to another water molecule, at or below certain temperatures) then there would be a far greater understand of how water resides in a cigar.

Cheers! -Piggy

[Markspring1978]

19 minutes ago, PigFish said:

I know plenty about psychrometrics mate. The problem is most people know nothing of hygroscopic materials and their relationship to temperature and humidity.

If you telling me that aH is the only thing that there is to know about storing cigars (an assumption I am making from the statement above) then unfortunately you also don't understand the relationship of rH/temperature to the percent moisture content of tobacco.

If you lower temperature (and maintain rH constant) then tobacco does not get dryer, it gets wetter. Fact mate! If you lower temperature and don't violate the dew-point of the water (a point where water condenses) the aH of a sealed space will remain the same. The rH will increase, but the aH will not. aH is a product of knowing rH and temperature (something you already appear to know). aH alone is as meaningless as the chart above for storing cigars.

The fact is, you cannot tell me how much water is in tobacco based on aH alone. No one can. I cannot be calculated without an isothermal chart of the PMC of the tobacco and a known temperature. That is unless aH is 100% in which case you are now soaking your tobacco in liquid water and it becomes saturated... then it is just friggin wet!

We have come full circle. The chart is meaningless.

If one understands why water boils, as heat is applied molecular bonds are broken, then it is easy to understand as temperature rises, cigars become less attractive to water and they get dryer. It is all pretty simple.

If people would stop looking at cigars as free space, a place water vapor can reside unbonded, and view it as if it were liquid water, a place where water bonds (in this case to another water molecule, at or below certain temperatures) then there would be a far greater understand of how water resides in a cigar.

Cheers! -Piggy

Okay, not sure what we’re arguing about here. As stated earlier, I dry out all sorts of materials, (wood, plaster, textiles, concrete, you name it) that have been affected by water for a living. I completely understand that aH is just one factor in the equation. The nature of organic hygroscopic materials ability to absorb moisture is a significant factor in this and should always be carefully considered. That in addition to often many other factors.  

All that being said, I still believe that there is some value in the above chart that started this thread. I think that it is helpful because it helps people to understand that attentiveness to rH, alone, does not not result in properly stored or aged cigars. I know many people who have moldy cigars and can’t understand why because “I kept it at 69%, like I was supposed to”. This all the while the temperature exceeded 75 in the daytime and dropped at night, (to a dew point) and thus the mold. 

P.S. I like the hat. I use Aimpoint a lot.  

[MD Puffer]

I sear

4 hours ago, PigFish said:

... don't bother explaining it to me. I would rather go to the dentist....

If you want to know about the relationship between cigars, rH and temperature... just watch my video on it.

 

Cheers! -Prof. Piggy

Great video.  On an unrelated note, that sure looks like a photo of Gopher and Captain Stubing behind your left shoulder...

[PigFish]

5 minutes ago, MD Puffer said:

I sear

Great video.  On an unrelated note, that sure looks like a photo of Gopher and Captain Stubing behind your left shoulder...

Kenny Roberts, F1 motorcycle world champion. A few decades ago, we both worked for Yamaha.

[PigFish]

1 hour ago, Markspring1978 said:

Okay, not sure what we’re arguing about here. As stated earlier, I dry out all sorts of materials, (wood, plaster, textiles, concrete, you name it) that have been affected by water for a living. I completely understand that aH is just one factor in the equation. The nature of organic hygroscopic materials ability to absorb moisture is a significant factor in this and should always be carefully considered. That in addition to often many other factors.  

All that being said, I still believe that there is some value in the above chart that started this thread. I think that it is helpful because it helps people to understand that attentiveness to rH, alone, does not not result in properly stored or aged cigars. I know many people who have moldy cigars and can’t understand why because “I kept it at 69%, like I was supposed to”. This all the while the temperature exceeded 75 in the daytime and dropped at night, (to a dew point) and thus the mold. 

P.S. I like the hat. I use Aimpoint a lot.  

I am not arguing with you amigo, I am battling bad data. The internet is full of it. Every 6 to 8 months I get into it with someone hell bent on filling this forum with this load of crap (no offense meant to you in any way, shape or form). I am not ranting about you... I am ranting about the damn chart.

This is junk science. It is outright wrong and it leads to people ruining their cigars!

Mold is everywhere. High temperature does not cause it. What causes it is capillary water and a food source when the spores are present. That's it. You get mold in the fridge, right? Where it is cold, right? Capilary water and a food source!!! That is the science of Aw (water activity).

Ever wonder why the peanut butter cookies in a package don't mold. It is Aw... If you keep the water activity level in a food source sufficiently low (fats instead of water) then you don't get the mold in packaging. The packaging keeps out the water...

Ever wonder why the Oreo cookie is still crisp with the cream center? That's Aw again. Fats in the cream (or whatever that glop is) in the center is what keeps it soft. It is not moist... Water would grow mold and make the wafer soggy. It is fat... not missable with, nor a solvent for the cookie! Hot or cold, the cookie does not mold. It is the lack of water.

