The Last Dance (The Bulls)

[Smokecigareveryday]

It is so awesome to see Jordan smoking fine Cuban cigars all through the documentary.  I see him smoking long and slender sizes like corona. 

 

[brutusthebuckeye]

That’s about the only thing I like about Jordan. 
 

Yes he’s the GOAT but he’s also kind of a tool. 
 

 

[Smokecigareveryday]

Are you a Lebron fan?  ?

[brutusthebuckeye]

Lol I am NOT. I was going to add my 2 cents about him but decided not to. I live 20 minutes south of where he’s from and have heard about him since his sophomore year in high school. I was not a fan of his before he left for Miami FYI. 
 

Yes he came back and won a ring in Cleveland but I think he’s a phony and a cry baby. 

[Smokecigareveryday]

You are right about that.  He wants to take all the credit when he wins and blames his teammates when he loses. His finals record speaks itself- 3 wins and 6 losses and got swept 2 times in the final. 

[brutusthebuckeye]

When he said he’s the “GOAT”now because he beat the 73 win Warriors I just lol. 
 

Jordan was fun to watch. I’m 44 so I remember when he first came into the league. Jordan wasn’t a diva like Lebron is. 

[joeypots]

I haven't got to The Last Dance yet, I'm sure I'll watch it based on ESPN's record of making great sports documentaries. If you haven't seen, O.J.: Made In America, I recommend it. It won an Academy Award for documentary, deservedly so. http://www.espn.com/watch?id=6fea1ca2-a6e0-480f-8e73-05927978e5d9&om-navmethod=espn:globalsearch:results

Being from Massachusetts I always like to remind people about Bill Russel's record. GOAT or not.

11 NBA Championship

2 NCAA Championships

1 Olymipic Gold medal

Russell's achievements stand alone in all professional sports. No one else comes close. 

And, I know that he played in a different age. I'm just a fan.

[SmokyFontaine]

2 hours ago, joeypots said:

I haven't got to The Last Dance yet, I'm sure I'll watch it based on ESPN's record of making great sports documentaries. If you haven't seen, O.J.: Made In America, I recommend it. It won an Academy Award for documentary, deservedly so. http://www.espn.com/watch?id=6fea1ca2-a6e0-480f-8e73-05927978e5d9&om-navmethod=espn:globalsearch:results

Being from Massachusetts I always like to remind people about Bill Russel's record. GOAT or not.

11 NBA Championship

2 NCAA Championships

1 Olymipic Gold medal

Russell's achievements stand alone in all professional sports. No one else comes close. 

And, I know that he played in a different age. I'm just a fan.

Oh Bill Russell is the greatest winner of all time. No question about it. He was amazing, and critical on near a dozen championship teams. But he's like, the 4th or 5th center of all-time. (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell/Hakeem) If you start to include other positions, he'd be lucky to be top 10 all-time. Incredible player though. No doubt.

I've been devouring the last dance. I hated MJ for the latter half of his career (and as much of Bird's as I remember, actually), but when I stop and look back? Wow. He changed the way the entire game is played, single-handedly. Now with everyone traveling into 4 step step-back jumpers, and pulling up from two dribbles inside half-court the game is changing again, but a group of players led that movement, not just Curry. MJ helped build the world's most successful athletic brand, shaped Kobe Bryant's game, and the social impact on an entire generation is just unparalleled. My 13yro son and I watch the Last Dance every weekend, and each night there will be a couple moments where he looks over at me and will say something like "that's what you tell me at practice sometimes" (I'm a volunteer coach in our area). Brings a smile to my face, and is really neat that he and I get to share the stories of great players and teams from the era that I think was the most competitive and skilled the league has ever witnessed (early 80's to late 90's)

[Smokecigareveryday]

The fact that we are still talking about MJ after 20 years is that he's the GOAT in all sports.  He's a cultural icon. I would rank:

1)Michael Jordan

2) Pele

3) Muhammad Ali

in that order. 

