Where we are headed with all this gender nonsense

[99call]

5 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Finally, I like Renton's (from Trainspotting) fairly simple take on it.

"1,000 years from now, there'll be no guys, no girls. Just wankers" 

His prophecy may be coming true sooner than he thought!

Great great post, hats off to you Sir

[CaptainQuintero]

  I really try to understand but like a lot of things in life it's a bit beyond me, so I go down the live and let live approach.

  My only visceral experience with it is a 6 year old who is the son of one of my Wife's work friends. The kid apparently likes dresses and make up etc so they've gone full on down the route of him being treat as a girl now; dresses only in Disney princess outfits 24/7, full drag queen make up, girls knickers, heals, Birthday parties would make Ru Paul proud. Goes to school in dresses and make up. At this point how much of this is the kid genuinely believing he is a girl, how much is conditioning from the parents? 

  Now the kid is extremely happy, that should be the end of it. But I can't help feeling that this happiness is going to be short term, school later on is going to be brutal for the poor sod. Unless things have radically changed, just having ginger hair used to be a decade long sentence of mental and physical abuse. I've no idea what this kid is going to get. His school has said they have no issue with the make up or girls uniform being worn etc.

  This is where I get the little angel and devil on my shoulders going off at each other. One says crikey don't encourage it, let him get through school with his head down and then go from there; the parents shouldn't be encouraging this. The other is saying if the kid is happy then what's the problem, no one has the right to say what you can and can't be.

  I honestly don't know what would be worse in terms of mental health. Would suppressing the feelings create a massive issue, or would dealing with the sack-load of bullying, mental anguish etc on top of what you normally get from attending school create more damage? Are the feelings just temporary, I know at that age if I could have dressed up and identified as Robin Hood 24/7 then would have been set for a good while.

  Now is this just our generation's version of gay becoming accepted? I'm guessing or grandparents etc had the same feelings when that all came to the fore.

  I think with adults I'm more settled; do whatever you want in life which makes you happy as long as it doesn't hurt others. You're going to get dickhead give you abuse, that just because dickheads will always exist. I've met plenty of adults who have changed gender, right up into their 60's and your can see that they've wanted it their entire lives, just like the generations before who had to stay in the closet. So I'm convinced that the issue is real.

  I've also met people who have massive, massive mental health problems who are in the situation. I honestly don't know which came first, I wouldn't like to suggest policies or strategies to put in place without finding it what caused what. Is this even possible on a truly personal issue? But adults are adults and generally have the wherewithal to deal with what they wish to.

  With children, specifically 0-12 ish, I have a real problem with how the situation should be dealt with. Anti-vaxxers and the like have shown that our society has created some people who are simply not fit to be parents. But the medical profession seems to be struggling and falls into the same dilemma of do you treat as a mental disorder, do you pump with drugs, do you wait until after/before puberty. Schools seem to be just trying to avoid court cases.

  I think a lot will come down to how splintered, broken and unstructured our society has become, we haven't any provision set up to deal with how society has changed. The massive emergence of crippling anxiety, agoraphobia, self harm, eating disorders etc coming out in the young show how we desperately need a huge societal/cultural realignment.

  I think like the above emerging issues this gender issue emergence is probably another manifestation of having created an utterly broken society/culture where a significantly increasing proportion of people simply do not fit into. That's just it too, the adults were seeing with these problems are just the tip of the iceberg, give it 15/20 years and the issues are going to be staggering.

 I've always thought that each generation/nation/society should be judged by how they treated children. I don't want to know how people will look back and judge what's been created for our young

  

[crasmith]

7 hours ago, bayala said:

I can imagine jokes / views similar to those made above were expressed about homosexuals in the past (and still are). Now the western world has come a long way in advancing the rights of that section of society and the attitudes held towards them. 

Regarding gender identity and fluidity, I think society will become more accepting over time. I think it's easy to judge and joke until you experience this through someone close to you ie. friend, family member etc. Then you understand that at the end of the day we're all human. Regardless of x, y and/or z we all deserve to be treated with kindness and respect. 

