Aging Bordeaux and other varietals, show me and request for discussion and advice

[DeskSmkr]

Show me how you age your wine!

Or can we discuss reasonable budgets for my ideas?

I've recently become aware of the enjoyment of complexity of time softened and matured red wine, particularly Bordeaux.  I'd like to collect, age, and drink red wines including first, second, and third growths - as well as less known grand crus, wines from Puglia Italy, and new discoveries that I like. White wine can be included but no more than 10%.

I'd like to enjoy the finest Bordeaux at least yearly, in addition to more frequent consumption of wine that is more suited for near term, or less aging.  I guess I'll live another 40 years.  

Realizing I have gotten a late start, am not inheriting a cache of Bordeaux to continue adding to, and have finite money to spend, how do I get started? What is a reasonable yearly budget? How do I optimally store these treasures?  

I have a wine fridge but that's been converted to cigar storage so I'm starting with almost nothing.

And I'm posting in Wine Beer Spirits, but wonder if posting in The Water Hole forum would be a better idea?

[BrightonCorgi]

Well, how many bottles do you plan to drink a month?  Most divide their wine buying into short (ready to drink now), mid term (2-10 years) and long haul wines (more than 10 years).  If you spend equally on all, you should be covered as many of the drink now's could be priced less than the long haul wines.  You should consider buying futures of your favorite Bordeaux as many retailers offer great pricing and there will be no stories on how the wine was stored until you get it.

For mature wines now, try a wine auction.  Not sure your locale, but there are many wine auctions.  You need to know what you are doing though.  I would recommend researching each wine that is a consideration to make sure recent reviews show the wine still drinking fine.  Some go for greater wines in off years than unheard of wines in great years.  Everyone has different means and what would be a yearly budget for me could be a weekend of drinking for you...  Seeing how you are looking for 1st-3rd growth's; you must be doing things right!

[selpo]

Great advice above. Also, keep in mind that you need a stable temp and humidity controlled environment to age wine as well.

[Colt45]

On 3/1/2019 at 10:48 PM, DeskSmkr said:

I've recently become aware of the enjoyment of complexity of time softened and matured red wine, particularly Bordeaux.  I'd like to collect, age, and drink red wines including first, second, and third growths - as well as less known grand crus, wines from Puglia Italy, and new discoveries that I like.

My only suggestion would be that if this is something relatively new, to not invest too heavily in one country/region/zone - until you're more sure what your mid / long haul tastes might be.     

On 3/1/2019 at 10:48 PM, DeskSmkr said:

And I'm posting in Wine Beer Spirits, but wonder if posting in The Water Hole forum would be a better idea?

Posted in the correct place. For what it's worth, I always view the forum from the activity tab, so new posts show up on top regardless of sub forum.

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

for anything other than short term drinking, you need to make certain you have quality storage. no matter where you live, you need either a proper temperature controlled cellar if at yours or a mate's. or use professional storage. it is an extra cost but more than worth it. quite honestly, the 'i live in a cold region' or the 'it is always cool in the basement' might work to a degree but it will not for long term. people are absolutely staggered when they find out hope much temperatures vary. and variation will harm your wine. if you are building a serious cellar, you'll need way more than merely a wine fridge. 

buying futures is a good idea but be careful re vintages. these days, it works for the best years but you can get caught for lesser years. this is partly due to the world finally discovering the glories of burgundy and a lot of lesser bordeaux is struggling at the moment. but who knows what will happen in two years or ten. 

agree in getting a mix as you work out what you want. as for working out what you like, spend as much time at dinners and tastings and talking to good reps at top retailers. it takes time but it is worth it. depending on how serious you want to be, think about keeping notes so you can track what you like. 

do remember that there are plenty of good whites which will age superbly as well.

finally, do not be put off by a screwcap for ageing - personally, i believe that they age better than cork. we've seen 20 years of it now, in australia, and longer with some examples. absolutely in no doubt on that. 

[Çnote]

@DeskSmkr

I'm happy to help, 20y wine professional

Where are you in the world? I'd start there as that will affect what you can get at on a budget and what your storage setup will need to look like

Feel free to PM me

[vinnyvega]

Lol, Bordeaux is indestructible.   I have had bottles with seepage through the foil, and it was so delicious.   1996 pavillion rouge.  Everyone thought is was toast.  The bottle was literally leaking.  I took it home for a song and my friends thought I was nuts. It was epic.

