Where we are headed with all this gender nonsense

[BoliDan]

Some people are confusing terms here. "Gender" is an academic term developed by sociologists that is meant to be specific to identify. It was created for that purpose and is different from sex. Look up the definition of gender, it has nothing to do with biology. People hating on others is always bad, and morals aren't superior if they also cast judgement.

Society is always changing, it's the new generation's world and this is now "normal". Best not to get offended by it. I hate hatred (yeah yeah). That being said, I will raise my son to be a man and remain confused when someone claims they identify as a taco.

[Boxer1]

3 hours ago, Bri Fi said:

Just out of curiosity, is this a global issue? I wasn’t sure if this was a US thing or if everyone is dealing with this. It’s so frustrating. 

I’ve wondered the same about this and some other things going on lately in the US. I remember when I was a kid telling my parents they didn’t know what I was going though. That things were so much different than when they were kids. They assured me that they always understood. I know they were right but I think parents today will have a harder time saying that. It seems like societal changes went from baby steps to leaps and bounds in the last couple years. We have a 12 year old that already goes through stuff that has me wondering what the hell happened. We also have one on the way and I can’t begin to imagine what the world is going to look like for him growing up. 

[mwaller]

I don't think it's nonsense, but I do think it's virtually impossible for someone with a conventional gender identity to understand what it is to be non-binary or transgender.  I know two parents with transgender children.  In both cases, their children were born biologically male, but identified as girls from a very early age - before the age of 2.  Despite growing acceptance, these kids face a difficult road ahead.  I'm thankful that the parents are doing everything in their power to support their children as they are.  

[forgop]

If I had a dollar for every gender, how many dollars would I have?
2, and a lot of fakes. It's biology, biology says only 2!

There is the rare exception when you are born with both sets of genitalia. I get it under those circumstances. But when you're clearly 100% male/female but "identify" otherwise, that's a mental disorder.

When I see patients, I don't refer to them using pronouns for something they are not. Additionally, if you're "confused", I'm happy to refer you to someone else, but I will not prescribe you hormones either.

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[forgop]

Really?

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[99call]

Whether is be Veganisim, Crossfit, or Gender Neutrality.   The sad thing is there will be 99% attention seekers, and 1% of people genuinely suffering, confused, or genuinely feel at odds with themselves.............especially crossfit.

Like Marlon said "what are you rebelling against?"  "what have you got?"   people in their time often want to shock and push the envelope and do crazy stuff.    I think some on this forum need to remember the whole host of whacky nutjob stuff that was going on in the 1970's.     I'm not sure,  but I reckon 22% of the nation would either put down "wallpaper" or "space programme"  if asked their gender. 

I definitely don't agree with it, but to this day it has impacted my life, 0%.    I would say the "Peter pan syndrome" of the baby boomer generation is far more annoying. A hole army of people, dressing like teenagers, and ruining peoples fun by continuing to attend festivals..........70 is in fact not the new 25, get over it

[El Presidente]

12 minutes ago, db13 said:

Men aren’t allowed to be men anymore. Somewhere society decided to go <snip snip> and now it’s me too and gender fluidity, men wear their hair in man buns wearing jumpers. Stay at home dads while the wife has a career... all of this stuff while not necessary bad in it of itself - as a whole is detrimental to men being men. 

I know where you are coming from but I have to disagree .......to a degree.

You are the only one who can diminish your sense of identity. In this case masculinity.  No politician or public servant can change you by changing the words on a piece of paper.

If one saw it as masculine to persecute gays/trans/anyone different (or weaker) then they have no understanding of what it is to be a man/masculine. 

At the same time, no one should "force through penalty" the right for one to maintain his/her established beliefs ...............as long as the expression of those beliefs  are not causing harm/persecuting others. 

 

 

[El Presidente]

17 minutes ago, 99call said:

Whether is be Veganisim, Crossfit, or Gender Neutrality.   The sad thing is there will be 99% attention seekers, and 1% of people genuinely suffering, confused, or genuinely feel at odds with themselves.............especially crossfit.

A little research will show that the actual and attempted  suicide rates of gender challenged youth is quite staggering. Dependent on what you read, around 40% contemplate it (males. It is near 30% for females)

I see no harm in making things a little easier if I can. 

[99call]

Just now, El Presidente said:

I see no harm in making things a little easier if I can. 

Completely agree Rob, (I had referenced percentages in an off the cuff light hearted manner, they were never intended to be taken as from any source).

Whomever may find the concept difficult to support, the reality is it cost us nothing to let people say they are whatever they want. Just like 'flatearthers' present me with no issue.  As I said, it has affected my life 0%, and if it has made someone else contented, then that's just fine. 

[Ken Gargett]

35 minutes ago, 99call said:

Whether is be Veganisim, Crossfit, or Gender Neutrality.   The sad thing is there will be 99% attention seekers, and 1% of people genuinely suffering, confused, or genuinely feel at odds with themselves.............especially crossfit.