✌️

Yes, there have been great strides made with advancing the rights of homosexuals, not without an extreme struggle over years. This struggle will be no different. 

Loving one another and acceptance goes a long way. The gender identity struggle is real as I have witnessed it first hand. I’ve seen it destroy lives and rebuild character in ones that I once thought were lost and gone. 

No matter my beliefs, or the next person, there is nothing to be gained by not respecting the feelings of others. I know that, while some may struggle for attention, it takes very little from me in the form of respect and non judgement to make this a better place for us all. 

[earthson]

Consenting adults yadda yadda, I'm good with all of that.  What bothers me is the new phenomenon of children being pushed into trans lifestyles.  Sure, kids like to experiment, but to treat a 9 or 12 year old as though they know who they are is pure idiocy; how many adults even know who they are!?

I know parents who revel in having a "different" (i.e.: gender fluid or homo/pansexual) child because it allows the parents to demonstrate how open-minded and trés moderne they are.  But when I see a picture of a pride parade with a 10 year old cross-dressing boy dancing for dollars from the spectators like it was a strip club, well, something seems off.

I'm pretty centrist when it comes to morals, religion and (ugh) politics.  And I will be standing there in 10 or 20 years laughing my ass off when being a masculine man or feminine woman is the new rebellion.  Live and let live, among consenting adults.

[dowjr1]

9 hours ago, Bucky McSwensen said:

Unsolicited soap box long rant time!

Go easy on washing eachothers balls fellas.  I understand that the majority opinion in most societies is that boys are boys and girls are girls.  It's simple and makes sense and if we can understand it, we can respect it.  The hard thing is respecting things we cant understand.

There may very well be a few gender fluid or non binary people here.  You cant tell by their avatar photo or user name.  But in my experience, queers like fancy shit like the rest of us, hell sometimes more.  Even if none out themselves publically they shouldnt have to.  I'd assume they are part of this community which I've always found welcoming and generous.

I used to think gays were weird until it clicked that most people like the opposite sex and some like the same.  Okay.  I dont feel that way but I can understand how some people like girls and some like boys.  Gender is binary, preference is binary. I can respect that.

But bisexuals are weird, pick a damn side! Until i spoke with one who wasnt blessed with the simplicity of only liking one sex.  They've struggled in ways I cant imagine and as a straight white male I've struggled plenty in finding love or sex (luckily got both going strong, yay monogomy) so I cant imagine adding in a whole other variable to the mix.  I cant understand someone who likes two genders but I can listen to the struggle and I can respect it.

Now we got trans.  That's just silly.  Until I met someone who explained it was sillier to not be honest with themselves.  I cant imagine anyone would opt to feel this way on a lark.  I will never understand what this is like, and I'm trying to respect it's even though its confusing as all hell.

Then we have nonbinary and who knows what else.  When does it end?  Maybe it doesnt.  But also maybe it doesnt matter.  The few trans and non binary people I've talked to about this are just trying to get through life without living a lie.

Anyways, this is a community of friendly people.  Non binary people are people no matter if we understand or respect their lives and journey.  they may be people we've done trades with.  They may have SLR dcs and be willing to share at a fair value.  They may have a disposable income to spend money (and that's the most important value a human can have)

I get that times are changing and pc culture has run amuck but cool it with the ball washing and congratulating eachother on being normal.

But that’s kind of the thing isn’t it? For many of these people it isn’t about getting through life...it’s about being abrasive and forcing others to speak and behave a certain way.  I’m an adult male and people should address me as Mr....which is how I address other male adults...but I don’t go crazy if they don’t.  I can’t make them address me that way.  With the exception of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction...people’s sex/gender is binary.  There is no such thing as “gender fluid.”  Something like “gender fluid” is a human construct designed for a specific purpose.

