can someone explain brexit?

[Webbo]

24 minutes ago, 99call said:

I'll start where you finished off.  For many of us in the UK, the vote itself was the result of some internal Conservative identity crisis, that Cameron thought he could solve but failed.    As a country why were we ever exposed to this jeopardy, just so one political party could get their inner turmoil 'resolved'...........yep that went well. 

As I have pointed out before. Political campaigning is now rotten to its core, and this is largely the legacy of how Edward Bernays has woven advertising and voter profiling into the process.   Long long ago, political candidates stood for something, in the hope it was right, and that people would be inspired to vote for them.   Now the likes of Dominic Cummings are using social media and profiling to dupe and coerce the voting public, triggering them on false claims, so they vote in a manner they wish them too.

For instance look as this shameful video where an independent scrutiny committee is questioning Dominic Cummings on why vote leave had created campaign leaflets to look like NHS leaflets,  then get tory volunteers to hand them out in hospitals.     This guy is the oiliest snake in the grass you could ever be unlucky enough to meet.  And Now he's in Boris's cabinet. 

Ken, if someone has access to a decent standard of education and they squander it, then they are Stupid.   Sadly however, part of the class system the Tories seek to impose, (and have done so very effectively) is high levels of eductions for the elite, and poor education for the poor.  The poor have fallen for the deceit that all their woes are the fault of immigrants etc, when the reality is, is the Tory government have simply not invested in their communities for generations.    Their inability to discern the different between shit and Shinola,  is not laziness or idiocy, it that the ruling classes want them in a weak position,  want them easily led.  It's by design. 

As a side note Dominic Cummings is a very odd character in the fact he is on record as being anti the establishment, and anti Tory 

“People think, and by the way I think most people are right: ‘The Tory party is run by people who basically don’t care about people like me.’

“That is what most people in the country have thought about the Tory party for decades. I know a lot of Tory MPs and I am sad to say the public is basically correct. Tory MPs largely do not care about these poorer people. They don’t care about the NHS. And the public has kind of cottoned on to that.”

What Boris is doing may work, but that is not the point. There is no gambit for him or his kind. If he runs the UK over the cliff, he will not lose a penny, indeed a UK without regulations or workers rights, will benefit the rich.    He wins both ways.  But if he has calculated incorrectly, the poor suffer the consequences. The likes or Rees Mogg are spinning some entrepreneurial fantasy, where we can all get rich, once the shackles of Europe are thrown off.  The only problem is he has zero understanding or empathy, of how being from money, allows you to exploit your stature on others less fortunate. he doesn't know what it's like to have the wolf at the door.  If we were to believe Rees Mogg, the poor will now be able to rise up, and reap a fortune built on hard work,  the reality is however they will probably be more exposed to be working in a zero hours contract, in a factory (likely owned by a Tory), profiteering of weak labour regulations.    This is the kind of man who looks back at the industrial revolution, like it was all sweetness and light.   Yep never mind the child labour in the cotton mills.

This is the most repulsive thing about his kind, is that he feels as if he is manor born to take such a risk with the country.  Like his whole life it doesn't matter if he buggers up over and over again,  the social safety net of his class, will ensure his failures will not be punished.  

This whole mess should lead to an end to unregulated political campaigning,  they should be limited to 1 leaflet, and 1 party political broadcast each. the content of which should be governed by an independent scrutiny committee.   I say this of both the leave and remain, they both had falsehoods in their campaigns, and they both had funding violations.   

All this, exactly. Well put.

[CaptainQuintero]

  I don't know about others but the news is brilliant at the moment, haven't even watched much Netflix this year because of it!

  I think regardless of from what side you're on, the best thing is how energised the population had become about politics. Political apathy was (deservedly) at record highs before the referendum, now passion is everywhere and it can only be good for going forward. There's some utter gobshites living in magical echo chamber dreamlands on both sides, but overall people have started reading into policies and how the system works. Politicians on the whole have been shown up (again) just how utterly useless, self serving and incompetent they are across the board and it looks like there will be a huge political realignment coming.

  There's no hiding space for local and national politicians, they have to come out and show what they are made of and be judged by it. It's great.

What's that old Chinese curse? 

"May you live in interesting times.."

  

[99call]

19 minutes ago, CaptainQuintero said:

  I don't know about others but the news is brilliant at the moment, haven't even watched much Netflix this year because of it!

