Ken Gargett

can someone explain brexit?

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i have no idea what on earth is going on with this. can someone please explain it to me.

it was summed up for me, the morning after, by an interview with some really dimwitted woman from the streets - "well, if i had known it would get up, i never would have voted yes". 

it seems the greatest own goal in history. but it has been a very long time since i lived over there so i have obviously lost touch. i just keep thinking, whether you liked her or not, maggie T would never have allowed it to descend into the utter incompetent mess that may is now wallowing in (and she seems to have no clue how to get out). my understanding is that she was very anti-brexit until she became PM and then decided to be very pro-brexit (yes, you read it here first, a politician flipflopping). 

but this morning, i read that one of the most ardent supporters of brexit, some mining squillionaire and britain's richest man, sir jimbo ratcliffe, has decided to up and off, with his cadre of loyal offsiders and company (we'll leave aside how he has been pressuring officials to dump environmental controls so he can expand the coffers). to europe. because it will save him four billion (yes, billion, not million). now, so would i, but i was not behind the brexit push. nice to see that his money is nowhere near his mouth. and hopefully he'll take those scruples which allowed him to accept a knighthood, his nation's highest honour, with him to europe. he fights hard for brexit and then abandons the country? takes the money to europe and leaves all his countrymen behind. what a prince!

what on earth am i missing? how is this allowed to go on? our idiot politicians are bad enough but this mob are professional imbeciles. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

 

what on earth am i missing? how is this allowed to go on? our idiot politicians are bad enough but this mob are professional imbeciles. 

 

What is the problem?

It is simply a classic example of  democracy at its finest. 

The quality of politicians (anywhere) is only a mirror of the electorate. 

Why bleat? *

 

* I was watching the news last night where people were complaining about the cost of the recent Royal visit (Henry/Richard/Chamberlain?...clueless). 

  This country had a chance via referendum to go republican. It voted for the monarchy. 

  in the end there is no use complaining that Princess Primadona cost us $400K.   We just need to suck it up. 

 

 

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Just now, El Presidente said:

What is the problem?

It is simply a classic example of  democracy at its finest. 

The quality of politicians (anywhere) is only a mirror of the electorate. 

Why bleat? 

not bleating. just utterly befuddled.

there was a time when i would have agree - get the politicians we deserve etc - but i have been thinking about.

can anyone name a country on earth where they really believe that the people have the politicians they deserve? is any country truly that bad?

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  Pick 50 people and you'd get 50 different reasons. I think it's accumulation of a few things:

Political apathy, the failure of the benefits of globalisation to filter down to the average person in the street, overarching political control from the EU, a lack of transparency in the EU in regard to corruption/the book keeping, the scapegoating of the EU by UK politicians on all sides to cover up their own ineptitudes, a politically driven austerity in the UK driving down living standards, it goes on.

 The list is pretty endless, I personally think in the end it really came down to numerous PMs kicking the can down the road when people were rightly concerned about closer political integration without being first consulted. The Irish being told to go back and vote again on the Lisbon Treaty until they came back with the right vote didn't help. Certainly how the Greeks were treated during their crisis didn't win over any friends either.

 But yes I think it's mostly the building up of resentment over the years of not having a say. Blair could have called a vote on the Lisbon Treaty and comfortably won it and the issue would have been done. A frustrated public eventually stuck the fingers up at what the political class wanted regardless of the consequence. The level of distrust, disconnect and downright anger at politicians over here has grown at an alarming rate since the Expenses Scandal. Combine it with them giving themselves pay rises while voting for massive public spending cuts and things like libraries shutting, food banks opening, disabled people being driven into the street from having their money cut at the same time as bailing out the big failing banks just added to the feeling.

  The government and the EU wanted the result to stay in. The government got shafted because of above reasons, the EU didn't help themselves with threats then mocking soundbites. It seemed to be a two fingered salute to both.

  I think either result could be made a decent success if there was sufficient political skill and ability. Unfortunately that's been lacking for a very long time, all over the world it seems.