Like Marlon said "what are you rebelling against?"  "what have you got?"   people in their time often want to shock and push the envelope and do crazy stuff.    I think some on this forum need to remember the whole host of whacky nutjob stuff that was going on in the 1970's.     I'm not sure,  but I reckon 22% of the nation would either put down "wallpaper" or "space programme"  if asked their gender. 

I definitely don't agree with it, but to this day it has impacted my life, 0%.    I would say the "Peter pan syndrome" of the baby boomer generation is far more annoying. A hole army of people, dressing like teenagers, and ruining peoples fun by continuing to attend festivals..........70 is in fact not the new 25, get over it

i have not the slightest clue what crossfit is (should i know? do i need to know? i suspect not) but this is all what i was getting at above. take away their oxygen. the more you fight them, the more they love it, the more press/noise/coverage they get. completely ruins their day if you just shrug shoulders and say fine. 

[forgop]

But it does feed into their mental disorder.

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[99call]

12 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i have not the slightest clue what crossfit is (should i know?

Haha.   Crossfit: An exercise regime, where the intended outcome is to be exceptional at nothing, but mediocre at 5000 exercises that you will never perform in a sporting or non sporting context. 

 

 

[Ken Gargett]

34 minutes ago, 99call said:

Haha.   Crossfit: An exercise regime, where the intended outcome is to be exceptional at nothing, but mediocre at 5000 exercises that you will never perform in a sporting or non sporting context. 

 

 

so nothing i need to know about. 

[Zigatoh]

44 minutes ago, forgop said:

But it does feed into their mental disorder.

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I hadn't realised this until looking into it now, so this discussion is educational at least, but apparently until the 1970's and even up to the mid 1980's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder! How things change over time.

[Vortigan]

The West appears to be undergoing some huge cultural changes at the moment. It seems to me that we've become fat, dumb and happy since WW2 and the counter culture of the 60's has now grown into a rampaging monster wherein everything of conservative nature is now seen as subversive and woe betide you if you dare to stand up for it, you goose stepping, jackbooted Nazi!

Leftism is a grievance mongering ideology of hate and resentment and the tipping point of its growth in The West may very well come when it finally comes head to head with other, ultra conservative ideologies that absolutely WILL NOT tolerate anything from outside of its prescriptive parameters, even those things which us more moderate, centre/centre right types see as perfectly ok, gay marriage being the most obvious example I can think of right now. 

We'll see what happens, I suppose, but I think that right now we're heading for a train wreck as demographic numbers start to equalise. It'll happen first here in Europe, we've kind of stolen the march on this one. Maybe The US will learn from us, maybe not. 

I sometimes find myself caught between being happy that I'll probably be gone before the excrement REALLY starts to collide with the rotating blades and wanting to live long enough to see how the current circus show plays out.

"Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times"

G.Michael Hopf

[Ken Gargett]

1 minute ago, Zigatoh said:

I hadn't realised this until looking into it now, so this discussion is educational at least, but apparently until the 1970's and even up to the mid 1980's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder! How things change over time.

exactly. sure being trans - and i will confess that i am the furtherest thing from an expert on this - is something that may lead to mental health issues (as can many things) but is not actually a mental disorder in and of itself. just as per being gay was thought of some time ago. aren't we past that? how on earth does it help anyone to stigmatise people in this way? 

[Deeg]

10 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

exactly. sure being trans - and i will confess that i am the furtherest thing from an expert on this - is something that may lead to mental health issues (as can many things) but is not actually a mental disorder in and of itself. just as per being gay was thought of some time ago. aren't we past that? how on earth does it help anyone to stigmatise people in this way? 

It helps people who are insecure about who they are to feel less insecure about who they are...

[forgop]

I hadn't realised this until looking into it now, so this discussion is educational at least, but apparently until the 1970's and even up to the mid 1980's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder! How things change over time.

Yeah, I recognize this was an issue many years ago.

 

I'm not under the impression people will fake their sexual orientation for attention. However, the way gender is being promoted to children, many will find a source of attention and use it to get more attention It's easier to fake who you "feel" you are atound others, but if you're truly not ***, I feel far fewer people are going to have same sex partners for the same result of that makes sense.

 

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[Colt45]

My thought with all this is where are humans headed as a species? (not in a societal sense) How are we evolving?

[El Presidente]

45 minutes ago, forgop said:

 However, the way gender is being promoted to children, many will find a source of attention 
 

That is my pet peeve. 

On reflection,  no bigger a peeve than how 5 year old boys and girls can freely sit down to MTV and watch rapper BJ Bitchslap with his cavalcade of gyrating ho's tell the kids how he likes to jizz. 

I suspect the second one has more of an effect on young minds. 

It is all a touch screwed up.  I am not sure whether utopia really existed in any period of human civilisation once it is put under the spot light

 

 

 

[99call]

7 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

(not in a societal sense) How are we evolving?

To me these things are bonded and indivisible, i.e. how any given animal operates, will have a physiological affect. for example polar bears changing territory, and eventual cross breading etc. 

