True Micro-printing

[ATGroom]

This might not be new to everybody, but it was new to me. Someone emailed into CCW to point out some true micro-printing on the Cohiba band. Something to add to the fake identification toolkit.

[cigarros]

Hi Alex! Yeah! This anillos printed by Mr Vrijdag factory. It creates difficulties for illegal printers. And for simple guys knowing these nuances is good. Thanks for sharing this 

[NSXCIGAR]

Interesting. Can we try and pinpoint the date of the update? 

[Fugu]

Always been there.  

I often wonder whether it is so bright if we disclose all those details so openly .... just saying...?. A double-edged sword for sure.

[NSXCIGAR]

1 hour ago, Fugu said:

Always been there.  

I often wonder whether it is so bright if we disclose all those details so openly .... just saying...?. A double-edged sword for sure.

Anyone looking at the band to copy one would surely see it. If something can't be physically duplicated who cares who sees it or knows about it? Have a field day trying.

[Philc2001]

Microprinting at this level, with this type of material is not cheap. Counterfeiters are highly unlikely to copy it, unless the bounty is worth the cost and effort, and with some high-end cohibas it may be worth the cost. As cigars get more expensive, and printing gets cheaper, there will be a point where the cost is justifiable. 

Of course, many counterfeiters today don't even bother to apply the labels to the box or the bands on the cigars... lol

[NSXCIGAR]

Even as equipment costs fall it still requires a serious capital outlay for microprinting at that level and the materials used for Cohiba bands. If you were embarking on a large-scale counterfeiting operation I suppose it would be worth it but most fake CC production is very decentralized and is generally very poor quality. Much better to sell fakes that cost $1 for $10 than fakes that cost $10 for $50. 

[mprach024]

Lol, 1 in 10,000 could actually spot a counterfeit, maybe less.  Why spend any money at all trying to convince that one guy.  Especially when there’s a fresh batch of cruise shippers dropped off twice a day in their sandals and socks, happily buying themself a “cubano see-gar” from the nice chap in the marina.  

[ATGroom]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

I often wonder whether it is so bright if we disclose all those details so openly .... just saying...?. A double-edged sword for sure.

As others have said, the point of these features is not that nobody knows about them aside from Habanos insiders, it's that they're difficult for the fakers to replicate. I would go one step further and say that these features are useless unless people know about them.

What is really dangerous IMO and something I am conscious of with CCW is providing high fidelity source material on things that are rare but easy to replicate once you have the original.

For example, Dunhill bands. Some of you will probably recall about 10 years ago there was a batch of fake Dunhill circulating that had "Dunhill" written on both sides of the band, not "Dunhill" on the left and "Havana" on the right, as the genuine bands have. There were also discrepancies with how the various lines interacted in the logo. This was because the fakers didn't have access to an original band and had to design their fake from scratch based on pictures of it on the cigar, and made a few mistakes. These days you could pretty much just download the scan off CCW and press print.

[ATGroom]

4 hours ago, Fugu said:

Always been there.  

Actually, I remember when these bands came out the Habanos press release said that they contained micro-printing as a security feature. I was expecting something about the same size as the serial number 'micro-printing' on the seals, which is small but definitely visible to the naked eye, if not quite legible. I figured they must mean the COHIBA text between the heads.

FWIW, the head is about 1mm. There is space for 10 "Cohibas" in it, plus there is a empty space between each one. So the size of this text is about 0.05mm.

This also explains two things I have always wondered about:

In 2013 the Behike band was revised with only a seemingly small change to the pattern of the hologram. The reason was because micro-printing was introduced.

 

Also in 2013, the hologram on the seal changed slightly, but all consumers noticed was that previously the Habanos had been blurred when looked at straight on, while the Aqui logo was clear. The post-2013 holo behaved in the opposite way, with the Habanos being clear while the aqui was blurred. This seemed like a weird change to make deliberately, so I thought it must be just supplier material change or something rather than a deliberate design choice.

The real reason for this change was the introduction of micro-printing to the hologram.

 

 

[NSXCIGAR]

I've always thought that high-end fakes would just use genuine bands and boxes. Easy enough to come by I suppose. Why even attempt to fake something like that when you're trying to sell fake Behike or Siglo VI? 

The real problem is of course with vintage, much of which is unbanded. Or with cigars like Dunhill or Davidoff where bands are simple enough to be faked well nowadays and they sell for ridiculous sums. I remember when Dunhill Cabinettas were going for $1,500. Now it's $5,000+. 

[Fugu]

15 hours ago, NSXCIGAR said:

Anyone looking at the band to copy one would surely see it.

Took specialist folk like CCW or this very forum eight years to find out...

 

12 hours ago, ATGroom said:

As others have said, the point of these features is not that nobody knows about them aside from Habanos insiders, it's that they're difficult for the fakers to replicate.

Two aspects to it - one being, as you say, introducing complications.The other being staying ahead of the game.

12 hours ago, ATGroom said:

I would go one step further and say that these features are useless unless people know about them.

Then, one has to wonder why not HSA or the printer aren't openly "educating" their trusting customers in all aspects to their fullest depth. Even in the old seals, there were deliberate "blemishes" in the print, unknown to or at least going unnoticed by the "general public". And there are certainly some new measures introduced today that are not meant to be spotted by the average user.

