Impact of the new Coronavirus where you are?

[SigmundChurchill]

On 4/18/2020 at 5:18 PM, SigmundChurchill said:

I have seen this before, and I think she is trying to put a spin on what the CDC was trying to say.

The COVID 19 death toll is currently underestimated because many people who it has killed have not been tested.  There are many times the cause of death is listed based on symptomatology with no definitive test.  A test has never been a requirement for “cause of death” before, so why are we treating this disease differently? 

If someone clutches their chest, complaining of a sharp pain down their arm and it feels like an elephant is sitting on their chest, and they die before the EMTs get there, it is fine to list “myocardial infarction” (heart attack) as the cause of death.  Too many doctors have been hesitant to do that with COVID-19 without a test, even if all the symptoms pointed to that.  

For example, here in COVID-ravaged NJ, 17 people were found dead in one nursing home.  Does it really matter if they are tested, or is it enough to say, “Hey, this has never happened before.  COVID-19 causes old people to stop breathing and die very quickly.  We can assume that this nursing home had a COVID-19 outbreak.”

Look, there is a very easy way to check if the numbers are accurate.  Just take the number of deaths for the average month, and subtract the number of deaths for that month this year.  The average death rate NYC mid-March through mid-April was 13,000 deaths higher, than the same time period in any recent year.  And dont forget, the shooting deaths, motor vehicle deaths, etc, were all lower than other years because of the shutdown.  This means at 10,000, the COVID-19 deaths are being grossly underestimated.  The CDC is trying to get a more accurate count.  But the political forces are doing what they can to make this attempt out to be nefarious in nature.

Just an update, in the time since I posted this, this nursing home went from 17 deaths yesterday, to 70 deaths at the nursing home tonight.  

[SigmundChurchill]

1 hour ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

Bit of a touchy weekend here, Daughter who works at a local long term home(with no cases yet thankfully) for the aged, came down with a bad cough/slight breathing problem on sat.morn at work 

Immediately left and got tested. As she works where she does, rushed test confirmed negative late today. Thankfully is feeling better , with only slight cough persisting. Stay safe folks!!

I have seen my share of false negatives.  It is fairly common.  I hope it really is a true negative, but given her specific symptoms, she needs to still be careful.  

[JamesKPolkEsq]

A friend of mine from college, very healthy (low BMI, low BP, no lung issues) had COVID-19 and is recovering. Her words:

For me, it started with a cough. It was dry. It wasn't too bad. I thought I would get to escape easily. I hid in my apartment, and hoped it would pass. It didn't. Then it did. Then there was some fever. But I was alone, and the internet in America is out of thermometers, so I couldn't take my temperature. But when I sweated through my pants while sitting quietly, I decided probably... I had it. 

Being alone and being your own nurse is a thing. You have to pay attention to your body in a way that is disorientating and unfair, while your body is being disorienting and unfair. This thing comes in waves. Use those moments where you feel fine and think you've kicked to make all the food you might want to eat. For me, was soup. had no idea how bad it would get. I am so grateful I made soup for many when it was just me and an uncertain future. This thing kills your appetite, and you have to eat anyway.

- The scary breathing didn't start until over two weeks in. The only thing that helped was an albuterol inhaler a doctor friend prescribed and steaming my lungs with near boiling water, eucalyptus and a towel over my head. Also, the recent things I've read suggest don't sleep on your back. Stay prone if you can, if the breathing gets bad, like an athlete trying to bike up the last hill. Basically, more of your lung volume is in your back than you think. And you need every single alveoli to work that can. I don't smoke, and craved more soft pink lung tissue as I wheezed through a night and tried to figure out if I needed to brave an overworked NYC hospital. 

- There is a lot of new (and this all new) research that as much motion you can do is important. Turns out a bunch of your lung volume is in your back. You need that volume. In hospitals they are putting people on their fronts to avoid putting them on ventilators. Luckily this was intuitive to me. I felt uncomfortable on my back. Sleep on your side if you can. Do yoga. Do breathing exercises, no matter how annoying. - Have a friend to check in with. Alone and sick is hard. And friends will worry. But you need a plan to get out. - I love and miss you all.