[canadianbeaver]

For many members of the community this is not a gay, school or movie thing. It is a gender identity adult role that is seems to be a new issue that can even be demanded in the workplace.

As it was in MrBeaver’s company. An employee thought of as female (or whatever it wanted to be) said she was non-binary. This meant no gender. Not related to relationship behaviour, as in gay. More like bodily function.

They are working on accommodating this.

CB

[joeypots]

I live about ten miles from Provincetown Massachusetts which is the summer vacation capitol for the LGBTQ community on the east coast of the USA.  There are loads of people around here who are clearly not fitting into the male-female construct. I'm not going to reiterate so much of what has been written here but there are a few points I can relate from personal experience.  The suffering people endure when they know their sexuality is not aligned with their body is real and severe. These things are not bonded and indivisible, they never have been, the rates of suicide among such people are shocking.   I grew up in a depressed mill city in Massachusetts and in the rough part of town there was a bar room, The Cosmopolitan Lounge, that was frequented by what we as kids called he-shes. 45 years ago that place was always packed on the weekends and it was considered the lowliest place in a low place. The point is, in my experience, these people have always been with us and have been persecuted for the way they were born. I know, the professionals say many trans kids grow out of it. I see  adults who are not growing out of it. What's happening now is that as the stigma declines they come out in droves. And, living in close proximity to a large concentration of people who have these" nonsense gender issues" I can't see any downside to letting them be whatever they want to be. Live and let live works for me. It's also a polite way of saying mind your own business.

[crasmith]

2 minutes ago, joeypots said:

I live about ten miles from Provincetown Massachusetts which is the summer vacation capitol for the LGBTQ community on the east coast of the USA.  There are loads of people around here who are clearly not fitting into the male-female construct. I'm not going to reiterate so much of what has been written here but there are a few points I can relate from personal experience.  The suffering people endure when they know their sexuality is not aligned with their body is real and severe. These things are not bonded and indivisible, they never have been, the rates of suicide among such people are shocking.   I grew up in a depressed mill city in Massachusetts and in the rough part of town there was a bar room, The Cosmopolitan Lounge, that was frequented by what we as kids called he-shes. 45 years ago that place was always packed on the weekends and it was considered the lowliest place in a low place. The point is, in my experience, these people have always been with us and have been persecuted for the way they were born. I know, the professionals say many trans kids grow out of it. I see  adults who are not growing out of it. What's happening now is that as the stigma declines they come out in droves. And, living in close proximity to a large concentration of people who have these" nonsense gender issues" I can't see any downside to letting them be whatever they want to be. Live and let live works for me. It's also a polite way of saying mind your own business.

So true. Born that way for sure. It is in numbers that there is strength. 

Well said. 

[Fuzz]

The problem I see is all these terms; straight, gay, lesbian, trans, cis, non-binary, pansexual, etc etc ad nauseum. Why do you have to identify yourself as belonging to a specific group?

You are you, nothing more need be said. You like girls? Fine. You like boys? Fine You like both? The more, the merrier. You're a male/female who feels more comfortable in clothing traditionally prescribed to the opposite sex? More power to you. You're male/female who feels more comfortable with genitalia of the opposite sex? Ok, that's a bit of extreme body modification, but no more extreme than tattooing yourself head to toe or getting tens of thousands of dollars worth of plastic surgery.

Biologically, there are 2 sexes for the human species, male and female. Beyond that, we're all just confusing ourselves. Get rid of all the tags and just be whoever you are... as long as you cause no harm or persecution.

[GasGuy82]

As a white, 30-something male, living in Northern California, the epicenter of much of this revolution, I've learned to be very accepting and understanding of different points of view, I consider myself to be socially liberal (do what you want within reason) and fiscally conservative (keep my $$$ and let society re-learn self-sufficiency); which in California makes me an extremist  and in the rest of the country makes me moderate/libertarian/liberal. My only real issue with this new wave of self-identification is the way it is being politically weaponized and used as a cudgel. I think much of America who has reservations with regards to these issues are driven that way by the hyper-politicization and political correctness of it all. I think much of America would be happy to sit back and take bets on where this will go. Either we are going to have a great show or it will enrich society, or both. It's disingenuous for the same people who have felt marginalized for so many years to use this issue to attempt to marginalize what I imagine is the majority of society.