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1 minute ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  Pick 50 people and you'd get 50 different reasons. I think it's accumulation of a few things:

Political apathy, the failure of the benefits of globalisation to filter down to the average person in the street, overarching political control from the EU, a lack of transparency in the EU in regard to corruption/the book keeping, the scapegoating of the EU by UK politicians on all sides to cover up their own ineptitudes, a politically driven austerity in the UK driving down living standards, it goes on.

 The list is pretty endless, I personally think in the end it really came down to numerous PMs kicking the can down the road when people were rightly concerned about closer political integration without being first consulted. The Irish being told to go back and vote again on the Lisbon Treaty until they came back with the right vote didn't help. Certainly how the Greeks were treated during their crisis didn't win over any friends either.

 But yes I think it's mostly the building up of resentment over the years of not having a say. Blair could have called a vote on the Lisbon Treaty and comfortably won it and the issue would have been done. A frustrated public eventually stuck the fingers up at what the political class wanted regardless of the consequence. The level of distrust, disconnect and downright anger at politicians over here has grown at an alarming rate since the Expenses Scandal. Combine it with them giving themselves pay rises while voting for massive public spending cuts and things like libraries shutting, food banks opening, disabled people being driven into the street from having their money cut at the same time as bailing out the big failing banks just added to the feeling.

  The government and the EU wanted the result to stay in. The government got shafted because of above reasons, the EU didn't help themselves with threats then mocking soundbites. It seemed to be a two fingered salute to both.

  I think either result could be made a decent success if there was sufficient political skill and ability. Unfortunately that's been lacking for a very long time, all over the world it seems.

ta for all that. it all does make sense. in a way.

perhaps i should be more concerned/interested in what happens now. 

it seems that there will be no 2nd vote. so it will go ahead.

it seems that europe is hardly in the frame of mind for concessions so Britain fits in or cops it. where does that leave them? 

and if a future govt decides back we all go, very hard to imagine europe would not say only if you pay for it all. 

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The seeds of Brexit were sown back when John Major signed the Maastricht Treaty which lead to the creation of the EU in 1992. Unlike most other European countries, no referendum on the matter was held and signing the treaty wasn't even in the Tory manifesto.

Tony Blair later watered those seeds by later signing the Lisbon treaty which lead to yet further European integration. Unlike Major, Blair promised a referendum but never delivered it and unilaterally signed the treaty.

If either of these treaties had been put to a vote then we wouldn't be in this mess today.

Theresa May is just trying to deliver what the British electorate voted for and is doing a bad job of it. But I seriously doubt any of the 649 other MPs could do a better job. In all my years I've never known the UK to have such bad politicians.

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What’s Vlad going to do with all his cash....promoting right wing nut boxes and fascism in the western world is one of his favorite pastimes 

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2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

it seems that europe is hardly in the frame of mind for concessions so Britain fits in or cops it. where does that leave them? 

 

Going round with their hat in hand to all the former Commonwealth countries, asking if they'd like to re-join the empire?

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The decision on Brexit was made by the elites, the rest was a competent manipulation of public opinion before the vote. It was foolish to call a referendum without understanding what the result would be. Do you still believe in fairy tales and Santa Claus?

Why did UK decide to leave the EU? The EU as well as China is an economic competitor for the USA and the pressure will increase. UK decided to switch to the orbit of the United States. Now the main task of the UK government - to minimize losses from Brexit. Domestic and foreign policy is formed around this goal. Also, UK is doing its best to prove its loyalty to the USA.

 

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Only rational explanation I can see is xenophobia. 'Get those foreigners out of here'/'they took our jobs!'

Same nonsense we're dealing with here in the states.

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Cameron thought there was no way in hell the referendum would ever pass, and that a remain vote would strengthen his political hand.  Big "Oops!" there.  As my old Dad always says, "Never gamble with something you can't afford to lose."  Now the U.K. is not only struggling with Brexit, but risking Scotland and Northern Ireland too.  A breakup of the UK would be as much a disaster for the EU as for the U.K., but the EU is just as scared of making exits look easy.