  I think regardless of from what side you're on, the best thing is how energised the population had become about politics. Political apathy was (deservedly) at record highs before the referendum, now passion is everywhere and it can only be good for going forward. There's some utter gobshites living in magical echo chamber dreamlands on both sides, but overall people have started reading into policies and how the system works. Politicians on the whole have been shown up (again) just how utterly useless, self serving and incompetent they are across the board and it looks like there will be a huge political realignment coming.

  There's no hiding space for local and national politicians, they have to come out and show what they are made of and be judged by it. It's great.

What's that old Chinese curse? 

"May you live in interesting times.."

  

Yes,   exciting bad politics,  is better than boring bad politics.........but cant help but feel this is setting our goals very low

Which ever way the cookie crumbles.  I hope this mess will give birth to a much more simple era of politics, where people stand for something, and we vote for them.   I know politicians have always lied, but this has reached an extreme, whereby nothing will ever get done.

The era of hypernormalisation has to end, or we are all scuppered. 

[CaptainQuintero]

Just now, 99call said:

Yes,   exciting bad politics,  is better than boring bad politics.........but cant help but feel this is setting our goals very low

Which ever way the cookie crumbles.  I hope this mess will give birth to a much more simple era of politics, where people stand for something, and we vote for them.   I know politicians have always lied, but this has reached an extreme, whereby nothing will ever get done.

The era of hypernormalisation has to end, or we are all scuppered. 

  I think to be honest the expenses scandal showed our politicians up for what they are vastly more than this whole palava. I'm still shocked how that was brushed under the carpet, then they gave themselves a raise!

  I tend to think that it was one of the foundation stones that lead to where we are now. If anyone found fiddling expenses had been banned from standing for public office ever again, I think a lot of the anger/mistrust would have gone and there wouldn't have been any voting done out of spite in any referendum.

  Would even a referendum taken place in fact? UKIP was essentially a protest vote party that took off into the mainstream after the scandal. If it had been dealt with properly at the time, no more UKIP, no pressure on Cameron to call the referendum to neuter UKIP

[Philc2001]

I asked up board:

What is motivating Brexit? 

On 8/30/2019 at 12:06 AM, El Presidente said:

Not being dictated to by Europe Inc.  

Switzerland seems to manage just fine operating outside of the EU. 

 

On 8/30/2019 at 12:07 AM, Fuzz said:

What is motivating Brexit? Many in the UK felt sick and tired of the EU dictating to them what they can and can't do.

I'm sure this is all steeped in some legit grievances, but what is uniquely being forced on the UK that does not also apply to the other 27 EU states? The UK kept to the sterling, and didn't adopt Schengen if I am not mistaken, so maybe the UK was never really committed to fully integrating into the EU. Maybe it's economic, I guess none of the EU states were thrilled to cover Greece's, Italy's or Cyprus's debt. The US has some poorer states too. But the EU's $22 trillion GDP is right up there with China, so there are some benefits it seems, hence this is possibly why so many are fearful of crashing out without a deal.

I googled to see if I could find the cause, but it seems most writers seem to think immigrants and refugees, the Greek debt crisis and a populist agenda are the largest factors in the decision to leave.

After 3 defeats in as many days, BJ seems to be losing his party and his Brexit fight. He tried to call for a snap election and more members of his party defected, and there seems to be  significant opposition to no-deal brexit, even within his own party. So what is BJ really trying to do? Damn the torpedoes, leave at any cost? Or is he bluffing? 

The original referendum passed with a 51.9% majority, which seems like a rather thin margin. Given the three years of haggling and indecision, it seems reasonable to me to give the voting public a chance to decide (a) if they still support brexit and (b) if they support a no-deal brexit. But it seems BJ and brexiteers are fearful of another referendum, so it tends to call their motives into question. 

[El Presidente]

26 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

 

The original referendum passed with a 51.9% majority, which seems like a rather thin margin. Given the three years of haggling and indecision, it seems reasonable to me to give the voting public a chance to decide (a) if they still support brexit and (b) if they support a no-deal brexit. But it seems BJ and brexiteers are fearful of another referendum, so it tends to call their motives into question. 

it is a crap sandwich. 

So if another referendum is held and say the reverse margin emerges. Near half the country raises the middle finger and says " so much for democracy"  How do you ever recover?

I empathise with the plight of my mates there. On both sides of the fence. 