 

7 hours ago, SmokyFontaine said:

Oh Bill Russell is the greatest winner of all time. No question about it. He was amazing, and critical on near a dozen championship teams. But he's like, the 4th or 5th center of all-time. (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell/Hakeem) If you start to include other positions, he'd be lucky to be top 10 all-time. Incredible player though. No doubt.

I've been devouring the last dance. I hated MJ for the latter half of his career (and as much of Bird's as I remember, actually), but when I stop and look back? Wow. He changed the way the entire game is played, single-handedly. Now with everyone traveling into 4 step step-back jumpers, and pulling up from two dribbles inside half-court the game is changing again, but a group of players led that movement, not just Curry. MJ helped build the world's most successful athletic brand, shaped Kobe Bryant's game, and the social impact on an entire generation is just unparalleled. My 13yro son and I watch the Last Dance every weekend, and each night there will be a couple moments where he looks over at me and will say something like "that's what you tell me at practice sometimes" (I'm a volunteer coach in our area). Brings a smile to my face, and is really neat that he and I get so share the stories of great players and teams from the era that I think was the most competitive and skilled the league has ever witnessed (early 80's to late 90's)

Kobe tried to emulate MJ's moves from his last 3 Championships with the Bulls.  Pre-93 Jordan was not human at all.  He totally defied gravity in the air. 

[joeypots]

1 hour ago, SmokyFontaine said:

Oh Bill Russell is the greatest winner of all time. No question about it. He was amazing, and critical on near a dozen championship teams. But he's like, the 4th or 5th center of all-time. (Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell/Hakeem) If you start to include other positions, he'd be lucky to be top 10 all-time. Incredible player though. No doubt.

 

I get it, a totally different era and there is no doubt that the level of athleticism has increase to the point that many of the old guys in their prime wouldn't be able to keep up. But I'm a homer and am a fan of Russell for many reasons. Bobby Orr? Don't go there.?

[Edik]

On 5/5/2020 at 7:11 PM, Smokecigareveryday said:

The fact that we are still talking about MJ after 20 years is that he's the GOAT in all sports.  He's a cultural icon. I would rank:

1)Michael Jordan

2) Pele

3) Muhammad Ali

in that order. 

 

Kobe tried to emulate MJ's moves from his last 3 Championships with the Bulls.  Pre-93 Jordan was not human at all.  He totally defied gravity in the air. 

I love MJ. He is certainly the basketball GOAT. However, I think Pele is the team sports GOAT. He had a world following even though he played during the 60s and 70s. Even nowadays he is still a famous figure. He greatly contributed to Brazil becoming the most successful national football team - his 3 world championships are unlikely to ever be matched. Also, I personally think Pele was more skilful in handling the media and the political pressure that comes with being a huge celebrity. 

[Smokecigareveryday]

If you ask a lot of sports journalists in the UK most would put Messi over Pele as the GOAT which is blasphemy. 

[havanaclub]

Remember the interview when LeBron said “I am the GOAT” after his championship in Cleveland? Who says that? And what GOAT would say that? You don’t see MJ, Tyson, Ali, Brady, Jack or Tiger, or Wayne say garbage like this. If you have to announce you are the GOAT...well imo, you aren’t the GOAT.

 

BTW MJ is the best, even if someone beats any of his records...he still is the best.

 

On a side note, did you know that Gretzky held something like 56 records when he retired and only one has been broken. Insane. GOAT in hockey with out a doubt. And his record of 50G in 39 games will never be broken. Never!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ken Gargett]

45 minutes ago, havanaclub said:

Remember the interview when LeBron said “I am the GOAT” after his championship in Cleveland? Who says that? And what GOAT would say that? You don’t see MJ, Tyson, Ali, Brady, Jack or Tiger, or Wayne say garbage like this. If you have to announce you are the GOAT...well imo, you aren’t the GOAT.

 

BTW MJ is the best, even if someone beats any of his records...he still is the best.