[Kitchen]

17 hours ago, HumidorJuan said:

The front line for the Gender neutral thing is in the pronoun. Trans and non binary people like to be called “they” or “them”.  Good luck getting that one right. 

I will use the preferred he or she depending on what that person wants.  But I just can not bring myself to change my concept of plurality and singularity because of a person's insecurity.  They and them are for more then one person, not just one, and I will continue to only use those pronouns for that purpose.  

 

Insofar as all of the other gender BS, much of our concept of gender very much depends on the period of time we live.  Men use to be the largest users of make-up.  Blue use to be the color for a girl.  Men were the first to start wearing high heals.  Many cultures had gender neutral clothing, and bathrooms, long before this period.  

So far as I have read, there are only a few things that have been proven to be biologically male and biologically female.   

[BoliDan]

39 minutes ago, Kitchen said:

They and them are for more then one person, not just one, and I will continue to only use those pronouns for that purpose. 

I've seen that being used on a different forum... I was scratching my head asking "Why are they calling that girl they"? I know people don't want be called an object... but wouldn'y "It" more appropriate. Or just make up a new word, don't redefine a word reserved for plurals. 

[TBird55]

I realized when I posted this, albeit a bit crass, that it would elicit a wide range of responses. Maybe I am out of touch with where the world and civilization as a whole is headed. To me boology dictates that a man is a male, and a woman is a female, period end of debate. From my perspective trying to group people into whatever gender they supposedly identify with, does nothing to bring people together, it just keeps them apart. As for the sexual aspect (nothing to do with gender), wheather straight, gay, bi, trans, ect., to each his own. 

[El Presidente]

1 hour ago, TBird55 said:

I realized when I posted this, albeit a bit crass, that it would elicit a wide range of responses. Maybe I am out of touch with where the world and civilization as a whole is headed. To me boology dictates that a man is a male, and a woman is a female, period end of debate. From my perspective trying to group people into whatever gender they supposedly identify with, does nothing to bring people together, it just keeps them apart. As for the sexual aspect (nothing to do with gender), wheather straight, gay, bi, trans, ect., to each his own. 

The thread was enlightening indeed. 

I have to say that I am surprised at the level of overall member willingness to try and understand/ accommodate fellow human beings as opposed to belittling them.  

In a world of black and white/left and right +15 second screen grabs, the thread proved to be a little uplifting. It certainly made me think a little. ......which is always a good thing 

[JoeyBones777]

11 hours ago, Zigatoh said:

I hadn't realised this until looking into it now, so this discussion is educational at least, but apparently until the 1970's and even up to the mid 1980's homosexuality was considered a mental disorder! How things change over time.

This is not apples to apples comparison, however. When homosexuality wasn't excepted socially their suicide attempt rate was no where near where the transgender community is today. We are also talking about being physically biologically male and your brain thinks you are female or vice versa, gender dysphoria, which is completely different from sexual attraction which is not fully biologically driven according to identical twin studies although I do believe there is a biological component. Also, there is minimal decrease in the attempted suicide rate of transgendered individuals who have undergone full on sex change. Why? There is much more to this issue and it is going to get worse not better in the direction we are going with it. A Brown University study, although controversial, shows teenagers are more likely to become transgender due to peer pressure and online social influences which muddies the waters even more making it difficult to sort all this stuff out and truly help people. Treat them with love and respect, yes, but it is not loving to go along with something that is killing them when we could be focusing on how to truly help them.

[cmbarton]

2 hours ago, El Presidente said:

The thread was enlightening indeed. 