The bottle at the end on the right was kept at 70+ degrees for its life. It was perfect. Avoid big temperature fluctuations and you will be fine.

[DeskSmkr]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:59 AM, BrightonCorgi said:

Well, how many bottles do you plan to drink a month?  Most divide their wine buying into short (ready to drink now), mid term (2-10 years) and long haul wines (more than 10 years).  If you spend equally on all, you should be covered as many of the drink now's could be priced less than the long haul wines.  You should consider buying futures of your favorite Bordeaux as many retailers offer great pricing and there will be no stories on how the wine was stored until you get it.

For mature wines now, try a wine auction.  Not sure your locale, but there are many wine auctions.  You need to know what you are doing though.  I would recommend researching each wine that is a consideration to make sure recent reviews show the wine still drinking fine.  Some go for greater wines in off years than unheard of wines in great years.  Everyone has different means and what would be a yearly budget for me could be a weekend of drinking for you...  Seeing how you are looking for 1st-3rd growth's; you must be doing things right!

About four per month.  
I hadn't really considered different wines for short, medium, and long term, and I will now.  
Futures were not a consideration either, and they will be now.  I think with climate change/global warming we are going to get more and more stellar vintages to a point.
Wine auctions could be a great way for me to broaden my experience, I'll be sure to research adequately.
I'm interested in doing things more right - and the first growths are not something I'm seriously considering in large quantity.  I'm re-thinking these to maybe once every other year; after researching, the prices are higher than I initially expected. I do really want to try a Lafite and see what all the fuss is about.  

 

On 3/4/2019 at 1:11 PM, selpo said:

Great advice above. Also, keep in mind that you need a stable temp and humidity controlled environment to age wine as well.

I'm taking everyone's suggestions into consideration and would like to hold off on amassing too much inventory until adequate quantity planning has been done and the storage method is reliable and sized.  A friend showed me a custom standing wine storage in his garage that holds cases and has a stand alone refrigeration unit (probably heating as well, I didn't ask.)  Inventory is accounted for by position in storage on a spreadsheet.  I've tasted some of his stock, actually, these tastings were what peaked my interest and started this journey we are discussing; it was a Chateauneuf-du-pape Domaine de la Solitude.  Similar storage seems like it might work for me but I'm going to investigate everyone's words before choosing.

 

On 3/4/2019 at 2:09 PM, Colt45 said:

My only suggestion would be that if this is something relatively new, to not invest too heavily in one country/region/zone - until you're more sure what your mid / long haul tastes might be.     

Posted in the correct place. For what it's worth, I always view the forum from the activity tab, so new posts show up on top regardless of sub forum.

I consider myself very novice.  Your assessment is accurate. I have taken action with a wine book and discussion with a local friend. I'm looking for Chilean and Australian wines to taste next.  My dad said tastes and preference can change over time also, so it may be a partially moving target, however, the flavor profile I have consistently always looked for in a red wine has been the same, I know what I like when I taste and smell it.

Thanks for the tip on the activity tab, I wasn't aware of it.

 

On 3/4/2019 at 2:32 PM, Ken Gargett said:

for anything other than short term drinking, you need to make certain you have quality storage. no matter where you live, you need either a proper temperature controlled cellar if at yours or a mate's. or use professional storage. it is an extra cost but more than worth it. quite honestly, the 'i live in a cold region' or the 'it is always cool in the basement' might work to a degree but it will not for long term. people are absolutely staggered when they find out hope much temperatures vary. and variation will harm your wine. if you are building a serious cellar, you'll need way more than merely a wine fridge. 

buying futures is a good idea but be careful re vintages. these days, it works for the best years but you can get caught for lesser years. this is partly due to the world finally discovering the glories of burgundy and a lot of lesser bordeaux is struggling at the moment. but who knows what will happen in two years or ten. 

agree in getting a mix as you work out what you want. as for working out what you like, spend as much time at dinners and tastings and talking to good reps at top retailers. it takes time but it is worth it. depending on how serious you want to be, think about keeping notes so you can track what you like. 

do remember that there are plenty of good whites which will age superbly as well.

finally, do not be put off by a screwcap for ageing - personally, i believe that they age better than cork. we've seen 20 years of it now, in australia, and longer with some examples. absolutely in no doubt on that. 

