Your Favourite Grape Right Now?

[Fugu]

15 hours ago, gweilgi said:

Sorry, but I am scarred by youthful experiences.  I grew up at a time when German Rieslings came in sweet ("halbtrocken") or dry, which meant sour.  Couldn't stomach either.

Haha, mate, you are late by 30 years! Likewise, I grew up with the infamous Müller-Thurgau! You had it better!

The German classification system - still - is one of the most complicated in the wine world. But that is also reflecting the complexity of the 'matter'. With comparatively new categories such as the Großes Gewächs (GG) and now more openly classifying and indicating quality vineyards, first growths etc., they long moved away from the pure must-weight centered, i.e. sugar-content oriented old classification. But there is still room for improvement with regard to transparency, and a lot of (home)work is left to / needs being done by the consumer. But quite true and a shame, the German wine-law from 1971 did much damage to the former quality and reputation, with its focus on "Oechsle". And with its misleading site/vineyard naming and the over-stretching of appellation borders. But most of that has already and still is about to be corrected since. And also well before, there have always been quality-producers for whom "sugar" had always only been a proxy and a means to an end and not a quality token in its own.

Still, in the end it all comes down to the single producer.

15 hours ago, gweilgi said:

German Rieslings

In fact, while I said it as well, there is no such thing as "German Rieslings". Whether coming from the blue and red slates of the sunlit mid-Mosel with its often 'playful' wines (but the region Mosel in itself and its producers is extremely heterogeneous already), from the old vines from the steepest vineyards of the Terrassenmosel, to the no-nonsene wines of the cooler Nahe banks and slopes. Once famous Rheingau "hock", wine of the emperors and kings..... or look at Rheinhessen alone - ranging from the volcanic soils of Alzey over the chalky slopes of Westhofen and Dalsheim, and as such almost bordering on 'burgundian' in stile (like could be said of a few Palatinates (Pinots as well!)), to the almost voluptuous wines from the red soils of the famous Rhine-facing slopes of the 'Roter Hang' (Rothenberg, Pettenthal). This all you can find within a mere fifty kilometres left-bank Rhine alone. All I can say - give them a second chance!

[Fugu]

10 hours ago, Colt45 said:

Their tan label is quite good as well, though I think there is a little canaiolo and colorino blended in. Another in this vein that I've always loved is Le Boncie's Le Trame - very sincere wine.

For what it's worth, I've a great dislike for cab and / or merlot blended with sangiovese. One that I don't mind too much though, Is Tua Rita Rosso Di Notri, but I think that it might be because there is some syrah along with cab and merlot.

As you are mentioning these, funnily those have been some of the wines/producers we had recently on my bday.

The 1999 Montevertine Rosso was as fresh as could be (plus - their cork is always top-notch). And Tua Rita's plain-Sangiovese also is generally an excellent value. (while the Montevertine was in a much better balance alcohol-wise at 12.5 comp to the 14.5 of the Perlato - not a fan of the high-gradation at which some reds come in these days, gone the time when Bdx standard was 12-13 %...). (correction - just checked back as I wasn't so sure anymore: the 2007 PdB is a Sangiovese/CS blend, they switched to 100% Sangiovese only from 2011 on. Perhaps that's why....)

At that notion and while also in the pic - that von Winning sparkling is a recent find: The 2013 vintage had been on sale after Christmas - at EUR 8.00 a real steal. Get it once you see it!

 

[gweilgi]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Haha, mate, you are late by 30 years! Likewise, I grew up with the infamous Müller-Thurgau! You had it better!

Ah, Müller-Thurgau ... a name to strike fear and loathing into the hearts of a certain enervation of wine drinkers.  Germany's answer to the Australian Fruity Lexia.  That said, I have actually had the odd example in restaurants (when plumping for the matching wine offer) that might tempt me to reconsider.  

 

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

The German classification system - still - is one of the most complicated in the wine world. But that is also reflecting the complexity of the 'matter'. With comparatively new categories such as the Großes Gewächs (GG) and now more openly classifying and indicating quality vineyards, first growths etc., they long moved away from the pure must-weight centered, i.e. sugar-content oriented old classification. But there is still room for improvement with regard to transparency, and a lot of (home)work is left to / needs being done by the consumer. But quite true and a shame, the German wine-law from 1971 did much damage to the former quality and reputation, with its focus on "Oechsle". And with its misleading site/vineyard naming and the over-stretching of appellation borders. But most of that has already and still is about to be corrected since. And also well before, there have always been quality-producers for whom "sugar" had always only been a proxy and a means to an end and not a quality token in its own.