 

On a side note, did you know that Gretzky held something like 56 records when he retired and only one has been broken. Insane. GOAT in hockey with out a doubt. And his record of 50G in 39 games will never be broken. Never!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

actually, Ali said it all the time. "i am the greatest"!! but you had to love that. 

went to one ice hockey game in my life. back when i was in DC. wanted to watch gretzky. he was wonderful to watch. the best comparison for me for aussies is the way darren lockyer seemed to glide through defences. gretzky seemed to glide when others had to work. it was all great fun. his kings up 3-0, largely thanks to WG, with almost no time to go (at which time 2/3rds of the crowd left). DC came back and levelled and then i think several periods of extra time? might have been just the one but seemed a heap. 

[Ken Gargett]

1 hour ago, Edik said:

I love MJ. He is certainly the basketball GOAT. However, I think Pele is the team sports GOAT. He had a world following even though he played during the 60s and 70s. Even nowadays he is still a famous figure. He greatly contributed to Brazil becoming the most successful national football team - his 3 world championships are unlikely to ever be matched. Also, I personally think Pele was more skilful in handling the media and the political pressure that comes with being a huge celebrity. 

agree with MJ for basketball.

and agree with Pele for soccer. but with the greatest respect to Pele, his record does not come within cooee of don bradman. no one does. i know it will always be comparing apples and oranges but no one has dominated their sport to the extent he has.

two possibles? there are two in very minor (non team) sports (without meaning to denigrate those sports, and one might not even be a sport). walter lindrum in billiards. heather mackay in women's squash. she was especially extraordinary. won every game she played for something like 16 years, every title, every honour. but not just won them, i think it was something like a 15 year period where she did not drop, not just a game, but did not lose a single set. imagine if a tennis player went 15 years without dropping a single set!! after she finished, she moved to the states and won the racquetball three of four years, i think, and is in the USA racquetball hall of fame. 

as an aside, a decade or so ago, when i lived on the gold coast, late one night i was headed around to the versace hotel which was just down the road from me to catch up with the sommelier about something. was walking through it and saw a bloke that i knew i knew but could not place him. he was having a drink with someone. i waved. he waved back. got about ten yards further on and it dawned. Pele!! 

i mentioned this to the somm and he said he was there for a few days but that someone on staff was in serious trouble, as they had served him a drink. everyone was under strict instructions that under no circumstances was he to be served any drinks. was there following rehab, apparently. i gather not for the first time. be hard not to imagine that the intense public spotlight every moment would not give anyone a problem. i also said to the somm i regretted not going and saying hi and shaking his hand but i did not want to intrude. the somm told me i would not have got within ten yards. there were, very discreet, security staff which were there to stop anyone going near him. not a fun way to live. 

 

[Smokecigareveryday]

MJ is 6 for 6 in the finals. Never lost. 

1 hour ago, havanaclub said:

Remember the interview when LeBron said “I am the GOAT” after his championship in Cleveland? Who says that? And what GOAT would say that? You don’t see MJ, Tyson, Ali, Brady, Jack or Tiger, or Wayne say garbage like this. If you have to announce you are the GOAT...well imo, you aren’t the GOAT.

 

BTW MJ is the best, even if someone beats any of his records...he still is the best.

 

On a side note, did you know that Gretzky held something like 56 records when he retired and only one has been broken. Insane. GOAT in hockey with out a doubt. And his record of 50G in 39 games will never be broken. Never!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lebron is 3 out of 9 in the finals even with super teams he created.  MJ is 6 for 6 in the finals. Never lost with 2 3 peats.  Eyes don't lie. When you compare Lebron and MJ highlights on youtube it's a night and day.  MJ is poetry in motion. 

[havanaclub]

MJ is 6 for 6 in the finals. Never lost. 
Lebron is 3 out of 9 in the finals even with super teams he created.  MJ is 6 for 6 in the finals. Never lost with 2 3 peats.  Eyes don't lie. When you compare Lebron and MJ highlights on youtube it's a night and day.  MJ is poetry in motion. 