Ok, by cellar do you mean underground, dug out earth, with stone lined walls, or a custom built cabinet in a garage with adequately designed temperature and humidity control, or something else?
Cautious about futures, ok, it's a gamble predicting the weather and subsequent crop.  And burgundy is also on my must try next list.
Dinners and tastings I looked for briefly, and need to look with more effort and get this scheduled.  I'm lucky to have a local retailer that is an enthusiast himself and I will spend more time with him next week or week after.  I've just now started a notebook for wine, glad you mentioned it.
Yes, I've had 10 year old Chardonnay that was fantastic but I had dismissed it. I will be sure to include whites as I do enjoy them with foods.
Personally I enjoy the ritual of the cork but easily see the value in a screw cap.  I prefer canned beer because it seems fresher, is never light struck, and the container is more easily disposed.  After one bottle of Chateauneuf-du-Pape that was "corked" two months ago, the extra effort to exchange it, knowing that bottle was lost without enjoyment, is all the more reason for screw caps. I agree they are a better solution moving forward yet sad with the loss of a hallmark.  Sort of like cars: stick-shift vs paddle shift.

 

On 3/7/2019 at 5:18 PM, Çnote said:

@DeskSmkr

I'm happy to help, 20y wine professional

Where are you in the world? I'd start there as that will affect what you can get at on a budget and what your storage setup will need to look like

Feel free to PM me

Great, will do.

 

On 3/8/2019 at 4:33 AM, vinnyvega said:

Lol, Bordeaux is indestructible.   I have had bottles with seepage through the foil, and it was so delicious.   1996 pavillion rouge.  Everyone thought is was toast.  The bottle was literally leaking.  I took it home for a song and my friends thought I was nuts. It was epic.

The bottle at the end on the right was kept at 70+ degrees for its life. It was perfect. Avoid big temperature fluctuations and you will be fine.

Ok, I love the results. I'll try this as well, with caution!
 

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I read everyone's posts days ago. I needed to find time to reply thoughtfully and give the responses the time they deserved.

So far I've tasted third, fourth, and fifth growths.  These introductory tastings are far from over and will always evolve.
For what it's worth, Chateau Giscours 2012 is my current favorite.  Very curious about Penfolds.

Right now I'm tasting a Chateau Branaire Ducru 2015, young, tight, but starting to open up.  I'm picking up yeasty mash, cheese, and a heady red wine perfume similar to Margaux, bitter finish, brought to mind pink. Later, roses and cereal, skunk, thought of purple, twisted gnarls/burl of vine trunk.  Minutes later chlorine, blackberry, strawberry on the long finish, again rose nose, pancakes maple syrup, raspberries, dry autumn leaves, banana, caramel.  Minutes later, lush pink rose on the nose, effervescent apple juice, chocolate. Oak. 

[BrightonCorgi]

10 hours ago, DeskSmkr said:

Cautious about futures, ok, it's a gamble predicting the weather and subsequent crop.  

Futures are not a gamble as the harvest is completed and in the barrel before the first offers are solicited.   I see a lot of good values coming from Saint-Émilion and Pomerol; not sure why but there are some outstanding buys for '15 and '16 vintages currently.  Châteauneuf-du-Pape is also another high value region at the moment.  You can get closer to blue chip wines from that region for the money than many others today.

[LLC]

Futures are not a gamble as the harvest is completed and in the barrel before the first offers are solicited.   I see a lot of good values coming from Saint-Émilion and Pomerol; not sure why but there are some outstanding buys for '15 and '16 vintages currently.  Châteauneuf-du-Pape is also another high value region at the moment.  You can get closer to blue chip wines from that region for the money than many others today.

Agree, you have lots of information available before you buy futures. First year I did it was for the 2000 vintage and bought around 50 bottles as futures. Ended up being a very smart move. Still have some of them left but sadly not many. I’ve continued to buy futures of select vintages ever since and I’ve never been disappointed.


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