The Harley Davidson Decline

[El Presidente]

I saw it mentioned on the toy of the week thread. 

Knowing many of you ride Harley's (including my local members Stan Shagga etal), what are the reasons?

I ask this as a business owner and lover of iconic brands/products. 

Where did they go wrong? is it all exaggerated?  What can they do to recover?

I would love  the viewpoint of  passionistas 

 

[PigFish]

We just need a new generation of helicopter kids to hit middle age that don't believe the internal combustion engine will be the end of the world!

The new H-D

[DeskSmkr]

Preface- I’m not a Harley owner myself.  Passionista, yes, for Ducati.

Of the three HD I’ve ridden, the levers were sloppy. My impression was a heavy bike made of cast iron and plastic, a slow bike that scraped the ground with the exhaust on the first corner.  

The water cooled HD, can’t remeber the model at the moment, flat did not want to turn - lots of lean angle but still more needed to make the corner. Power was better but too smooth, turbine like. Give me the sense of the cylinders firing but don’t make my wrists and joints numb doing it.

I was disillusioned when I finally got to experience the HD - so many with outrageously loud exhaust, and come to find out it was all bark, no bite. Lots of torque, sure, but for all that noise, I expect more midrange and top end power. It may have well been electric the way it delivered power, all down low in the rev range.

The self canceling turn signals were genius. The seat was comfortable, it was stable at normal cruising speed.

Now I in no way mean to offend any HD owners, only share my passionate opinion. I recognize HD as engrained in culture, and a bike is a bike, and anyone that rides is cool by me.

The solution? Listen to customers? Employ a passionate rider’s input. Find out what owners tell stories about regarding their HD. Find out how the bike integrates into their life and makes it better.  Find out why someone what wants a cruiser buys another brand. Find out what HD does well and do it.  Make a “Roots” bike, one with suspension but less plastic, enough vibration, more raw. Do lots of attention to detail from the bottom to the top.

[houdini]

32 minutes ago, DeskSmkr said:

Preface- I’m not a Harley owner myself.  Passionista, yes, for Ducati.

Of the three HD I’ve ridden, the levers were sloppy. My impression was a heavy bike made of cast iron and plastic, a slow bike that scraped the ground with the exhaust on the first corner.  

The water cooled HD, can’t remeber the model at the moment, flat did not want to turn - lots of lean angle but still more needed to make the corner. Power was better but too smooth.

I was disillusioned when I finally got to experience the HD - so many with outrageously loud exhaust, and come to find out it was all bark, no bite. Lots of torque, sure, but for all that noise, I expect more midrange and top end power. It may have well been electric the way it delivered power, all down low in the rev range.

The self canceling turn signals were genius. The seat was comfortable, it was stable at normal cruising speed.

Now I in no way mean to offend any HD owners, only share my passionate opinion. I recognize HD as engrained in culture, and a bike is a bike, and anyone that rides is cool by me.

Couldnt have said it better....I am a Ducati man as well.

[smokum]

Baby Boomers.... there are LOADS of used Harleys for sale now with very few miles on them. Everyone grew a beard and had to have one. When it gets hard to get your tired old arthritic leg over the seat and even harder to hold the damn thing up you realize its time to give it up. They have tried to target a younger market but younger folks want more power,better handling etc. The price of a Harley is more than a similar smooth riding and running foreign cruiser. The water coolers never took off like they wanted but I am told they are good bikes but guys who want sport bikes arent buying VRods. The electric bike is too expensive and kind of goofy looking. They want to position themselves as a premium bike with premium prices. Old guys will never ride anything but a Harley. Young guys will never ride a Harley. They are in a tough spot. They have been in tough spots thru their history. Hope they survive it. I thought I read where they are trying very hard to make a much stronger push in the non U.S. market .  

[Colt45]

I don't know what the picture is for motorcycles overall... My brief, general, overall opinion is that they kept all their eggs in one basket for far too long. I personally thought they blew it back in the '90s when they came out with the VR1000 and didn't pursue that side of things. They certainly could have kept producing "legacy" bikes, but also could have made a real effort to produce true sport bikes.

[semifan1]

As a HD owner I have to say they are pricing themselves right out of ordinary people owning one. What's it like 25K for a road king now, that's the price of a small car. I barely ride mine now as most of the time I work overseas, another factor for me is it's just not as safe riding as it used to be, way to many people distracted by things in cars now.  

[Lotusguy]

As someone that lives in the woods near a nice “driving road”, I hope they go under.

Every frigging d€>€*head owner here removes the muffler and that crap literally shakes my windows. F that.

And it’s only HD - no other bikes that pass by (and there are plenty on a nice summer day) are owned by such posers with something to prove.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

[bsubtown]

My father-in-law is a HD guy. He had one in college sold it when he had to be serious about school and then bought another when he was maybe 53. Been riding them constantly again since then to his current 66. I think he is on his 5th bike total. He and his wife and some friends go on long over-the-road trips. They have a great time For him and his friends there is no substitute. I think if you got him drunk enough he would admit they are 1) overpriced 2) heavy 3) 95% a style thing. 