I agree. MJ all the way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Edik]

9 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

agree with MJ for basketball.

and agree with Pele for soccer. but with the greatest respect to Pele, his record does not come within cooee of don bradman. no one does. i know it will always be comparing apples and oranges but no one has dominated their sport to the extent he has.

two possibles? there are two in very minor (non team) sports (without meaning to denigrate those sports, and one might not even be a sport). walter lindrum in billiards. heather mackay in women's squash. she was especially extraordinary. won every game she played for something like 16 years, every title, every honour. but not just won them, i think it was something like a 15 year period where she did not drop, not just a game, but did not lose a single set. imagine if a tennis player went 15 years without dropping a single set!! after she finished, she moved to the states and won the racquetball three of four years, i think, and is in the USA racquetball hall of fame. 

as an aside, a decade or so ago, when i lived on the gold coast, late one night i was headed around to the versace hotel which was just down the road from me to catch up with the sommelier about something. was walking through it and saw a bloke that i knew i knew but could not place him. he was having a drink with someone. i waved. he waved back. got about ten yards further on and it dawned. Pele!! 

i mentioned this to the somm and he said he was there for a few days but that someone on staff was in serious trouble, as they had served him a drink. everyone was under strict instructions that under no circumstances was he to be served any drinks. was there following rehab, apparently. i gather not for the first time. be hard not to imagine that the intense public spotlight every moment would not give anyone a problem. i also said to the somm i regretted not going and saying hi and shaking his hand but i did not want to intrude. the somm told me i would not have got within ten yards. there were, very discreet, security staff which were there to stop anyone going near him. not a fun way to live. 

 

You've met Pelé! that's amazing! 

Interesting bit about the alcohol. Pelé is famous for not drinking - during his playing career many of his teammates succumbed to alcoholism. I think this is due to the fact that the 60s and 70s saw a nasty dictatorship took over the country. Football was its panem et circenses strategy. So football players not only had to live with intense media scrutiny, but the regime was heavy handed in pressuring them to act "patriotically". Pelé himself was once interrogated by the police regarding potential links with communists. All of this to say that being a famous Brazilian football player in those times was a blessing and a curse. I tried looking for reports that he's having problems with alcohol and found nothing. I'll dig further. 

[Ken Gargett]

11 minutes ago, Edik said:

You've met Pelé! that's amazing! 

Interesting bit about the alcohol. Pelé is famous for not drinking - during his playing career many of his teammates succumbed to alcoholism. I think this is due to the fact that the 60s and 70s saw a nasty dictatorship took over the country. Football was its panem et circenses strategy. So football players not only had to live with intense media scrutiny, but the regime was heavy handed in pressuring them to act "patriotically". Pelé himself was once interrogated by the police regarding potential links with communists. All of this to say that being a famous Brazilian football player in those times was a blessing and a curse. I tried looking for reports that he's having problems with alcohol and found nothing. I'll dig further. 

no, almost met. not quite.

i must confess that i know nothing about his drinking or not drinking but just going on what they told me that night. a real problem. it may be that there is nothing to it. be nice to think that. 

 

[Edik]

2 hours ago, Ken Gargett said:

no, almost met. not quite.

i must confess that i know nothing about his drinking or not drinking but just going on what they told me that night. a real problem. it may be that there is nothing to it. be nice to think that. 

 

As a big Pelé fan I would like to believe so. From what I could gather, he's been dealing with mental health problems. It seems that the more limited his mobility gets the more he's unhappy. Time can be cruel, even for the greats... 

[Bill Hayes]

Poor man's MJ - a siglo 2 and airmax 95 ?