Four weeks out, I still get chest pain. And I'm really lucky that this thing that keeps taking people I love and people people I love away didn't take me. But the rest of you, even the young and mighty, act like you already have it.

[TheGipper]

10 minutes ago, JamesKPolkEsq said:

Turns out a bunch of your lung volume is in your back. You need that volume. In hospitals they are putting people on their fronts to avoid putting them on ventilators.

There's been a lot of chatter among the front line doctors about this lately.  Good explainer from Professor Downham.

 

[Fuzz]

On 4/6/2020 at 11:42 PM, Fuzz said:

Our criteria in NSW for testing is not just based on symptoms. They will ask the following questions:

1. Have you recently come from overseas?
2. Have you been on a cruise ship recently?
3. Have you been in contact with somebody who has recently come from overseas or on a cruise ship?
4. Have you come into contact with somebody who has been diagnosed with Covid-19? (they will want that person's name)
5. Are you a healthcare worker or work in aged care?

If you answer no to these questions, you won't be tested. They will tell you to go home and self-isolate, and if your symptoms get worse, to call an ambulance.

Update:

NSW Govt has expanded the test criteria to anyone who has had fever/flu like symptoms in the last 2 months, so I got a telehealth consult on Saturday. Doc was 50/50 on my symptoms, but leaning towards testing, due to the fact it was still lingering. Doc knew of a testing lab that had a pretty fast turn around time that was testing on weekends, so off I go. Testing was conducted in the car park, so you don't have to leave your vehicle. Dude explained how the test was conducted, then proceeded to shove the swab up my nose till it popped out the back of my head. In and out within five minutes, but have to wait 2 days till the results come back.

Got a call from the doc this morning, results are negative for Covid-19. Happy that I now have confirmation, but still wondering why the fudge I still have a slightly wheezy chest. Doc was a bit puzzled by that too, but as I am slowly getting better, he thinks it is just the lingering effects of the flu. If it gets worse, said I should come in for an examination. Now hopefully, my anxiety will start playing nice and give me a break for a while.

Once there is a semblance of normalcy and we can start going out again, I'm gonna be like...

[El Presidente]

Great News Chris 

[LordAnubis]

Damn @Fuzz... Glad you're not dying... we can prolong our mockery of you now... 

[Ken Gargett]

59 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

, still wondering why the fudge I still have a slightly wheezy chest. Doc was a bit puzzled by that too, but as I am slowly getting better, he thinks it is just the lingering effects of the flu. If it gets worse, said I should come in for an examination. Now hopefully, my anxiety will start playing nice and give me a break for a while.

 

fuzz, don't take this the wrong but you are on a cigar forum wondering about a slightly wheezy chest. there may be people in the community who might leap to a conclusion. not us, of course, but...

[Fuzz]

28 minutes ago, LordAnubis said:

Damn @Fuzz... Glad you're not dying... we can prolong our mockery of you now... 

Yeah, you can't have that bottle of wine I left for you in my will just yet.

4 minutes ago, Ken Gargett said:

fuzz, don't take this the wrong but you are on a cigar forum wondering about a slightly wheezy chest. there may be people in the community who might leap to a conclusion. not us, of course, but...

Well, there is that, but I actually haven't had a cigar since the HdM Escogidos we had on your deck. So it has been more than 6 weeks since my last cigar. Probably be another 2 more weeks before I light up again.

 

[El Presidente]

32 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Well, there is that, but I actually haven't had a cigar since the HdM Escogidos we had on your deck.

Explains it all. 

Your body wasn't ready for a visit to kens deck. Understandably, massive shock to the systems. 

God knows what you picked up but if you survive the KBG Pathogen, should you ever contract CV-19...it  will be a walk in the park.

[bpm32]

1 hour ago, Fuzz said:

Update:

That’s great news, Fuzz. Hope you’re 100% soon!