Personally, I think it was immigration that really tipped the scales here.  Not that it should have, but countries in the interior of Europe were getting frustrated with poor border control at the peripheries, and without a strong Federally sponsored defense authority, the whole EU was at the mercy of their outlying members.  

In addition to that, the UK always seemed to be the member that was struggling to pull the EU to the right, whereas France and Germany always wanted to turn left.  That a gross simplification of course, but I think that an EU without the UK might have a more 'common' point of view to it, and be a purer expression of what the remaining members want (except for the banking bit).  From an American point of view, the EU is much better with the UK in it, but we don't get a vote!

It's remarkable how 'stoopid' 🤓 an electorate can be.  Good thing this sort of thing never happens in the U.S.A.! 😜 

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Who’s willing to bet against that Scotland will leave the UK and re-join EU as a sovereign country, if Brexit happens? I’ll put up a nice fiver :)

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Who’s willing to bet against that Scotland will leave the UK and re-join EU as a sovereign country, if Brexit happens? I’ll put up a nice fiver default_smile.png

I don't think that's gonna happen. The whole question is what price England will offer to Scotland.

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It’s a tragedy, and as Ken says, one of the greatest political own goals in history. It’s like jumping out of a boat in a storm because you don’t like the company. Or literally cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Taxi drivers in Africa now say to me ‘we thought you Brits were clever... what has happened to you?’ Hard to believe we are really going to do it.

At the same time I can understand why many people used the vote to assert themselves against things they don’t like. Distant metropolitan elites, foreigners, a modern world that is hard to understand. A sense of missing out and being ignored. They were told an attractively simple story about going back to the past - essentially back to colonial Victorian Britain when we were a world power. And they certainly did get to assert themselves for a moment.

The remain campaign was sh*t, essentially telling people that the sky would fall in if they voted to leave. There was no positive story about one of the most successful projects for peace, democracy, human rights and prosperity the world has ever seen. Europe is still a magnet for the world because of its safety, rule of law and deep institutions, high standard of living, and opportunities. Many places in Britain that specifically depend on Europe for their success voted to leave.**

Brexit has poisoned the well of British politics and society. It will be very difficult to heal the divisions it has caused, not least because many of the problems that motivated it (like regional economic decline) will be made worse by leaving the EU. The world isn’t going to get simpler because of Brexit. The Brexiteers are fully in ‘Betrayal’ mode, and that is a highly toxic substance with a long half-life.

I am particularly furious with the Labour leadership, which could have averted this at many times but has chosen to facilitate exit. Corbyn - that great paradigm of truth and virtue - has lied consistently about his position. He has always wanted to leave, because he sees Europe as a capitalist conspiracy. So the country is dragged over the edge by a coalition of the hard right and the hard left.

 

** Perhaps the most extraordinary example is Sunderland, where Nissan has a huge car factory. The factory was built in the 80s at a time of terrible economic depression in the North East of England, and became by far the largest manufacturing employer in the region. Cars built in the UK avoid the European tariff barrier for Japanese cars, so there was a strong incentive for Nissan to manaufacture here. Most of the vehicles produces are exported to Europe - and they face no tariffs as they cross the North Sea. Sunderland of course voted for Brexit. Last year the Japanese govt negotiated away the tariff for importing manufactured vehicles from Japan into Europe. And now Nissan has announced it will not be going ahead with manufacturing its latest model in Sunderland. The sky doesn’t fall in all at once, but there is no doubt that many of the people who will be hurt worst by Brexit are those who voted for it.

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7 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

can someone please explain it to me

I cannot recommend watching Adam Curtis's "Century of Self" series, highly enough.   It covers the rise of Edward Bernay's and how his work in the advertising world, basically the move from selling a product upon its merits as a commodity, i.e. this bar of soap will make you cleaner.  to this bar of soap will make you more successful. 

Is then charts how the political world took on board his model, to pervert the running of elections, and to engineer votes. 

 

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As a proud labour voter, I'm horrified by Jeremy Corbyn.   Because the London 'Momentum' wing of the Labour party has somehow seized power, and now are effectively sitting as a socialist uber left wing party,  there is a massive disconnect with people like myself in the North, who would consider themselves  "Old Labour". 