Read about water activity (if you have not already). It will teach you much about what you do for a living.

I disagree with you about the chart. Giving someone data on aH where aH is constant, inferring that you can go ahead and store at 66F and 80rH as though it is 70F and 70rH is telling them shit that will damage their cigars. I would not suggest you try it to prove me wrong. You go ahead and store at 66F and 80 and you'll get mold brother... 75F and 59 will be very close to structural failure for many cigars. I store at about 70F and 61rH and it is pretty damn dry.

The chart does not show what you indicate, nothing like it. It (in my mind) attempts to draw a correlation to these numbers and cigar storage as if they are equal. There is no indication of get mold here, don't get it here. Frankly it is totally wrong and misleading. It could not get more wrong.

Some idiot... and I do mean idiot created that! This crap will ruin people cigars... Perhaps some bloke who can't afford to ruin his, not that anyone deserves it.

Not everyone can afford tens-of-thousands in cigars. Not everyone can afford a top tier humidor, AC in their home, and a lot of things that many of us take for granted. Some poor guy with a couple of boxes of cigars, looking for a little data, runs across this crap on the net, draws the wrong conclusion and loses his stock because of this idiotic chart. You won't get the email, but I will...

The guy who authored that should be emasculated!!!

I have spent a long time on this forum trying to teach people (who are interested) in how to store cigars to prevent loss. I make YouBoob videos about it. It takes my time and my money because I enjoy the custom and care for the community. AND yes, it pisses me off when some dope with Photoshop puts this on the net and undoes the hard work I have put into teaching people the truth about caring for cigars.

Rant over.

Best of luck on your storage! Heaven help you if you follow this chart!

-Ray

[HopeUgood]

Is there no good solution to store cigars when you live in a house that heats up to 80 F without controlling the temperature of where the cigars are stored? What is the best thing to do if you cant combat temperature?

[Baccy]

So basically the gist of this chart is that for a given humidity level, the moisture content in the air rises as the temperature falls, and as the temp rises moisture content falls??? I could be wrong but, that's not been my experience at all. That's why when ever we let temps rise a little too much, regardless of humidity, we end up with mold. I used to store my smokes at 69% and things were always fine until I let temps rise upwards of 75 degrees I would start seeing mold amongst other bad things. My storage area NEVER got below about 65 degrees. As long as I kept the temps below 70 all was well. I have ALWAYS heard and been told that it was the opposite of the chart, and I honestly believe that the chart is wrong, but of course I could be wrong! Maybe everyone in the cigar world has doing it wrong for all these years...?

This chart is completely irrelevant anyways because we all use hygrometers(and boveda in my case) which takes the guess work out at and gives us a real-time RH reading.

I think we can all agree that the biggest threat to the health of our cigars is radical swings in temp, stability is key!

[Baccy]

15 hours ago, Markspring1978 said:

The information is technically correct if you are concerned only about humidity ratio, measured  grains of moisture per pound (GPP) of dry air. The GPP for all of these conditions are essentially identical, roughly 76 GPP. For NC cigars, the 70/70 is a pretty standard guideline, and works for most people. What most people fail to understand is the relationship of temperature to humidity. So, if you think that 70% humidity is what you need for your cigars, you are only looking at half the equation. If the temp spikes to 80 degrees, and you keep the 70% humidity, the GPP just exploded to 108, and now dew point is a factor as well, moldy cigars are pretty much guaranteed. 

BTW- my business is drying structures that have been impacted by water/moiture/humidity. 

I AGREE, but it looks as if the chart is showing the opposite...

[Wilzc]

When I first saw this NewAir chart I almost crapped myself before I took a snap of it for the forum lmao. I used to store my cigars at 85 F and 72rH and they were pretty damn dry. Now at 70F 65rH they’re finally acceptable. Imagine keeping them at 85 50!

Lmao lmao!

Tobacco chips.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Colt45]

2 hours ago, Baccy said:

So basically the gist of this chart is that for a given humidity level, the moisture content in the air rises as the temperature falls, and as the temp rises moisture content falls??? ?

 

Leaving the chart out of it, warmer air can hold more water vapor than cooler air - so it's not necessarily that the humidity changes with temp, but that the air's ability to hold that moisture does. If you read what Ray said above - "If you lower temperature (and maintain rH constant) then tobacco does not get dryer, it gets wetter" - it makes sense.

My less than scientific way to look at it - let's say there is a nice warm day which gives way to a cool night. In the morning, dew on the grass, condensation on the car windshield. The cooler evening air can't hold as much vapor as the warmer air of the day.

 

 

 

[dobbs]

9 hours ago, PigFish said:

Kenny Roberts, F1 motorcycle world champion. A few decades ago, we both worked for Yamaha.

hell yeah! one of my motorcycle heroes, saw him wheelie the corkscrew at laguna seca before traction control.

-dobbs