[Ken Gargett]

some might say that this is karma. england tried to take our Ashes (apols to my welsh, irish and scottish mates). i know they failed but they tried. and in the past they have occasionally succeeded. hence, karma. 

a fair-minded man might say, but you gave us eddie jones. isn't that retribution enough? and indeed, you'd think so. but no! 

more seriously, has any nation ever shot itself in the foot more appallingly than this? 

and in respect of another vote given three years of this idiocy, well you think if it narrowly goes the other way it will be all sunshine and light? it will be more of the same. 

[Homer]

Can someone explain brexit? The answer is NO.

[Emaresee]

On 2/18/2019 at 12:50 PM, 99call said:

Seven Labour MPs just quit, to set up as independants.   I hope this trickle turns into a flood, to the point that John MacDonnald, Jeremy Corbyn, and Dianne Abbot are left out in the cold. 

Come on 'Old Labour'! lets get are act together and right the ship!

we could so with some old fashioned conservatives too... run out all of the extremes.... and make sure the house is representative of 'normal' people across the land.... I don't recognise anything in common within almost any of the politicians ....

[Emaresee]

4 hours ago, Philc2001 said:

I asked up board:

What is motivating Brexit? 

 

I'm sure this is all steeped in some legit grievances, but what is uniquely being forced on the UK that does not also apply to the other 27 EU states? The UK kept to the sterling, and didn't adopt Schengen if I am not mistaken, so maybe the UK was never really committed to fully integrating into the EU. Maybe it's economic, I guess none of the EU states were thrilled to cover Greece's, Italy's or Cyprus's debt. The US has some poorer states too. But the EU's $22 trillion GDP is right up there with China, so there are some benefits it seems, hence this is possibly why so many are fearful of crashing out without a deal.

I googled to see if I could find the cause, but it seems most writers seem to think immigrants and refugees, the Greek debt crisis and a populist agenda are the largest factors in the decision to leave.

After 3 defeats in as many days, BJ seems to be losing his party and his Brexit fight. He tried to call for a snap election and more members of his party defected, and there seems to be  significant opposition to no-deal brexit, even within his own party. So what is BJ really trying to do? Damn the torpedoes, leave at any cost? Or is he bluffing? 

The original referendum passed with a 51.9% majority, which seems like a rather thin margin. Given the three years of haggling and indecision, it seems reasonable to me to give the voting public a chance to decide (a) if they still support brexit and (b) if they support a no-deal brexit. But it seems BJ and brexiteers are fearful of another referendum, so it tends to call their motives into question. 

there is little logic and reason at all.

Bercow is a curious arbiter but a hugely principled man on parliamentary process. 

those who 'want' to exit are struggling to articulate why. They struggle to identify the grievance the the EU has made to them, beyond immigration. BUT if you then look at spending and so forth, its not immigration which has caused the shortfalls in public service that they often cite. In almost all circumstances the areas where they feel aggrieved, are areas the UK has set the standard. 

The EU legislation on tax is a clear motivator for the prime architects of brexit.... there seems to be a middle-class outrage about this. The 'working man' seems willfully oblivious as they dont have a dog in that fight, and are happy to continue blaming EU bureaucracy, immigration and having halcyon images of life in the Blitz... we were once great and we will be great again.... MAGA etc... 

it all makes my head hurt... there is little clarity on anything other than the inconsistent morals of those at the forefront of it all!

[Webbo]

Recent events have been almost unbelievable, we are in the shit here make no mistake. One of the best ways I could highlight how crazed things are is the incident last week with Jacob Rees Mogg. For those who have never heard of him check your google (and then check the date on your computer to reassure yourself it’s not the year 1911). He has managed, pretty much by default, to arrive at a position of leader of the house and last week used parliamentary privilege (that means you can say whatever you want in the House of Commons without risk of liable) to compare the doctor whom the government employed to write the paper on the medical implications of Brexit with the disgraced doctor Wakefield (the charlatan who claimed, incorrectly and without true basis, that immunisation could ne linked to autism and thus help fuel the rise of the anti-vax morons). 

The paper indicating BREXIT could result in increased fatalities due to pharmaceutical shortages was commissioned by the Government but much to their horror was leaked to the press. Now they say the document is false news/ worse case/the last governments/ etc etc and the Doctor who wrote it should not be believed. Mogg (a man with zero medical or scientific knowledge to add to his other lengthy list of non-abilities) then dismisses him in the house, insults him and claims his report is in effect bullshit. Dr Nicholl then called out Mogg to repeat this outside of the house where he could be held accountable under law and sued for deformation, surprise surprise Mogg has refused and offered some mealy mouthed apology. 