[JohnnyO]

Pele scored 2 goals in a World Cup final at age 17. Kinda like scoring two touchdowns in a Superbowl at age 17. Jordan is just more marketable and ya'll believe the hype. It took him 7 years to get to the Finals. Who stopped him along the way? Bird, Magic, Thomas all winning multiple championships. During Jordan's six rings there was no competition, he had a lot of help (Grant, Pippen, Rodman) never went to a 7th game. Top 5 as a #2 yes. Top 5 iso-ball player? Yes. Greatest scorer? Yes Wouldn't have him as a starter on my team. There are two guys way ahead of him in the ability to play 1-5... Magic and Lebron. Jordan's career was over after his 13th season, 18 seasons later Lebron is still at the top of his game. 

[SmokyFontaine]

9 minutes ago, JohnnyO said:

Pele scored 2 goals in a World Cup final at age 17. Kinda like scoring two touchdowns in a Superbowl at age 17. Jordan is just more marketable and ya'll believe the hype. It took him 7 years to get to the Finals. Who stopped him along the way? Bird, Magic, Thomas all winning multiple championships. During Jordan's six rings there was no competition, he had a lot of help (Grant, Pippen, Rodman) never went to a 7th game. Top 5 as a #2 yes. Top 5 iso-ball player? Yes. Greatest scorer? Yes Wouldn't have him as a starter on my team. There are two guys way ahead of him in the ability to play 1-5... Magic and Lebron. Jordan's career was over after his 13th season, 18 seasons later Lebron is still at the top of his game. 

Hunh? Haa haa. I couldn't disagree more. Who has Lebron beaten in the Eastern Conference en route to all those finals appearances? Mostly bums. From 84-90 the Eastern Conference representative was the NBA Champion 4 times (Boston & Detroit twice). Those are some of the great teams in history. Some of the greatest players of the past 50yrs. Those were the guys MJ was playing. Once he topped them in the East he got to play 60 win teams from the West (and beat them every time). Portland was the only non-60 game winner they beat in the Finals out of 6. Lebron has beat a team with 60 or more wins...once. During MJ's run, every year he didn't win the MVP, he defeated the MVP in the Finals. 

During Jordan's Bulls career, the Eastern Conference won 10/13 championships. They dominated (and the West was damn good too with LA, Portland, Utah, Seattle, Houston, San Antonio). Since the Bulls dynasty ended, 14/21 champions have come out of the West. Nobody questions it's the stronger conference. So much so, they've floated the idea of not setting playoff seeds by East/West anymore because of how pathetic it looks to have a team with a bad losing record still make the playoffs in the East.

Lebron is amazing. I think his physical attributes are probably unmatched. For skill, durability, competitiveness, winning, he's in the top 5 discussion, but what Jordan did to the whole league won't be matched again. Jordan was an a-hole, surely a terrible teammate, but he was cold. If you needed a play or a shot, that's who you hand the ball to. I hated him for most of his career...but he's the greatest to ever do it.  

[JohnnyO]

The Houston Rockets won back to back titles not having 60 wins either year, 47 wins as a 6th seed in 95. Lebron beat a 73 win GS team in the Finals. So your 60 win stat is not the measuring stick that you think it is. John

[Ken Gargett]

On 6/3/2020 at 3:27 AM, JohnnyO said:

Pele scored 2 goals in a World Cup final at age 17. Kinda like scoring two touchdowns in a Superbowl at age 17. Jordan is just more marketable and ya'll believe the hype. It took him 7 years to get to the Finals. Who stopped him along the way? Bird, Magic, Thomas all winning multiple championships. During Jordan's six rings there was no competition, he had a lot of help (Grant, Pippen, Rodman) never went to a 7th game. Top 5 as a #2 yes. Top 5 iso-ball player? Yes. Greatest scorer? Yes Wouldn't have him as a starter on my team. There are two guys way ahead of him in the ability to play 1-5... Magic and Lebron. Jordan's career was over after his 13th season, 18 seasons later Lebron is still at the top of his game. 

a few things with this.