There will always be a subset of people who love the freedom of riding a motorcycle. HD may need a lot of changes but I cannot see them going away completely as long as the desire to be seen as rebeling exists in people. The brand is too strong for it to go away. If you walk into a Walmart around here you will see many people wearing HD shirts few if any will ever afford one or ride one. 

Funnily as my FIL and I were by a fire last weekend and I was enjoying a Lusitania I offered him a cigar, which he always refuses, and he mentioned he would enjoy a pipe occasionally but did not like the risk associated with the use of tobacco. It is funny how people have different risk tolerances and evaluations. I have no desire to ride a motorcycle because of the inherent risk of that activity. 

[Hookmaker]

4 hours ago, Lotusguy said:

As someone that lives in the woods near a nice “driving road”, I hope they go under.

Every frigging d€>€*head owner here removes the muffler and that crap literally shakes my windows. F that.

And it’s only HD - no other bikes that pass by (and there are plenty on a nice summer day) are owned by such posers with something to prove.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

Well, said. I too hate that s***! I went Tesla 5 years ago, and will never go back. Combustion and oil is dead and for cavemen. Like cash. Hell, I like noisy car/bikes - on track days. But not on my city streets.

[smokum]

1 hour ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Cash is so far from being dead. So many local businesses offer discounts when you pay in cash because they don't want to pay the 3% service fee for running a credit/debit card. Heck, many hospitals and doctors offices offer cash discounts! Talk about out of touch with reality.

Oil is even further from being dead. Tesla would be dead if it wasnt for public funds.

[Colt45]

I think the fact that a good deal of elctricity is still generated by the burning of fossil fuels is perhaps sometimes overlooked....

[BrightonCorgi]

My cousin is the founder and now CTO of https://www.mondaymotorbikes.com/  

I am familiar with the industry at a good bit of detail.

[HarveyBoulevard]

First, cash is no where near dead and neither is oil nor the internal combustion engine.

I ride a Harley by choice but love all things on two (and four) wheels.  I've had 4 different Harleys from the 883, 1200, Dyna, and now ride a softail.  They are heavy.  I don't care.  They are not the fastest.  I'm not in a hurry and it is plenty fast for my needs.  I like the style and the sound (also called noise).

Harley is not for everyone because everyone has a different desire/purpose when they ride and why they ride.  I don't carve mountains.  I ride for peace and solace.  My Harley does everything I need it to and nothing more.

Harley's problem is they refused to change and when they did change, they missed the mark.  As your primary consumer ages, new consumers are needed to survive.  Harley did not act fast enough or accurately enough to capture a changing demographic.  I don't think they are dead but they are not the company they used to be.  Not sure they ever will be due to the lateness of their response to changing buyers and market.

I don't see a problem in continuing to produce their current style of motorcycle but they needed to add a new line to complete with cafe racers, sport bikes, etc.  That may be too little too late but I hope not.

My only wish is that my Softail was liquid cooled.  I live in SoCal near the desert and air cooled engines suck when it is 110F.  Still won't get me to change

[DeskSmkr]

2 hours ago, HarveyBoulevard said:

 I ride for peace and solace.  My Harley does everything I need it to and nothing more.

Thanks for the insight, I didn’t know this, and the awareness has me considering riding in a whole different way.

[inter4alia]

My viewpoint as a “passionista” to use @Elpresidente 's word.

The HD I grew up with is mostly dead.  Back at that time, HD was about showing your individuality and having pride in the country that built the machine you rode.  Everyone knew they were not the fastest two-wheeler on the street, we did not care.  Everyone knew they did not handle the best of the two-wheelers on the street, we did not care.  Everyone had grease under their fingernails and bloody knuckles from doing your own work on your bike, we did not care. 

The HD I grew up with was about making the machine your own.  Yeah, the factory built the bike but that was never the bike you actually rode.  You worked on your own bike and you customized your own bike to suit your riding and personal style – everything from paint job to valve job.  It was a member of the family – someone that you gave a bed to in your basement during the cold Midwest winter months so that you could work on her without freezing to death and make sure she would be ready to sing in the spring with the new or swapped parts you recently sourced.  So what if the basement smelled of gasoline and oil.  Actually, the women of the house did care. 

It was a lifestyle, not just a bike.  Sure, it is different now but I chose to live with these memories rather than focus on the current state of affairs.   

I have ridden all types of bikes, HD, Japanese, Italian, British, etc.  I love to ride and I enjoyed riding all of them.  They all give you something different as a rider.  But nothing could give you exactly what HD could, and that is simply a feeling that you either know or it is a feeling that you will probably never understand.  There really is no middle ground.  You not only hear the HD V-Twin when you ride, you feel it – in your muscles, bones, and soul.  No other V-Twin gives you the same.  It may be noise to you, but it is jazz/blues/classical/rock & roll all in one package to me. 

An open stretch of road and the rumble of an HD V-Twin is the purest form of peace, solace, and freedom I have felt.  Right there with you @HarveyBoulevard.  It is my meditation.    