The reason I highlighted this one incident is to show how the political elite of the UK believe that they can say or do anything they like irrespective of the facts and evidence. “F*** facts, F*** science, F*** proof, F*** everything except what you are told by your betters” is their mantra. Their unfounded opinions and views are what matter, nothing else, they believe they are born to rule but for them rules simply do not apply. Shame on them all....

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/health-and-care/health-professionals/news/106325/jacob-rees-mogg-under-fire-disgraceful

[Philski]

On 9/10/2019 at 5:48 AM, El Presidente said:

it is a crap sandwich. 

So if another referendum is held and say the reverse margin emerges. Near half the country raises the middle finger and says " so much for democracy"  How do you ever recover?

I empathise with the plight of my mates there. On both sides of the fence. 

It is indeed.  The reasons for Brexit are complex, but the vote supported it.  There are only three options open now:

- Article 50 is revoked (cue outrage); doesn't matter if Parliament somehow overturns it, or it is achieved through another referendum

- May's Withdrawal Agreement (which the EU refuse to renegotiate) is somehow passed through Parliament; won't happen, as it's a complete piece of crap

- We leave with no-deal - this IS Boris's tactic, as it's the only way to get the EU back to negotiate properly; VERY tough to get through, but he's trying damn hard

That last option is negotiating with big boy trousers on, and Boris and Cummings realise it's the only way to break the deadlock, scary as it might be for many.

(PS: anyone know how to stop double spacing in my posts?!)

[Lotusguy]

On 9/10/2019 at 6:48 AM, Philski said:

It is indeed.  The reasons for Brexit are complex, but the vote supported it.  There are only three options open now:

- Article 50 is revoked (cue outrage); doesn't matter if Parliament somehow overturns it, or it is achieved through another referendum

- May's Withdrawal Agreement (which the EU refuse to renegotiate) is somehow passed through Parliament; won't happen, as it's a complete piece of crap

- We leave with no-deal - this IS Boris's tactic, as it's the only way to get the EU back to negotiate properly; VERY tough to get through, but he's trying damn hard

That last option is negotiating with big boy trousers on, and Boris and Cummings realise it's the only way to break the deadlock, scary as it might be for many.

(PS: anyone know how to stop double spacing in my posts?!)

I honestly believe the EU is done negotiating and it's take it or leave it at this point.

[Ken Gargett]

28 minutes ago, Lotusguy said:

I honestly believe the EU is done negotiating and it's take it or leave it at this point.

it is a good point. all we always hear about is the british perspective but you have to think the europeans must be sick to death of all this. 

britain seems to think it is up to it whether it leaves with a deal or no-deal. i reckon the europeans must be close to saying just bugger off and take what we give you. 

[Philc2001]

1 minute ago, Lotusguy said:

I honestly believe the EU is done negotiating and it's take it or leave it at this point.

I found this paper on the topic rather insightful: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-brexit-cultural-resentment-versus-economic-grievances

[Philski]

33 minutes ago, Philc2001 said:

I found this paper on the topic rather insightful: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/publications/understanding-brexit-cultural-resentment-versus-economic-grievances

?Interesting and exhaustive.  I don't know anyone in the UK who's navel gazing to this degree, tbh, but can understand an observer's point of view

[Philski]

V. sorry if this too jingoistic, happy to have it deleted!  

Great tune.

 

[Fugu]

On 9/12/2019 at 2:25 AM, Lotusguy said:

I honestly believe the EU is done negotiating and it's take it or leave it at this point.

Yup, my take also, time to say goodbye.

On 8/30/2019 at 9:52 AM, 99call said:

 This guy is the oiliest snake in the grass you could ever be unlucky enough to meet.  And Now he's in Boris's cabinet.  .

Now, this bloke is a disgrace, to speak it out clearly. A depressing shame to see Britain be ruled by the likes of him and Johnson.

[99call]

The cruelest truth of all these shinanigans is the major problem the super right Tories and the ERG have with beauracratic, high handed, backroom dealing types in the EU Brussels offices is it's cutting in of their grift.   They're  like "That's my job"

[peanutpete]

explain Brexit? simple people believed the lies in the right wing press over the last 30+ years (if you dot think this is true look at the study about the sun newspaper not being sold in Liverpool and how they vote) which is ok because we all get taking in at some point in our lives or people or people don't like immigrants