Heh, Human Bender. Definitely in the Top 5 for me.

[Ken Gargett]

9 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I have been to plenty of "wet markets" throughout China and Asia + the Pacific Islands.  

They are simply markets and have existed since man began to trade. They won't be shutting them anytime soon. Proper regulation of  animals sold however is an achievable outcome if there was a will. 

 

interesting article on closing wet markets and the difficulties. 

The coronavirus likely came from China’s wet markets. They’re reopening anyway.

Should wet markets be banned? It’s more complicated than it seems.

By Sigal Samuel  Apr 15, 2020, 11:40am EDT

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Finding the best ways to do good.

The consensus among scientists who specialize in emerging infectious diseases is that the novel coronavirus jumped from animals to humans at one of China’s wet markets, places where live animals are often slaughtered and sold for human consumption — including, in some cases, wildlife like bats and pangolins.

After the outbreak of the Covid-19 disease, China temporarily closed down the wet markets. In February, it also banned the sale of wildlife for consumption, making it illegal to sell wild animals (but not common live animals such as chickens or fish) as food.

Now, the country is reopening some of its wet markets — even as the global uproar over them is reaching a crescendo. Although the ban on selling wildlife remains in effect at the markets, the move is still controversial, and a growing chorus of experts is calling for a permanent ban on the markets in China and beyond.

“I think we should shut down those things right away,” Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said of wet markets in an April 3 television interview. “It boggles my mind how when we have so many diseases that emanate out of that unusual human-animal interface, that we don’t just shut it down.”

The United Nations’ biodiversity chief, Elizabeth Maruma Mrema, shared that perspective. In fact, she appeared to want to ban the sale of all live animals, not just wild ones. “It would be good to ban the live animal markets,” she said in an April 6 interview with the Guardian. “The message we are getting is if we don’t take care of nature, it will take care of us.”

A wet market closed for disinfection during a “movement control order” to combat the Covid-19 outbreak in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on March 25. Mohd Daud/NurPhoto via Getty Images

A bipartisan group of more than 60 US lawmakers also called for a ban on wet markets in an April 8 letter to the World Health Organization (WHO), the World Organization for Animal Health, and the UN. “Market vendors cage animals of different species in close proximity, where the animals are likely to urinate, defecate, and potentially bleed or salivate on the animals below them,” the lawmakers wrote, explaining why the markets create the perfect conditions for pathogens to jump between animal species and then to humans.

Meanwhile, a new survey conducted by GlobeScan for the World Wildlife Fund asked 5,000 participants from Hong Kong, Japan, Myanmar, Thailand, and Vietnam what they think about markets that sell wildlife (as some, but not all, wet markets do). It found that 93 percent of respondents were likely to support action by their governments to eliminate illegal and unregulated wildlife markets. And 84 percent said they were unlikely or very unlikely to buy wildlife products in the future.

But the campaign to shut down these markets is more complicated than it seems. Part of the problem is one of definition. China has some open-air markets that sell only slaughtered animals and produce; some that sell commonly eaten live animals like chickens; and some that sell wild animals like bats.

Many people conflate all these under the heading “wet market.” But there are gradations here, and they represent different levels of risk for zoonotic diseases (those transmitted from animals to humans). There is some zoonotic risk anytime live animals are kept in close quarters, but the danger may be especially pronounced with wild animals; their pathogens are ones to which we haven’t had the chance to develop immunity.

Another issue is that there are socioeconomic as well as cultural factors to consider. Some experts caution that millions of low-income people would lose access to cheap sources of food, and many farmers would lose out on needed income, in the case of an all-out ban on wet markets.

These nuances are crucial to understanding why a permanent ban keeps proving elusive, even though a Chinese wet market carrying live animals was also linked to the 2003 SARS outbreak, and even though we all desperately want to prevent future pandemics.

China’s wet markets, explained

Let’s get two things straight up front. First, wet markets aren’t unique to China. They’re common in many parts of the world, including several Asian, African, and Latin American countries. But because the coronavirus originated in China, we’ll focus on the markets there.