It is as with paper money. There's tokens for the user and there's specific, undisclosed features, which can only be identified by the specialist / the resp. authorities. Well, true, Alex, perhaps simple microprinting isn't one of them. But cigars, certain cigars I should say, today are quickly nearing a region of printed/-ing money. The value is not in the material the value is in what's written on it....

12 hours ago, ATGroom said:

but all consumers noticed was that previously the Habanos had been blurred when looked at straight on

Just as an aside - might not be news to you - not simply blurred, it was a 3D-motion effect holo, with the word Habanos standing out and moving when tilted sidewards (under the right lighting).

 

12 hours ago, ATGroom said:

The real reason for this change was the introduction of micro-printing to the hologram.

In actual fact, that 'Habanos' microprinting that you are alluding to in the above, though slightly differing, had been there from the very beginning, even in the first hologram version. But other features had been changed/added, incl. new microprinting...

[Fugu]

11 hours ago, mprach024 said:

Especially when there’s a fresh batch of cruise shippers dropped off twice a day in their sandals and socks, happily buying themself a “cubano see-gar” from the nice chap in the marina.

There are operations out there that are not aiming at the tourist looking for a souvenir... Completely different "markets".

These things are not being made chinchales-like in Cuba.

[NSXCIGAR]

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

Took specialist folk like CCW or this very forum eight years to find out...

Well, most of us have no need to scrutinize bands as we know we trust our vendors, and presumably none of us are looking at it specifically to copy them. 

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

Two aspects to it - one being, as you say, introducing complications.The other being staying ahead of the game.

If the complications are complicated enough you are ahead of the game for a while.

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

Then, one has to wonder why not HSA or the printer aren't openly "educating" their trusting customers in all aspects to their fullest depth.

They do but it's pretty half-hearted and could surely do a better job with PR: http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/nuevo-holograma-en-la-anilla-de-cohiba-behike/

6 hours ago, Fugu said:

It is as with paper money. There's tokens for the user and there's specific, undisclosed features, which can only be identified by the specialist / the resp. authorities

Money is very different. It can circulate for a long time without being exposed or scrutinized. The banks are the clearing houses and most counterfeit bills end up there and affect them. We actually consume the cigars and know immediately if they are fake. 

[ATGroom]

12 hours ago, Fugu said:

In actual fact, that 'Habanos' microprinting that you are alluding to in the above, though slightly differing, had been there from the very beginning, even in the first hologram version. But other features had been changed/added, incl. new microprinting...

Sorry, you are correct, microprinting on seal was always there. I had taken a photo of old seal and saw no microprinting however, I think this was my mistake and light or focus was just a little off.

[Baccy]

How do I view something that small? I tried using a magnifying glass and it's still impossible to see. I mean I can kind of see the lines of text but I cant read the microprints...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[ATGroom]

34 minutes ago, Baccy said:

How do I view something that small? I tried using a magnifying glass and it's still impossible to see. I mean I can kind of see the lines of text but I cant read the microprints...

It's not easy. I'm using a camera with a macro lens positioned about 5cm away from the band. Not sure how else you could make an image of them. I tried scanning them at 1200dpi and I can see the lines but the text isn't legible.

I would say you need at least 20X magnification to make it out. 40X would be better. You can get jeweller's loops and magnifying glasses that do those kind of numbers. Or otherwise a cheap microscope.

[Baccy]

 

On 10/8/2020 at 7:43 AM, ATGroom said:

It's not easy. I'm using a camera with a macro lens positioned about 5cm away from the band. Not sure how else you could make an image of them. I tried scanning them at 1200dpi and I can see the lines but the text isn't legible.

I would say you need at least 20X magnification to make it out. 40X would be better. You can get jeweller's loops and magnifying glasses that do those kind of numbers. Or otherwise a cheap microscope.

Ok so I finally found myself a little pocket microscope which works perfect for this purpose. I've checked out many of my Cohiba sticks. They pretty much all have the microprint except for the 2013 BHK 54. I know that you stated that the Behike band was revised in 13. So were the 13 bands supposed to have it or starting in 2014? These 13 BHK54 sticks look perfect in every way and the bands look the same as the newer ones, they just don't contain the microprint. I bought them as singles so I hope I didn't get gipped...?

edit: I think I just found my answer here: http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/nuevo-holograma-en-la-anilla-de-cohiba-behike/?age-verified=3f44e542ed

[ATGroom]

20 hours ago, Baccy said:

Ok so I finally found myself a little pocket microscope which works perfect for this purpose. I've checked out many of my Cohiba sticks. They pretty much all have the microprint except for the 2013 BHK 54. I know that you stated that the Behike band was revised in 13. So were the 13 bands supposed to have it or starting in 2014? These 13 BHK54 sticks look perfect in every way and the bands look the same as the newer ones, they just don't contain the microprint. I bought them as singles so I hope I didn't get gipped...?

edit: I think I just found my answer here: http://www.habanos.com/en/noticias/nuevo-holograma-en-la-anilla-de-cohiba-behike/?age-verified=3f44e542ed

Yep, I think you got it. It's when the bands changed to the checker-board pattern. This design was first observed in 2013 I believe, but as usual there was a period of overlap when both designs were present.