Sadly as many parts of the North, are effectively seen as back waters by the capital, and layers and layers of Austerity and lack of investment were piled on these areas.  When the vote came around, they were told, by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, etc, that the hole in their wallet was caused by immigrants etc etc. when in actual fact it was (as it always is) the Tory party. 

Large swathes of the poor areas of the country voted for Brexit, in a mindset of, "how can it get any worse".   David Cameron underestimated how fatigued and despondent he had made the poor, and it massively back fired. 

Personally I wish London would disappear into the sea, along with all its politicians, and its disconnected values. 

 

 

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I have a good mate 90 minutes outside of London. 300 employees, successful manufacturing business. He started the business 12 years ago and exports throughout the EU as well a major player in his industry domestically. 

He has no idea what direction to go. How will his exports be treated. 

His bankers have no idea and so have taken to banking prime position in a crisis......foetal. Do nothing, toss platitudes. repeat. 

He knows a majority of his employees voted for an exit. Their choice and nothing wrong with that. There is a likelihood that they have voted themselves out of a job. They will blame the pollies. The pollies will disappear in the next election. A new group of muppets gets elected by muppets. repeat. 

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Worth pointing out that Scotland did not vote to leave, nor, funnily enough, did my constituency of Surrey South West, both with remain votes of well over 60%.

Our Member of Parliament, Jeremy Hunt, the current Foreign Secretary, nonetheless voted in favour of leaving when the vote was put to Parliament, despite the wishes of the majority in his constituency, and he was by no means alone in voting contrary to the wishes of the voters he is supposed to represent.

If the whole Brexit debacle has proven anything, it’s that our archaic system of government is simply no longer fit for purpose.

Something that seems to get lost in all of this is that it is, effectively, a large part of England who wanted to leave the EU, not the whole of the UK. And, because Theresa May, in her hubris and naivety, called a snap General Election with the hope of strengthening the Tory majority, and, in failing to do so, then had to lean on a Northern Irish party in order to form a government, has had the effect of magnifying the issue of the Irish border to the detriment of the rest.

Make no mistake, if the UK stumbles out of the EU without a deal, that will give endless ammunition to those who seek to break up the UK, and what seems like a bad situation now will surely worsen.

It is not the “will of the British people” to leave the EU. It is the will of a quarter of the total population, the vast majority of whom live in England. (Scotland has roughly the same population as London, another area, which, ironically, voted against leaving.)

The system is broken, and there is nobody amongst the ranks of our current politicians who stands a chance of uniting the country one way or the other.

It is, to quote Malcolm Tucker from The Thick of It, an “omnishambles”.

 

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My friend's sister has just packed up the family and moved from London, where they have lived for more than 10 years (they also took dual citizenship), to start a new life in Paris. They have done their own Brexit.

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5 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

The pollies will disappear in the next election. A new group of muppets gets elected by muppets. repeat. 

Whatever happens regarding the vote.  To me the important thing is something must be done to hold the process accountable. Whether it be America or England or wherever, "the people" cannot continue to be contended in having their votes, collated, manufactured, polled, mis-represented, fudged etc etc. 

Social media needs to be unhitched from political voting,   its sinister, and morally bankrupt

I heard the other day.  Facebook were paying 13yr olds $20 dollars a month (with consent from their weirdo parents) to hand over their rights the all of their online life.   What a disgrace!!   Mark Zuckerberg needs to go to prison ASAP. 

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5 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

to start a new life in Paris

I hope they've brought their Hi Vis, and gas masks

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9 minutes ago, ayepatz said:

quote Malcolm Tucker from The Thick of It, an “omnishambles”.

I was hoping for something more punchy from his canon of works

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8 minutes ago, 99call said:

I heard the other day.  Facebook were paying 13yr olds $20 dollars a month (with consent from their weirdo parents) to hand over their rights the all of their online life.   What a disgrace!!   Mark Zuckerberg needs to go to prison ASAP. 

I agree! I would have only offered them $5 for their worthless online lives.

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