Long Term Aging

[bpm32]

Lazy and idle Sunday question: Rob has mentioned a few times that he often gets asked what’s smoking good right now. What about the opposite—what do you all think would be good regular production cigars to put aside for 20 years? 30 years? 50 years? Assume for the purposes of discussion that you wouldn’t have access to those cigars over the decades, but that they’d be properly stored. Also, assume through some sorcery that you were guaranteed to be around to enjoy them.

[nKostyan]

Look at the 100 years aged CC smoking http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.ru&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&u=http://mycigars.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D4159.msg74066&xid=17259,1500004,15700019,15700124,15700126,15700149,15700186,15700191,15700201,15700237,15700242&usg=ALkJrhhT3tLdjG5--hJ0qf-TS_PMUWMZuA

(Post of 21 nov 2018)

Direct link: http://mycigars.org/index.php?topic=4159.msg74066#msg74066

[Derboesekoenig]

Link didn't work for me. What this comes down to is all theoretical and we could "what if" this all day long. Because of the tobacco strain changes circa 2000, I don't think that it's fair to compare the old strain tobacco to what we have now. They will not age the same. You can experiment with each cigar and see when they peak. MRN describes the aging process into different maturation processes, but again, this is with the old tobacco, and he explains that even some cigars then didn't reach all the maturation periods. Some do, some do not. I wish I knew the answer to this myself. There are certain cigars that are popular for long term aging (Part.898, 99% of Bolivar marca, ?), but we haven't much time to go off of with the new tobacco strains it seems. Not in the 20-25 year range or older. Guess we will wait and see.

Take everything with a grain of salt and experiment. There are much much more knowledgeable members here who can fill you in. I'd like to hear some of their opinions on this matter as well.

[nKostyan]

Aging is good for cigars of medium, medium-high and high strength. Aging allows you to complete the fermentation closely to 100% (the breakdown of organic compounds into inorganic) and remove the negative flavors, as well as make the flavors that all we like clean and clear. Cigars low strength normally with aging is lose the taste.

Aging, as far as I know, are considered 3+, 5+, 7+, 10 inclusive, all that is older-Vintage category. But I know of at least two examples where it took 15+ years to completely remove a negative taste:

Vegueros Especiales no.1 & 2

Sancho Pansa Sanchos

 

But it is also common that after 10, 20 years, the cigar passes the peak of the flavor bouquet and loses its taste.

 

 

 

[99call]

20 minutes ago, Derboesekoenig said:

There are certain cigars that are popular for long term aging (Part.898, 99% of Bolivar marca, ?), but we haven't much time to go off of with the new tobacco strains it seems

Hmmm I'm more inclined to think that current cigars are being blended to be approachable young.  HSA want you to buy your box, smoke it, and repeat. they don't want you to cherish and hold on to a box. 

Also, I think it cant hurt to tap into the Social media buzz of people doing ROTT reviews.   i.e "these are amazing, really excited for their future prospects"  should actually be translated as "these are amazing, I really need to smoke them before they fall off the cliff".  That positive buzz of young cigars, creates a wave of buying histeria, but I'm really not seeing it transfer into the aged product. 

Young Party 898s that i've tasted of late, are very mild (compared to what they still were in 2008).  Even if well stored, i think a current box of 898's will be past their best after as little as 6-7years......pretty sad really.   Great for people with no patience, but a shame for those who like to see the evolution of a box over 8-10yrs. 

[bpm32]

Well sure—it’s unanswerable. Like I said, idle chatter on a lazy weekend.

If setting aside high strength young cigars would be your best bet, I wonder if Non-Cubans might be the way to go?

[BJRPorter]

34 minutes ago, Derboesekoenig said:

Because of the tobacco strain changes circa 2000, I don't think that it's fair to compare the old strain tobacco to what we have now. They will not age the same.

This is the biggest take-away for me.

I’m sure Cuban growers are still adjusting to how the different seeds grow in the same soil as the seasons change.

[Derboesekoenig]

43 minutes ago, nKostyan said:

But it is also common that after 10, 20 years, the cigar passes the peak of the flavor bouquet and loses its taste.

I wonder if the new strains allow for 2nd and 3rd maturation periods like the old did? According to MRN, some cigars would move past one of these periods and not be at their prime, but wait many years until it enters that 2nd or 3rd period and it's glorious. What if there only exists the 1st period now and cigars may only get better within the initial 5-10 year period. Very interesting to think about. So many variables exist.

[dvickery]

2 hours ago, bpm32 said:

what do you all think would be good regular production cigars to put aside for 20 years? 30 years? 50 years

All of them

 

derrek

[Fugu]

Stands and falls with storage conditions. Before becoming too concerned about "strain-changes" or blend changes, this is the prime parameter on which to bestow a thought or two.

And not in any particular way related to the strength of a cigar.

[prodigy]

Stands and falls with storage conditions. Before becoming too concerned about "strain-changes" or blend changes, this is the prime parameter on which to bestow a thought or two.
And not in any particular way related to the strength of a cigar.