To me we are going through an ungoverned rogue era of disinformation, or Hypernormalisation.  We are being robbed of understood norms of truth.  Like the metaphor of pandoras box, (that Stephen Fry has brilliantly laid out) the internet (one imagined as the great liberator) has unearthed the worst forms of human nature. Hate, lies etc. 

Forms of entrepreneurialism all seem to be moving in a morbid direction, to profit from the vulnerable, and those least capable to make well balanced decisions.  The truth is like a compass, without it, people are sailing off into ultra left, and ultra right black holes.  I remember an American work colleague saying back in 2012 "I know my own truth"  such a scary phrase. 

I think we need a reckoning, ultimately even for those who profit wildly from it, Disinformation and lies (i hope) will be a large gas filled zeppolin which will crash to the earth, and we will all breath a sigh of relief.    Oddly I think World Wars usually presents mankind with this kind of humbling fresh page, i.e how could we of been so stupid etc. 

As a species the concept of group gain, usually steers us away from selfishness and unaccomidating opinion,   but the high street is dying, people are talking face to face less, people are not having to see the negative affect of their words or actions in the flesh, they just troll and scroll on 

To me, (although I make mistakes, and have done recently on this very forum)  The internet should be a privilege. Tim Berners-lee invented the internet, as a tool to enrich learning, if we can't be trusted to use it correctly it should be taken away, or at least banned from from a period of time. If that included me, then so be it. 

Are evolution as a species will be determined by if we are able to stop being so isolated and stupid to think our individual voice or tweet holds so much weight.  I think human kind it often at its best post war,  when are ego's have had a royal spanking, and we come together, help each other, and not be so bloody selfish. 

Where this reckoning will come from I don't know, I hope it's not bloody.   But we all need a check up, from the neck up

[Colt45]

20 minutes ago, 99call said:

To me these things are bonded and indivisible....

I think I interpret most of what you've said as societal - how we interact with each other, how we treat each other, etc. I don't know if I can properly articulate my thoughts, but I'm thinking more along the lines of - as we no longer really need two humans of the opposite sex (together at the same time) to reproduce, as the lines between sex / gender / indentity become increasingly blurred - how will (if at all) this effect the evolution of humans as a species?

[forgop]

I think I interpret most of what you've said as societal - how we interact with each other, how we treat each other, etc. I don't know if I can properly articulate my thoughts, but I'm thinking more along the lines of - as we no longer really need two humans of the opposite sex (together at the same time) to reproduce, as the lines between sex / gender / indentity become increasingly blurred - how will (if at all) this effect the evolution of humans as a species?

Unfortunately, they'll still use their God-given gender to reproduce.

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[99call]

14 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

I think I interpret most of what you've said as societal - how we interact with each other, how we treat each other, etc. I don't know if I can properly articulate my thoughts, but I'm thinking more along the lines of - as we no longer really need two humans of the opposite sex (together at the same time) to reproduce, as the lines between sex / gender / indentity become increasingly blurred - how will (if at all) this effect the evolution of humans as a species?

Don't worry about it, we will soon just be rowing desperately on a futuristic carbon fibre ship, being whipped by robots

[Ryan]

No (or at least very few) parents want their kids to be different, that is gay/lesbian, trans etc. Or a whole load of other things, disabled, autistic, bipolar, depressed, anorexic etc.

I know I am including a few negative things in there and I don't mean to associate homosexuality with a negative state of being, I don't. But until recently, in most places, it was. And still is in many places.

It meant bullying, shame, institutions, therapy, ostracization, celibacy, suicide. Because people were not allowed to be who they are. Possibly a lot of it was and is due to many countries legal codes around social issues being based on religious texts. If you base a legal and/or civic code on one group's religion, it make it easy to criminalize "the other".

There was a same-sex marriage referendum here three years ago, to change to constitution to allow same-sex marriage. It passed with a large majority.

The pro-same sex marriage groups ran a good campaign. Knowing that the "No" side would use the "what about the children?" debate, that is, what about children of gay couples or should gay couples be allowed to adopt children (they already were here). The pro same-sex side ran with the debate, "What about my gay child? Don't they deserve the same rights as everyone else?". They weren't talking about 3 year olds. They were talking about teenagers and older children. It was very effective and helped swing the vote.

And I think that is largely what the debate on gender is. That people who were traditionally thought of as being different, now being allowed to be a part of the "normal". And if the definition of "normal" has to expand, then it must, as it always has. It's very important for parents of these people to know this too. That there is nothing "wrong" with their child. Simply that people are allowed to be who they are.

The current difficulties we are having with gender and identification, I don't think will last too long, it is largely a language issue and language evolves much faster than we do.

If you think it is bad in English, try Spanish or another language with gender-specific pronouns and adjectives. I was in Spain a few weeks ago and we had a "gender-unspecified" server in a bar. None of us knew or could figure out. I was reduced to "gracias" and "cuatro mas Cubatas por favor" but that person seemed very happy.

Finally, I like Renton's (from Trainspotting) fairly simple take on it.

"1,000 years from now, there'll be no guys, no girls. Just wankers" 

His prophecy may be coming true sooner than he thought!