Your mileage may vary, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

[SCgarman]

Simple answer to your question Rob is the younger generations have no interest in a 25K USD motorcycle (essentially a warm weather toy). Baby boomers are getting too old to ride. They were the ones who kept H-D rolling in the $$ for decades. Those days are now gone. BTW, I owned 3 of them and was at one time hard core. My passion for them has died. I have a 13 year old daughter to care for and other things to consume my time. Next bike if/when that time ever comes again will be a Honda Goldwing. Perhaps the most comfortable touring bike there is, which is what appeals to me.

[Hookmaker]

6 hours ago, smokum said:

Oil is even further from being dead. Tesla would be dead if it wasnt for public funds.

Let’s meet again in 10 shall we ?

[El Presidente]

Let's not make this a GW debate 

We have one of our two major political parties seeking to make 50% of all vehicles sold electric by 2030. They will likely win this election.   I am now seeing gas stations fitting out for fast electric charging. 

When in HK, is was having lunch with Foxy and I stopped counting ar 52 Tesla that had driven past.  

Hyundai has released a $45K Electric (31.5 USD) in this country. Demand is apparently huge. 

By any measure, this change is happening now.  I thought it would take a lot longer. 

 

[SCgarman]

17 minutes ago, FatherOfPugs said:

Cool! That's what "industry experts" have been saying every 10 years for the past 40 years. Hell, in 1981 it was predicted we were going to run out of oil in 31 years (2012). It's 2019 and we have anywhere from 53 - 250 years worth left, if met in the middle of those two numbers let's say 150 years, it is still well beyond anyone currently alive's life expectancy. I was also told in 1991 that by 2010 I would have a flying car. Where's my flying car?

Wait a minute! According to an unnamed young woman, isn't the world going to end in 12 years??!! 

[SCgarman]

10 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

Let's not make this a GW debate 

We have one of our two major political parties seeking to make 50% of all vehicles sold electric by 2030. They will likely win this election.   I am now seeing gas stations fitting out for fast electric charging. 

When in HK, is was having lunch with Foxy and I stopped counting ar 52 Tesla that had driven past.  

Hyundai has released a $45K Electric (31.5 USD) in this country. Demand is apparently huge. 

By any measure, this change is happening now.  I thought it would take a lot longer. 

 

Well we in the USA are definitely different from some other countries. Gasoline is cheap here. People are mostly buying V-8 powered pickup trucks, SUV's and crossovers. Ford and Chevy have virtually stopped making passenger sedans (cars) because nobody is buying them. Electric vehicles here in the USA? Not happening in my lifetime. I am 53 this Oct BTW

…...And nobody in their right mind will pay 30K USD for an electric Harley.

[El Presidente]

4 minutes ago, NYgarman said:

Well we in the USA are definitely different from some other countries. Gasoline is cheap here. People are mostly buying V-8 powered pickup trucks, SUV's and crossovers. Ford and Chevy have virtually stopped making passenger sedans (cars) because nobody is buying them. Electric vehicles here in the USA? Not happening in my lifetime. I am 53 this Oct BTW

That would mean your Auto makers would just "give up" on global markets?

 

from Forbes

Chinese consumers are on track to buy more than 1 million electric vehicles (EVs) this year after sales grew 53% in 2017.  And China’s leadership is charting a course to an all-electric future, targeting 2 million annual EV sales by 2020 and a complete ban on internal-combustion engines, which officials predicts will happen before 2040.

[SCgarman]

1 minute ago, El Presidente said:

That would mean your Auto makers would just "give up" on global markets?

The answer to that one is out of my pay grade!

[JohnnyO]

Rob...US manufacturers have never figured out 4 cylinders. All they know are gas guzzling 8's. You cant sell 8 cylinders abroad and you cant sell 4 cylinders if you don't know what you are doing. HD had a bad decline in the early 80's and needed government help. By putting tariffs on bikes over 700cc, the Japs quickly started making under 700 cc bikes for the US market. The tariffs were for 5 years and when lifted the prices for all bikes remained high. HD recovered but all the Jap bikes were stronger in the market. All Jap bikes are more technologically advanced than any HD many years back. HD started making for the European market in Malaysia (or in that area) recently, maybe signs of more bad things to come. They just haven't done any RD over the years and in the Daytona 200 none of their bikes ever finish the race. I've owned only Jap bikes but appreciate the HD culture. People want bells and whistles, not brick phones. 

[SCgarman]

1 hour ago, El Presidente said:

That would mean your Auto makers would just "give up" on global markets?

 

from Forbes

Chinese consumers are on track to buy more than 1 million electric vehicles (EVs) this year after sales grew 53% in 2017.  And China’s leadership is charting a course to an all-electric future, targeting 2 million annual EV sales by 2020 and a complete ban on internal-combustion engines, which officials predicts will happen before 2040.

Well you can't blame China, can you? Just look at the filthy air SMOG there, so bad it blocks out the sun and people walk the streets wearing surgical masks. Maybe I am blind, but here in my parts I see nor smell no smog or dirty air. But the USA is only a population of 320 million. Which pales in comparison to China.