Let's not forget the age, experience, and the wisdom of the person providing their wisdom. Granted, I'm the exact same age, but I dont presume to know so much without assuming...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

[blakeLA]

Really excited to hear everyone's thoughts on this.  I've had some amazing vintage smokes and some that seem to have lost something.  I had a Cohiba Secreto the other day (PTR Mar 17) and it smoked way differently than when I got the box fresh.  A year and a half of age is nothing in the context discussed above.  Obviously the wrappers are already aged, but it had lost some of the chocolate bite that delineates them from the rest of the Cohiba line.  In some ways a more cohesive cigar with warm, rich notes of espresso and cocoa, but not as unique.  I was planning to age the rest of the box 4-5 years, but now I will probably try another in 3 months and if they've peaked, smoke 'em all.  Historically I've had good luck with Bolivars (particularly BBF), and the larger Partagas vitolas.  But I'm mostly curious to hear what the more seasoned members have to say about this.  Simply put, I have never had a collection of decades old cigars and haven't been doing this long enough to speak with any authority.  Members smarter than me, please lend some good advice!!

[99call]

11 minutes ago, Hutch said:

I’d offer the vitolas with the most ligero as having the most potential. 

Somewhere in Habana, there is a mountain of unused Ligero. Ha!   Hopefully they are holding it back to release La Esception as part of the regular lines.......Read (not gonna happen)

2013 LGCMDO no 2 was the last truly full bodied cigar i've enjoyed, (and the box could go another 10yrs easy). everything else has been mid or just over. 

[ayepatz]

17 hours ago, dvickery said:

All of them

 

derrek

This.^^

Something that often gets lost in the aging debate is the individual’s palate.

When I started smoking cigars, I was advised to smoke only Cuban cigars that had some age on them, from a minimum of three years. This very much informed my tastes, and my palate developed accordingly.

There are always exceptions of course, but, generally speaking, for my particular tastes, I do not enjoy younger Cuban cigars, and I do not enjoy NCs. Both seem rough and inelegant to my palate. I seek a gentler, more refined smoking experience.

Again, I must stress that this is purely a personal feeling, and I realise that many, if not most, FOH members may disagree with me.

I have enjoyed many cigars going back 30 years which, to my palate and for my tastes, still hit the mark. I suspect many other FOHers would find them past their best and lacking in flavour, but that is only to be expected if the individual in question’s taste is for the flavours exhibited in younger cigars.

If you enjoy aged cigars, I would follow @dvickery‘s advice and keep back some examples of all of them.

 

 

[Geaux]

I’m more interested in this secret sorcery for insuring 50 more years with the ability to enjoy a cigar at the end.... ??

[joeypots]

    Storage conditions have a huge effect on how well a Cigar ages. Duh. Some people get very technical and some people just put cigars in their original packaging in a some what air tight container like a cabinet humidor or a coolerdor. Temperature regulation is important. Keep the cigars below 70 degrees F to prevent beetle hatching. If you don't expose your cigars to a lot of fresh air and high temp they'll change over time. Other than that,  enjoy the process of figuring out what you like. Searching this forum you can find loads of info about aging and storing. 

   I'm partial to good quality regular production Cuban cigars and have found that 5 years is when most have lost the rough edge of youth and still have enough power to satisfy. Some are OK at 3 years and some take a bit longer than 5. It depends on the individual box.  I've been smoking Cuban cigars for something like 18 years and I'm still surprised by the change in the cigars as they age.

[Cayman17]

5 minutes ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Not sure I'd be able to age a cigar for that long, I'd get to antsy.  Wife and I have a young one on the way, and I plan on ordering a couple of boxes of my favorite cigars from the birth month and year, that I'm planning on putting away until their marriage day (assuming that is happening), along with a couple of cases of champagne. So there will be some 20+ years aged cigars and champagne at some point. I'll let y'all know how that goes in about 20 - 25 years, lol!

I would be more concerned about proper storage of the Champagne. At 20+ years those corks might degrade if they are not kept humidified. And Champagne darkens as it ages. Just FYI, not saying it cannot be done. It would be fun to try, but 20-25 years is a long time to store wine, especially if you do not have a high-grade humidified storage system. If I can keep a bottle of high-end Cabernet around for 6 years, I consider that a victory in my house. 

[Fugu]

16 hours ago, prodigy said:

Let's not forget the age, experience, and the wisdom of the person providing their wisdom. Granted, I'm the exact same age, but I dont presume to know so much without assuming...

Mate, a lot of it is, as you say, simple experience, and in essence - mostly opinion. As our friend Ray (the other one ) never tires to say, and rightfully so, your opinion is as good as my opinion in this regard, for even a long personal smoking history may be (self-)deceiving. Aging is a field, where truly hard facts are tricky to come by. That lies in the nature of things. My opinionated view  is for the most part formed on empirical, sometimes even on anecdotal evidence - well I have to say findings, as this exactly is not evidence. That is my "wisdom", a wisdom which cannot be replaced by another man's or woman's wisdom - as is holding vice versa. What we can do, is exchange ideas, share and discuss our personal 'wisdoms'.