Second, wet markets and wildlife markets aren’t synonymous, though they’re often used interchangeably. This semantic slippage is actually driving a lot of the confusion in the debate about whether to ban all wet markets.

A seafood vendor talks to a customer at a wet market in Shanghai, China, on February 13. Noel Celis/AFP via Getty Images

One recent study offered this very clear definition of wet markets: “A typical wet market is a partially open commercial complex with vending stalls organized in rows; they often have slippery floors and narrow aisles along which independent vendors primarily sell ‘wet’ items such as meat, poultry, seafood, vegetables, and fruits.”

Note that there’s nothing about wildlife in this definition. That’s because a wet market doesn’t necessarily include “exotic” wild animals. According to Christos Lynteris and Lyle Fearnley, two anthropologists who study disease in China, the disproportionate focus on “exotic” food consumption is often tinged with Orientalism and anti-Chinese sentiment:

In Western media, “wet markets” are portrayed as emblems of Chinese otherness: chaotic versions of oriental bazaars, lawless areas where animals that should not be eaten are sold as food, and where what should not be mingled comes together (seafood and poultry, serpents and cattle). This fuels Sinophobia.

In reality, most seafood, live animal and wholesale markets in China contain far less exotic fare. An enormous variety of different kinds of market are confusingly lumped within the term “wet market,” a term that originated in Hong Kong and Singapore English to distinguish markets selling fresh meat and produce from “dry” markets selling packaged and durable goods such as textiles.

Among today’s wet markets, you’ll find some that sell no live animals whatsoever, just slaughtered animals and produce; some that carry common live animals like chickens or fish; and some that sell wildlife like bats and snakes.

While US lawmakers and other public figures talk about wanting to ban wet markets writ large, what they seem to really want to ban is the sale of wild animals — or perhaps any live animals — that sometimes occurs there. (Presumably they would have no problem with the wet markets that carry only slaughtered meat and produce; after all, the US is full of such markets.)

But in China, the wet markets are culturally treasured places, and not only because they are sources of affordable fresh food. For some, they also recall a vibrant and natural way of life, one that can’t be found in modern supermarket chains. Here’s how one man explained his love of the markets in a study:

Strolling at wet markets is my way of relaxation after exhausted workdays. I like wet markets because it has Yanhuoqi ... a sense of being alive. You cannot escape from the strong feeling of yanhuoqi in wet markets because you are always surrounded by diverse, vibrant foods, throngs of shoppers, and the loud voices of talking and vendor hawking. Everything comes alive in the market. Sitting in the office, I have no sense of season. The seasonal, colorful, fresh food in wet markets tell me the season.

Another man in the same study said he values the trust between food vendors and consumers, which gives him the sense of belonging to a community and assures him of the food’s freshness:

I have purchased pork nearly every day from the same pork vendor. We are acquaintances. He greets me every morning. He is very trustworthy. I know that he chose pigs from small farms in the nearby countryside. His pork is much fresher, more tender, and moister than the others.

Bearing in mind this culinary culture and how it helps people feel connected to their food sources and each other, the question is: Would an all-out ban on China’s wet markets make any more sense than an all-out ban on America’s farmers markets?

The problem with a total ban on wet markets

Experts disagree about exactly how far a ban should extend. Some say we need to ban just the sale of wild animals, while others say we need to ban all live animals from being slaughtered and sold in close quarters. But experts tend to agree that any responsible course of action will be more complex than simply banning wet markets altogether.

Deborah Cao, a professor at Griffith University in Australia and a leading scholar on Asian animal welfare, said wet markets in China are a lot like farmers markets in the US, but with one difference: Far more people get their food from wet markets.

Stalls inside a wet market are covered in plastic to enforce social distancing in Las Piñas, Philippines, on March 30. Ezra Acayan/Getty Images

“The food markets are open again, as they are part of life there. It is not possible to close down all the food markets,” Cao said. But she added that China can and should permanently ban stalls selling wildlife within the markets. She said she’d ideally also like to see a ban on all live animals there, since commonly eaten animals like chickens can also spread disease, but conceded that this “may be difficult in rural areas at the moment.”