A stupendously bad law, not least because the inevitable consequence of winemakers adding sugar (or, in some infamous cases, anti-freeze) to their products in order to achieve desired and lucrative grades of Oechsle was so eminently foreseeable.  

Also correct about the classification system: I find it quite confusing, despite the fact that unlike a great many potential customers I actually speak German.  I also find that many German winemakers still do not employ the possibilities of labelling as they could and should; too few of them, for example, fail to indicate grape variety.  Not all of us are qualified experts.  The use of different names for varietals does not help, either: not everybody knows that the "Schwarzriesling" offered in a German restaurant is nothing other than a Pinot Meunier, or that a "Welschriesling" is quite unrelated to Riesling proper.  

As for stretching appellation borders, does not everyone do that?  What I find annoying is the underhand stretching of boundaries, when winemakers import certain percentages of grapes or must from outside their AOC area in order to increase their production.  When I buy a bottle from a certain area, that is what I expect to get -- not something that was "stretched" with x% of grapes from the next valley over.  

 

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Still, in the end it all comes down to the single producer.

In fact, while I said it as well, there is no such thing as "German Rieslings". Whether coming from the blue and red slates of the sunlit mid-Mosel with its often 'playful' wines (but the region Mosel in itself and its producers is extremely heterogeneous already), from the old vines from the steepest vineyards of the Terrassenmosel, to the no-nonsene wines of the cooler Nahe banks and slopes. Once famous Rheingau "hock", wine of the emperors and kings..... or look at Rheinhessen alone - ranging from the volcanic soils of Alzey over the chalky slopes of Westhofen and Dalsheim, and as such almost bordering on 'burgundian' in stile (like could be said of a few Palatinates (Pinots as well!)), to the almost voluptuous wines from the red soils of the famous Rhine-facing slopes of the 'Roter Hang' (Rothenberg, Pettenthal). This all you can find within a mere fifty kilometres left-bank Rhine alone. All I can say - give them a second chance!

Oh, I do.  I always enjoy experimenting and widening my horizons, and I generally will try everything at least once.  Riesling and German wines in general are no exception.  This is how I discovered Goldriesling on a trip to Dresden -- a very rare cross only planted along the Elbe in Saxony.  

[Ken Gargett]

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

Haha, mate, you are late by 30 years! Likewise, I grew up with the infamous Müller-Thurgau! You had it better!

The German classification system - still - is one of the most complicated in the wine world. But that is also reflecting the complexity of the 'matter'. With comparatively new categories such as the Großes Gewächs (GG) and now more openly classifying and indicating quality vineyards, first growths etc., they long moved away from the pure must-weight centered, i.e. sugar-content oriented old classification. But there is still room for improvement with regard to transparency, and a lot of (home)work is left to / needs being done by the consumer. But quite true and a shame, the German wine-law from 1971 did much damage to the former quality and reputation, with its focus on "Oechsle". And with its misleading site/vineyard naming and the over-stretching of appellation borders. But most of that has already and still is about to be corrected since. And also well before, there have always been quality-producers for whom "sugar" had always only been a proxy and a means to an end and not a quality token in its own.

Still, in the end it all comes down to the single producer.

In fact, while I said it as well, there is no such thing as "German Rieslings". Whether coming from the blue and red slates of the sunlit mid-Mosel with its often 'playful' wines (but the region Mosel in itself and its producers is extremely heterogeneous already), from the old vines from the steepest vineyards of the Terrassenmosel, to the no-nonsene wines of the cooler Nahe banks and slopes. Once famous Rheingau "hock", wine of the emperors and kings..... or look at Rheinhessen alone - ranging from the volcanic soils of Alzey over the chalky slopes of Westhofen and Dalsheim, and as such almost bordering on 'burgundian' in stile (like could be said of a few Palatinates (Pinots as well!)), to the almost voluptuous wines from the red soils of the famous Rhine-facing slopes of the 'Roter Hang' (Rothenberg, Pettenthal). This all you can find within a mere fifty kilometres left-bank Rhine alone. All I can say - give them a second chance!

as is probably obviously, also a big fan. and like burgundy, producers are key - fully agree. 

one point. the GG - Grosses Gewachs - classification is not part of official german law. it is the group of producers (VDP, i think??) who developed it around 15 years ago to try and improve the image of german wines, especially the drier styles. the group contains the top german producers. they have tinkered with it to make it more about the vineyards - a sort of unofficial german version of burgundy's grand cru. 