as i have said here and elsewhere, pele is not only the player who is the best i ever saw but also my favourite player (well, him and henri) and what he did in the world cup was astonishing. from reports, he was a, if not the, dominant player in the final. and not fully fit. i'm not sure a WR, at any age, could do enough in a game to match his level there (the position doesn't allow it - a QB might be able to do it). but i would dispute that it is like a 17 year old in a superbowl. or any game of NFL. imagine a 17 year up against grown men who are keen to grind him into pulp. it would be a complete mismatch. men against boys. i don't think that this comparison holds any water at all. but agree with you on the extraordinary performance of pele. 

i can't claim to have any great insight into basketball or be an expert but i used to watch a lot of it. especially jordan. he was one of the main reasons for my interest. i saw a reasonable amount of the others you mention. not as much as i saw of jordan but enough. he was a step up on all others for me. understand people will always disagree over these things. but to suggest there was no competition in his era is way off beam, for me. there was severe competition. to suggest otherwise, i believe, is an insult both to other teams and players and also to jordan and his team. 

you compare jordan and lebron for longevity. and both have amazing stats which can be read in many ways. you note lebron is in his 18th season. remember jordan went off and played baseball and retired and came back. you could argue that makes his achievements even more monumental. or not. but take it this way. lebron is now 35. at 35, jordan had just won his 6th (and last) championship. jordan stuck with one team (if we ignore the pissing about with the wizards or whoever at the very end). lebron has moved about and obviously attempted to get with teams and players which will give him more chance to win championships (fair enough if that is what you aim for) for himself, rather than the team. and yet jordan has twice the championships. twice! if jordan had gone team shopping to be with the best team every year, he'd have never lost. 

sure, jordan had plenty of help but to suggest lebron doesn't - especially when he has deliberately chased just that - is simply wrong. and magic and the lakers during his time was a parade of superstars. 

although he had plenty of help (how many players win the lot without being in a great team?), you can think of it this way. with jordan, the bulls won 91, 92, 93. he retired/left and they lost in 94 and 95. he returned and they won 96, 97, 98. pretty clear that he was the difference and a massive difference at that. 

leaving aside actual playing highlights, i have two memories of jordan that show just how dominant he was, for me, at least. 

one was a game that was on the line with seconds to go. time out had been called and the bulls had the ball, wrong end of the court, four or five seconds left. 

the cameras got shoved in both huddles. one coach was drawing all manner of plans, giving every direction possible. do this, go here, guard him, do that. in the bulls huddle, phil jackson (i think, the bulls coach?) simply said to whoever had the ball, throw it in and then give it to michael (or words to that effect). game on the line, give it to michael. simple as that. and yes, they did that and he scored and win them the game. 

the other was one of the very last finals he played, from memory. it may have even been the very last (to be honest, if you told me it was one of the first, i'd believe it, but that bis what i recall). i had left the states by then but happened to be back and stuck in an airport and watched the game. i remember the lead-up. whoever they were playing had one of the era's great players - may even have been one of the players picked ahead of jordan in the draft (i'm thinking drexler but that might be wrong). they compared every aspect of their games and history. turns out that michael was better in pretty much every area, except one. three point shooting. so, of course, the papers were full of questions as to whether jordan was any good at three pointers. i know that seems bizarre but i remember it well, even if my timing might be out. jordan was interviewed and said that these articles and questions were not fair because the way they played, he was not a three point shooter. it was not how the bulls did things. but questions remained.

by half time, he had 5 or 6 3-pointers from memory (pretty sure it was six - whatever it was, it was a truly amazing display) and he just pointed at the press box. i think that, at the time, was a record for a final (and he had beaten it within a half). just wanted people to know he could do it if he wanted to, and chose a finals game to do it. the extraordinary self-belief that takes, and the ability to match that, is amazing. 

i believe that the official NBA website describes jordan as the greatest of all time and lebron as one of the greatest. i think they got it right. 

anyway, for me, all three would enhance any team, but jordan is the superior player.