I have to say that I am surprised at the level of overall member willingness to try and understand/ accommodate fellow human beings as opposed to belittling them.  

In a world of black and white/left and right +15 second screen grabs, the thread proved to be a little uplifting. It certainly made me think a little. ......which is always a good thing 

I’m glad I turned off my old timey Westerns long enough to read this thread.  I may always have my traditional definitions of gender, of what a masculine man is and what a feminine woman is, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the right of people to exist the way they want to exist.  I don’t claim to have all the answers or know how the world today works, but I’m smart enough to know everyone deserves to be respected.

[JamesKPolkEsq]

2 hours ago, JoeyBones777 said:

There is minimal decrease in the attempted suicide rate of transgendered individuals who have undergone full on sex change. 

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

This does not follow from the current meta research - see the above link. 

"We identified 56 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 52 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings"

[crasmith]

26 minutes ago, cmbarton said:

I’m glad I turned off my old timey Westerns long enough to read this thread.  I may always have my traditional definitions of gender, of what a masculine man is and what a feminine woman is, but that doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the right of people to exist the way they want to exist.  I don’t claim to have all the answers or know how the world today works, but I’m smart enough to know everyone deserves to be respected.

So very true. Everyone is deserving of that. Well said. ?

[akpreacher]

Haven’t read most of the replies but I just wanted to thank the OP for posting the least politically correct title I’ve seen in a long time! Very refreshing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deeg]

One thing I believe should be pointed out: do those arguing that there’s some sort of peer pressure pushing kids to think they’re transgender not see a contradiction with the undisputed high rates of depression and suicide among transgender kids?  The idea that kids would choose a life that’s inherently more difficult and will subject them to abuse and prejudice is, frankly, absurd (and the Brown University study referenced earlier was so shoddy in terms of methodology that the school itself has disavowed it).

[Kitchen]

Even though I hold no ill will towards people who take all of this gender stuff seriously, I am so glad that I am not in the dating world anymore.  I don't know if I could keep up with all this and would probably offend a decent amount just by accident.  

Actually I think this is pretty much the cause for a lot of the young people out there.  I saw an article recently titled something along the lines of, "If You're In Your 20s, Your Mom Has Had Sex with More People By Your Age Then You Ever Will."  

[Kingme29]

In Berkeley, CA Manholes shall henceforth and forevermore be known as Maintenance Holes.

Some of this borders on the absurd.

https://fortune.com/2019/07/18/berkeley-gender-neutral-ordinance-terms/

[Ken Gargett]

22 minutes ago, Kingme29 said:

In Berkeley, CA Manholes shall henceforth and forevermore be known as Maintenance Holes.

Some of this borders on the absurd.

https://fortune.com/2019/07/18/berkeley-gender-neutral-ordinance-terms/

i know most of us think this PC stuff is new but it is not. it has been going on for years. when i arrived in london mid 80s to study, mayor ken livingstone had just had the kids' nursery rhyme 'baa baa black sheep' banned for racism. it just boggles the mind that people have nothing better to do than waste time on this sort of idiocy. 

[El Presidente]

34 minutes ago, Kingme29 said:

In Berkeley, CA Manholes shall henceforth and forevermore be known as Maintenance Holes.

Some of this borders on the absurd.

https://fortune.com/2019/07/18/berkeley-gender-neutral-ordinance-terms/

I will always call them "manholes". 

I have no doubt that my grandkids will call them "maintenance holes". 

Impact on my life  = zero .....unless they start fining me for calling them "manholes". If that ever occurs....then we have a problem. 

[El Presidente]

13 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

i know most of us think this PC stuff is new but it is not. it has been going on for years. when i arrived in london mid 80s to study, mayor ken livingstone had just had the kids' nursery rhyme 'baa baa black sheep' banned for racism. it just boggles the mind that people have nothing better to do than waste time on this sort of idiocy. 

...and I will still sing baa baa black sheep to the grand kids/nephews/nieces.