Lynteris and Fearnley, the anthropologists, likewise argued that a permanent shutdown would do more harm than good, at least in China:

It would deprive Chinese consumers of a food sector that accounts for 30-59 percent of their food supplies. Due to the large number of farmers, traders, and consumers involved, the abolition of “wet markets” is also likely to lead to an explosion of an uncontrollable black market, as it did when such a ban was attempted in 2003, in response to SARS, as well as in 2013-14, in response to avian influenza H7N9.

This would involve enormously greater risk to public and global health than the legal and regulated live animal markets in China today. … What “wet markets” in China require is more scientific and evidence-based regulation, rather than being abolished and driven underground.

Although Mrema, the UN’s biodiversity chief, said “it would be good to ban the live animal markets,” she also warned it would need to be done delicately: “You have communities, particularly from low-income rural areas, particularly in Africa, which are dependent on wild animals to sustain the livelihoods of millions of people. So unless we get alternatives for these communities, there might be a danger of opening up illegal trade in wild animals which currently is already leading us to the brink of extinction for some species.”

It was out of economic necessity that some Chinese farmers began to breed wild animals in recent decades. As they struggled to live off the land, they discovered that they could supplement their income by turning to niche markets.

EXPERTS TEND TO AGREE THAT ANY RESPONSIBLE COURSE OF ACTION WILL BE MORE COMPLEX THAN SIMPLY BANNING WET MARKETS ALTOGETHER

But Peter Li, an associate professor of East Asian politics at the University of Houston-Downtown, said it would be possible to safeguard people’s income security while banning the sale of wildlife in Chinese wet markets.

“People who work in the wildlife industry represent a small percentage of China’s enormous labor force. And the majority of people working in wildlife trade also do something else,” Li said, adding that traders who are negatively affected by a ban should be given financial subsidies to ease the transition to other kinds of work. “When people stop working in these markets, they should get some help from the government.” That could make a surge in illegal trade less likely.

The role of wildlife in Chinese traditional medicine

“While China has banned the trade and consumption of wild animals in the wake of the Covid-19 outbreak,” notes the US lawmakers’ letter to the WHO and the UN, “there are significant loopholes relating to the current legal trade of wildlife for medicinal purposes.”

The lawmakers’ letter sounds a note of frustration about the fact that the Chinese government has exempted wildlife for traditional medicine from its ban. It’s easy to understand their annoyance. China adopted a similar approach after the 2003 SARS outbreak but eased restrictions once the outbreak was under control; 17 years later, things are right back where they started, but this time with a disease that’s killing even more people.

In recent years, wildlife products — like the scales of the endangered pangolin — have become popular among a small (but rich and powerful) minority in China. Breeders have hyped the products’ supposed health benefits, citing ancient Chinese texts that say they make people more robust, virile, and free of disease.

Cao called these “bogus claims of medicinal or healing or nutritional benefit without scientific basis.” She said the sale of wild animals for this purpose should absolutely be stopped.

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Li emphasized that Westerners shouldn’t be fooled into thinking that Chinese consumers must be allowed access to wildlife products because it’s part of their ancient culture. While there are classic Chinese texts extolling the healing properties of certain wildlife products, it’s not as though millions of people have been reading these texts and clamoring for such products of their own accord.

Instead, “the demand for wildlife products has been created by the industry for commercial purposes, for profit. Traditional Chinese medicine has been used,” Li said. “I have never seen a document by Chinese consumers telling the government, ‘Please, farm tigers!’ But I have seen documents by wildlife breeders telling the government, ‘Let us farm these animals so we can sell these products.’”

Will China keep its ban on wildlife sales?

The sale of wildlife in wet markets creates a serious risk of pandemics because it forces together animal species that would not encounter each other under ordinary circumstances, and then puts human beings in contact with these animals’ pathogens, to which we haven’t had the chance to develop any immunity. Many experts and even wet market aficionados now agree that the risk to human health is just too great.