In my comment above I was alluding to storage. That is, because you often hear people comment, cigars to be more forgiving than one would believe, or "don't overthink it". That is true to a part. Fresh and fairly young cigars are indeed quite forgiving. With further maturing this changes, and cigars become a more delicate fruit.

I am not dismissing any further effects here, and there are certainly cigars and blends suited for aging to a greater or lesser extent. And not least, some of that will also be up to personal preferences. But when it comes to aging - aging beyond the one-decade horizon -, then storage conditions become crucial. Because storage is cumulative in its effects. Crappy storage in year six can never again be made up for by top-notch storage in the 20+ years to follow. With the likelihood of periods of subpar storage increasing over time and with the number of hands a box went through. Cigars do not forget.

The question of long-term aging and vintage cigars is often looked at mainly in the light of strain changes and/or cigars having become accessible sooner. Strains and cultivars are +/- permanently changing. The terminal usage of original Corojo and Criollo, which is usually being alluded to as the "main event", happened well before y2k. Some of the best cigars we know and enjoy today, are found to have been boxed following 1997 (good info to be found on this forum). How come? Sure, there is a certain allure of pre-Castro cigars or original Criollo/Corojo cigars, and most certainly justified so. And were it just for rarity. But among all this, you almost never see a thorough consideration of storage and provenance, which is - at least for me - the true prime concern it this regard.

[BrightonCorgi]

42 minutes ago, Cayman17 said:

I would be more concerned about proper storage of the Champagne. At 20+ years those corks might degrade if they are not kept humidified. And Champagne darkens as it ages. Just FYI, not saying it cannot be done. It would be fun to try, but 20-25 years is a long time to store wine, especially if you do not have a high-grade humidified storage system. If I can keep a bottle of high-end Cabernet around for 6 years, I consider that a victory in my house. 

If the Champagne (depending on which ones) on its side it'll be fine assuming it's stored in a wine cellar.  I have a natural wine cellar (basement) with seasonal temp swings and the wine has been fine at 20 years old stored in that cellar.  I don't see any more or less seepage than I do from humidified wine cellars.  I may humidify the cellar some this winter.  I have two humidifiers that are idle; so why not? 

[BrightonCorgi]

24 minutes ago, FatherOfPugs said:

I've been able to keep some high end cabernets around for 10+ years and they drank very well when opened, hoping I can do the same with champagne. Been reading a lot about longer term storage, but I have a great wine fridge that I keep all my high-end bottles in and it seems to do the trick. The hard part is going to be how to store the amount of champagne I want to store. The cigars, I have no doubts or worries about aging them that long provided I can keep my hands off of them. 

I take it you do not have a basement in TX.  There's always a bigger fridge.  They're all the time on Craigslist.  Could dedicate one bedroom to both wine & cigars.

[bpm32]

8 hours ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Not sure I'd be able to age a cigar for that long, I'd get to antsy.  Wife and I have a young one on the way, and I plan on ordering a couple of boxes of my favorite cigars from the birth month and year, that I'm planning on putting away until their marriage day (assuming that is happening), along with a couple of cases of champagne. So there will be some 20+ years aged cigars and champagne at some point. I'll let y'all know how that goes in about 20 - 25 years, lol!

Fantastic. One of my college professors set aside a used Lotus and a container of ultra high-octane leaded gasoline for when his kid turned 16.

[Derboesekoenig]

2 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

Fantastic. One of my college professors set aside a used Lotus and a container of ultra high-octane leaded gasoline for when his kid turned 16.

Hope he had a good insurance policy on the kid as well

[bpm32]

1 minute ago, Derboesekoenig said:

Hope he had a good insurance policy on the kid as well

ON his kid or FOR his kid??

[Derboesekoenig]

10 minutes ago, bpm32 said:

ON his kid or FOR his kid??

oh definitely on his kid hahaha

 

4 minutes ago, Jal154 said:

Great......in 25 years I’ll be 83! That’s approximately 5-7 years away from having some Haitian woman pushing me around in a wheelchair hoping she’ll let me smack her ass once in a while. ???? But I’ll check back here to see how those cigars smoke!

I'll take them off your hands! Haha dibs

 

*Who here has the largest aged collection anyhow? I'm talking pre-Castro to 1980s

Maybe they can chime in with some personal experiences.

[BrightonCorgi]

1 hour ago, Jal154 said:

Ok, so you age a box 3,5,7 years. For me 3-5 years is plenty. Can you imagine patiently leaving a box down for 15-20 years only to find that most of the box contain plugged cigars. That would be horrible. Anytime getting plugged cigars is horrible but looking forward to a box after 15-20 years.......ouch. And we all know anything is possible with Cuba’s amazing quality control! ??

That only happens to me if the first two are plugged and I forgot about the box.  I will have had a similar box or they're obviously well rolled if I am seriously plan the long haul.