[Fugu]

2 hours ago, gweilgi said:

A stupendously bad law, not least because the inevitable consequence of winemakers adding sugar (or, in some infamous cases, anti-freeze) to their products in order to achieve desired and lucrative grades of Oechsle was so eminently foreseeable.

Yes, a very bad law under which the industry is suffering till today. But the (mainly Austrian) antifreeze-thing was largely unrelated to that wine law. That had been used to stretch (or fake) high-priced icewine and TBA, which naturally come at low yields.

2 hours ago, gweilgi said:

As for stretching appellation borders, does not everyone do that?  What I find annoying is the underhand stretching of boundaries, when winemakers import certain percentages of grapes or must from outside their AOC area in order to increase their production.  When I buy a bottle from a certain area, that is what I expect to get -- not something that was "stretched" with x% of grapes from the next valley over.

True, but that's a quite different thing in this case. This had been brought about by law! There have mainly been two factors at play in the 1971 law - first the invention of "Großlagen" whereby extending names of the famous villages with famous single vineyards onto a larger area (simply to obscure the true facts and to confuse consumers). And - second stretching good or even top single-vineyards ("Einzellagen") onto a larger area, including many acres of subpar vineyard within those famous plots, with the short-sighted idea to capitalize on the names.

Usage of grapes from different areas (Bereich) is not allowed in 'Qualitätswein', i.e. former QmP or QbA wines (i.e. the majority of quality wine in Germany). What's indicated on the label you'll find in the bottle, the more specifically indicated, the smaller the area of origin. Holding for good producers (i.e. those wines worth drinking) anyway.

2 hours ago, gweilgi said:

I also find that many German winemakers still do not employ the possibilities of labelling as they could and should; too few of them, for example, fail to indicate grape variety.

Grape variety is always found on wine labels in Germany. Actually, German wine labels are some of the strictest with regard to the infomation that needs be shown.

Welschriesling actually is a typical Austrian (and South - East European) varietal. You won't find it in Germany. But as for the naming - different traditional names for the same grape variety you are being faced with everywhere across the globe, aren't you? I think, that's just an historical thing.

 

[Fugu]

1 hour ago, Ken Gargett said:

as is probably obviously, also a big fan. and like burgundy, producers are key - fully agree. 

one point. the GG - Grosses Gewachs - classification is not part of official german law. it is the group of producers (VDP, i think??) who developed it around 15 years ago to try and improve the image of german wines, especially the drier styles. the group contains the top german producers. they have tinkered with it to make it more about the vineyards - a sort of unofficial german version of burgundy's grand cru. 

That is correct Ken. Since VDP had never been agreeing with the law of 1971, and even with the (much later) EU harmonization not much basic had changed 'legally'. They did a lot to promote quality and the 'Lage' again, (VDP Große Lage, VDP Erste Lage etc.) not just through the 'GG' for the dry ones from 'Große Lage'. They set the standard even for non-members.

For everyone who is looking for some orientation, I warmly recommend the "Weinatlas Deutschland" by Braatz et al (and of course Hugh Johnson's World Atlas of Wine).

[El Presidente]

17 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

trust me, i have tried. numerous times. 

I bought a case on your recommendation. I use it as paint thinner. 

It is pure mineral turpentine

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, El Presidente said:

I bought a case on your recommendation. I use it as paint thinner. 

It is pure mineral turpentine

see, everyone knows you are lying. that suggests that you actually do some painting. or housework of any kind. yes, pot kettle, but please! 

and it was a glorious fino, heathen. 

[Colt45]

16 hours ago, Fugu said:

As you are mentioning these, funnily those have been some of the wines/producers we had recently on my bday.

The 1999 Montevertine Rosso was as fresh as could be (plus - their cork is always top-notch). And Tua Rita's plain-Sangiovese also is generally an excellent value. (while the Montevertine was in a much better balance alcohol-wise at 12.5 comp to the 14.5 of the Perlato - not a fan of the high-gradation at which some reds come in these days, gone the time when Bdx standard was 12-13 %...). (correction - just checked back as I wasn't so sure anymore: the 2007 PdB is a Sangiovese/CS blend, they switched to 100% Sangiovese only from 2011 on. Perhaps that's why....)

At that notion and while also in the pic - that von Winning sparkling is a recent find: The 2013 vintage had been on sale after Christmas - at EUR 8.00 a real steal. Get it once you see it!

Cheers will keep an eye out.

[Philc2001]

This Rioja reserva took me by surprise about 2 weeks ago, so I snapped a pic to remember it.

I also like to keep a bottle or two on hand of Zolo Reserve, a stand-in when I'm not being fussy.