In theory, it should be possible for China to permanently ban the sale of wildlife in wet markets without endangering many people’s food security, income security, and valued culinary culture by banning wet markets altogether.

But that would require the government to stop kowtowing to the wildlife farming industry, which has immense lobbying power, Li said.

For now, China is still banning sales of wildlife, with the exception of sales for medicinal purposes. What remains to be seen is whether, as in the case of the SARS outbreak, the government will lift this restriction after the world gets Covid-19 under control — or whether it will finally learn its lesson.

[Fuzz]

Technically speaking, the Sydney Fish Markets (or any fish market for that matter) can be considered a wet market.

 

[Ryan]

20 minutes ago, Fuzz said:

Technically speaking, the Sydney Fish Markets (or any fish market for that matter) can be considered a wet market.

 

Yes, along with every cattle, sheep, goat, horse and pig market in the world. Where live animals are sold.

It's true that in "the west" most consumers don't buy their food live. But farmers and breeders need to buy and sell live animals. And I'm sure that Ireland isn't alone in that small town market days are social occasions. Not just farmers go along to hang out and meet up. 

It's probably a fact of life that as long as we hunt or breed and eat animals, diseases that evolved in them will make the jump and start killing us. as they always have. Measles, smallpox, tuberculosis, influenza etc. It's just that most of these have been around long enough that we have either vaccines or some natural immunity. As we have all found out, there are still new ones out there.

[Kitchen]

10 hours ago, BellevilleMXZ said:

Oh and since there seems to be a few very knowledgeable USA folks here, what do you make of the JH charts? I have watched very little news as of late(usually watch a fair bit) and used to check the JH chart many times a day. I now am staying away from it all, just due to the fact, it was really starting to effect me in a bad way.

Looking at the chart tonight after not looking since Friday, the USA seems to be getting almost out of control. Is this the case? Yes they have done 3.8 mil tests,  , but they are up to 759,000 infections? I don't see the  amount of tests done elsewhere, nor do I really wish to dig through all the bad news to try and find them. Does not look good.....They look to be on par with france by rough estimate?

NYC is screwed, more then likely due to its density and that the subway is the most used form of transportation by a significant margin, but the rest of the country is fairing pretty well it seems.  Even in NYC, the health care system has not been overrun, which it was predicted to be.  With that said, NYC is screwed economically and I don't see it recovering in less then a year.  I know several people in NYC who already moved back home because they no longer could afford rent, which will have a huge ripple effect.  

We are starting to do more random testing, albeit private labs, and finding many many more people have or have had this then what we know.  For instance, they started randomly testing pregnant women in NYC last week and found 15% of them have C-19 with 14 percentage points not even showing symptoms.  I think this is encouraging since it will drastically bring down the fatality rates.  Another good sign is that, as of a few days ago, only 29 young and healthy New Yorkers died from this, another encouraging sign.  

The Netherlands just did a study and found that 3% of the country already had it.  If you adjust the denominator of the fatality equation to being 3% of the population, the fatality there drops from 11% to 0.6%.  Then if you break down the data for age, it gets very good for those under 50, albeit pretty bad for those over 65.  Essential, by doing this, the fatality rate for 0 to 24 is 0% and for 25 to 49 it is 0.1%.  For above 65 it is 20%.  

If this is true, for the most part, the young do not need to worry about this anymore then dying in a car accident, especially if you are healthy.  Sure, there will be flukes, but that is the case with everything but we should not give into hysteria over it (which I certainly am not).  If you're 65 or older, I would be take a good deal of precaution though. 

Of course two things can be true at once.  This can have a very low fatality rate while at the same time being highly contagious so a lot of people get it at once still causing a lot of death.    However, I still do not feel this is something to panic over for younger people given the odds we are  discovering.  

[SigmundChurchill]

31 minutes ago, Kitchen said:

NYC is screwed, more then likely due to its density and that the subway is the most used form of transportation by a significant margin, but the rest of the country is fairing pretty well it seems.  Even in NYC, the health care system has not been overrun, which it was predicted to be.  With that said, NYC is screwed economically and I don't see it recovering in less then a year.  I know several people in NYC who already moved back home because they no longer could afford rent, which will have a huge ripple effect.  

We are starting to do more random testing, albeit private labs, and finding many many more people have or have had this then what we know.  For instance, they started randomly testing pregnant women in NYC last week and found 15% of them have C-19 with 14 percentage points not even showing symptoms.  I think this is encouraging since it will drastically bring down the fatality rates.  Another good sign is that, as of a few days ago, only 29 young and healthy New Yorkers died from this, another encouraging sign.  

The Netherlands just did a study and found that 3% of the country already had it.  If you adjust the denominator of the fatality equation to being 3% of the population, the fatality there drops from 11% to 0.6%.  Then if you break down the data for age, it gets very good for those under 50, albeit pretty bad for those over 65.  Essential, by doing this, the fatality rate for 0 to 24 is 0% and for 25 to 49 it is 0.1%.  For above 65 it is 20%.  

If this is true, for the most part, the young do not need to worry about this anymore then dying in a car accident, especially if you are healthy.  Sure, there will be flukes, but that is the case with everything but we should not give into hysteria over it (which I certainly am not).  If you're 65 or older, I would be take a good deal of precaution though. 

Of course two things can be true at once.  This can have a very low fatality rate while at the same time being highly contagious so a lot of people get it at once still causing a lot of death.    However, I still do not feel this is something to panic over for younger people given the odds we are  discovering.  

I agree with this post.  We will eventually have to learn to live with this virus, like we have all other viruses.  The biggest problem, and I dont think I am being biased here, is avoiding the overwhelming of the health care systems around the country.  This leads to even more deaths than is necessary.  I am in the unique situation to personally witness the ways that both COVID and non-COVID patients, alike, are dying due to the health care system’s inability to handle the volume.  

We cant open operating rooms to non-emergencies because of the COVID risks.  There are needed cancer surgeries that are not being done, because the patients with these cancers are even more susceptible to COVID-19, and are even more likely to die from it.  I have no doubt that treatable cancers are metastasizing and becoming untreatable cancers as a result.  

We are doing shortened versions of CPR because the act of CPR aerosolizes the virus, and risks the healthcare workers who have no time to properly gear up in the setting of a sudden cardiopulmonary arrest.

ER’s are turning people away, and The ones they dont turn away are not getting the proper attention for things that they otherwise would be.

If we could just get to the point where these COVID patients and COVID deaths are at a trickle, then we can live with COVID-19 and get back to some sort of normalcy. 

[Nino]

Germany to cover costs of European Union coronavirus patients

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/germany-cover-costs-of-foreign-coronavirus-patients-12658940

BERLIN: Germany will foot the bill for treating novel coronavirus patients taken in from European Union neighbour countries as a gesture of goodwill, Health Minister Jens Spahn said Monday (Apr 20).

Germany has been spared the worst of the coronavirus crisis seen in some of its hard-hit European neighbours, and has taken in patients - mainly from France and Italy - to relieve pressure on their overburdened healthcare systems.

READ: With COVID-19 'under control', Germany begins opening up

A total of 229 foreign patients have been treated in Germany, a spokesman for the foreign ministry said Monday - 130 from France, 44 from Italy and 55 from the Netherlands.

Their treatment has so far cost about 20 million euros (US$21.7 million), according to Spahn.

"Germany will cover the treatment costs of these patients, that is what we understand by European solidarity," Spahn said ahead of a meeting of ministers tackling the virus crisis on Monday.

"The willingness and capacity is there to admit more if necessary," he added.

The number of coronavirus deaths and infections in Germany has remained well below some of its neighbours.

As of Monday, Europe's biggest economy had over 140,000 confirmed cases and 4,404 deaths, while Spain and Italy have reported more than 20,000 deaths each. France has close to 20,000 fatalities while Britain has more than 16,000.

Germany had 28,000 intensive care beds before the start of the crisis and has since increased that number to 30,000.

Over 12,600 beds remained free Sunday according to the Interdisciplinary Association for Intensive and Emergency Medicine (DIVI).

Spahn's announcement came as many parts of Germany prepared to reopen some shops and schools on Monday after weeks of lockdown.

The health minister said Friday the pandemic was "under control".

[99call]

14 hours ago, El Presidente said:

I have been to plenty of "wet markets" throughout China and Asia + the Pacific Islands.  

They are simply markets and have existed since man began to trade. They won't be shutting them anytime soon. Proper regulation of  animals sold however is an achievable outcome if there was a will. 

 

Similarly to most, I find the storing and killing of protected species, or inhumane treatment of any animals that are bound for the table to be morally reprehensible. Yet I do think that most are missing the role that poverty has played in the development in certain cuisines around the world.   I think that most assume the eating of things like bats, is just someone wanting to be adventurous, or that consuming of certain foods, imparts it's powers (Rhino horn etc).   but whether it be bugs, land snails, fish eyes etc etc.   most of this was historically just born out of extreme poverty, and somehow left a lasting blueprint on the culture and cuisine. 

I think all countries,  whether is be Icelands rotting buried shark meat, Italian Cazu Marzu cheese crawling with maggots etc etc You can bet your bottom dollar they never started out as top end specialities, rather sustenance in the hardest of times. 

Again I do find the poor treatment of animals is something that desperately needs to come under regulation, but for those who have been to wonderful markets all over the world, often they have a great deal more positive about them, than going down a path, where peoples variety of diet is either hot dogs, or burgers.............oh and I don't mean actual hot dogs!. 

It would be great if a balance could be reached where,  the variety, vibrancy, freshness and theatre of the markets were maintained, but the cruelty, hygiene, protected species act, all came under tighter regulation.  

 

[JamesKPolkEsq]

Italian town of 4,646 is 70% seropositive.

Their death rate? 

1.6% in eight weeks. 

The virus has torn through too many communities for a 0.1% CFR to be believed without extraordinary documented evidence. 

 

[Nino]

I have been asked by my friend and fellow cigar smoker MRN to post this picture of him treating patients in his Hong Kong clinic last week.

As some of you may know he is an UK trained medical doctor, and directs a clinic in Hong Kong.

His message is simple : Please practise social distancing and wear facemasks.

So far Hong Kong has been in control of the Covid-19 virus.

 

 

[CigSid]

4 minutes ago, nino said:

I have been asked by my friend and fellow cigar smoker MRN to post this picture of him treating patients in his Hong Kong clinic last week.

As some of you may know he is an UK trained medical doctor, and directs a clinic in Hong Kong.

His message is simple : Please practise social distancing and wear facemasks.

So far Hong Kong has been in control of the Covid-19 virus.

 

Awesome Nino, thanks for sharing brother!!

[Nino]

7 minutes ago, CigSid said:

Awesome Nino, thanks for sharing brother!!

Pleasure.

BTW : He wants all to know he is part of a team effort to contain this medical crisis.

He is doing his best to make HK safe.

[Habana Mike]

So Georgia is opening up salons Friday and restaurants next Monday. Be interesting to see if we have another spike.

I'm staying in a little longer.

Oh, and 1000 posts in here!

[helix]

"I have been asked by my friend and fellow cigar smoker MRN to post this picture of him treating patients in his Hong Kong clinic last week.

As some of you may know he is an UK trained medical doctor, and directs a clinic in Hong Kong.

His message is simple : Please practise social distancing and wear facemasks.

So far Hong Kong has been in control of the Covid-19 virus."

A HERO .THANKS MAN.

[helix]

I feel very humbled by the selflessness of frontline health workers (soldiers really), first responders, all the folks in the service industry, food, mail, couriers/delivery ,corner store clerks , all essential workers ,  too many to list. But bye God I will always remember and respect these people forever. We owe them an incompensable debt of gratitude .